Jesus Followed Satan OR Satan Had Physical Power Over Jesus?

[DuckieLady]

God cannot deny HIMSELF , HIS TRUTH . HE is truth .
man fell , The word became flesh and prevailed .
GOD always knew what HE would have to do to save man who cannot save himself .
Lord who then can be saved . With man this is IM THA POSSIBLE . But NOT with GOD .
Said the WORD of GOD who had become flesh . Me thinks its high time
we start reminding all that breathes air , was born of woman to BELIEVE ON HIM .
Hey duckie . I was wondering if you have noticed the same thing i have .
It seems in these latter years many have been doing all
NOT TO REMIND ALL of the DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST
but rather trying to implant all kinds of ideas about how those WHO DO NOT BELEIVE will be saved .
IT seems i see that a lot in these last hours . RATHER than reminding the church about the DIRE NEED
to actually tell peoples of the DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE JESUS IS THE CHRIST
they go about doing all to convince the church , HEY its just not necessary as they pump
out all kinds of ideas about HOW folks be saved without HAVING TO BELEIVE .
That sure dont sound LIKE what CHRIST taught and later the apostels taught .
THEY all sure seemed so very adamant about the DIRE NEED TO BELEIVE and even warned
what would come upon those who BELIEVED NOT . ever get the feeling we are being seduced to beleive a lie , cause i sure do .

I have... Unfortunately.

 

[Stumpmaster]

not wanting to come to terms with it.

There's nothing to come to terms with. To date only 1 vote has been cast, presumably by the author of this conflatory thread.

 

[DuckieLady]

There's nothing to come to terms with. To date only 1 vote has been cast, presumably by the author of this conflatory thread.

I didn't vote because I didn't see an option I could agree with outright.

Satan had to approach God to get to Job, in order to accuse him. God allowed it.

I think there's a similarity here.

Satan wanted the opportunity to destroy and steal from God, but God all knowing. So, for the test there was reward.

 

[face2face]

@Wrangler Once you understand a Father testing a nation and here in Matthew 4, a Son; the record begins to make more sense.

Why “Forty days?”

Well, its Israel’s failure isn't it? Israel in Deut 8:3 all ended without perfection achieved!

I'm going to make a list of unanswered questions for everyone to see and hopefully as this list grows the idea of a fallen angel here will become more and more ridiculous.

1. Wrangler is not able to show another instance in all the Gospel record of Jesus having an interaction with this so called creature of darkness.
2. Wrangler is not able to show how the context is a Father testing His son like He tested those in the wilderness
3. He cannot prove the identity of the tempter, whether it be a person, or the Lords own mind - forcing fallen angel theology into the record
4. There is no back story to draw on in the OT, as the context is Deuteronomy and the Torah is silent on such a creature

1 Peter 4:1

Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin.

What is being revealed in Luke 4 is Christ suffering in the body of his flesh and not some imaginative evil angel trying to persuade him to use his power selfishly.

Christians minds certainly run away on them!

F2F

 

[Wrangler]

There's nothing to come to terms with. To date only 1 vote has been cast, presumably by the author of this conflatory thread.

No, I did not vote yet. Still pondering the various posts.

As far as nothing to come to terms with, I realize I did not post the verses. Worse, I quoted the wrong one. I corrected the OP to refer to Luke 4:5 while leaving 4:9.

5 Then the devil took (led) him up and revealed to him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.​

9 Then the devil took (led) him to Jerusalem.​

NLT (NRSV)​

The NLT translation renders is "took" meaning physically had power over the man. The NRSV translation renders it led. Either take is disturbing; the latter for it suggests the devil has influence over Jesus; the former is even more disturbing for the devil to move a man in time and space. And if fallen angels have physical power over us humans, why don't they exercise it regularly?

Not sure how you conclude there is nothing to reconcile, nothing to come to terms there.

 

[Wrangler]

@Wrangler Once you understand a Father testing a nation and here in Matthew 4

Why are you referencing Matthew 4 rather than Luke 4?

 

[face2face]

So much eisegesis.

So little with your OP

 

[face2face]

Why are you referencing Matthew 4 rather than Luke 4?

Happy to deal with either records Wrangler

 

[Stumpmaster]

No, I did not vote yet. Still pondering the various posts.

As far as nothing to come to terms with, I realize I did not post the verses. Worse, I quoted the wrong one. I corrected the OP to refer to Luke 4:5 while leaving 4:9.

5 Then the devil took (led) him up and revealed to him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.​

9 Then the devil took (led) him to Jerusalem.​

NLT (NRSV)​

The NLT translation renders is "took" meaning physically had power over the man. The NRSV translation renders it led. Either take is disturbing; the latter for it suggests the devil has influence over Jesus; the former is even more disturbing for the devil to move a man in time and space. And if fallen angels have physical power over us humans, why don't they exercise it regularly?

Not sure how you conclude there is nothing to reconcile, nothing to come to terms there.

The invention here of a controversy over Christ's willingness to be tempted by Satan is noted but not endorsed.

 

[face2face]

@Wrangler

"If you be the Son of God" Luke 4:3

Interesting question given the so called power of your evil creature! Only those testing Christ like the Pharisees would ask such a thing!

and saying, “You who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross.” Matthew 27:40

I can show you from the Word why this testing was required by God upon Israel and His Son but I'm interested in your support as to why your evil creature wants to prove his Sonship?

In your answer can you provide the back story, some context to why this was important and how it was that he didnt know.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Verse 13 “Ended all the temptation” – The Grk: “Had completed every kind of temptation”

1 John 2:15-16

@Wrangler why every kind of temptation?

What was the point in God allowing His Son to go through every kind of temptation?

To show what?

 

[APAK]

Thanks for chiming in, Apak!

This subject isn't as straightforward as those who believe in a fallen evil angel might make it seem.

From my experience, directly confronting this belief rarely leads to understanding. Instead, a better approach is to encourage them to explore the context and the reasons behind the Spirit leading Christ into the wilderness....this can be a good starting point for discussion.

It's clear that many today don't read the Word with enough care to truly discern its context and apply it properly in their interpretation.

@Wrangler

First key

Israel was “led” by the spirit as a test of sonship

2 Remember how the Lord your God led you all the way in the wilderness these forty years, to humble and test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands. 3 He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your ancestors had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord. 4 Your clothes did not wear out and your feet did not swell during these forty years. 5 Know then in your heart that as a man disciplines his son, so the Lord your God disciplines you. Deut 8:2,5

The test was now repeated on an individual basis

“When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. Hos 11:1

15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.” Matt 2:15

No supernatural being at all in Deuteronomy

Context to Luke 4 is "if you be the Son of God"

Will Christ remain in Egypt or come out?
Will Christ reject the promptings of his flesh or lay it down?
We are “sons of God” IF we are “led of the spirit” Rom 8:14 (chapter only references flesh and spirit)

Wrangler, Mark's account mentions another clue for you “wild beasts” 1:13 - “spirit is willing, flesh is weak”

What will win - Flesh or Spirit

You have no context for a fallen angel because the focus is on Christ, his nature and whether he will obey the commands, or give in to his starving flesh!

Be good for you to come back with something as equally convincing about you fallen angel theory!

F2F

the spirit of accusation is not stuck to/by one being...

 

[face2face]

the spirit of accusation is not stuck to/by one being...

The true nature of the false accuser and adversary cannot always be discernable in every instance which is why this subject is so difficult. The Christian only sees what they want to see rather than opening their minds to the possibilities.

The authorities were looking for the Christ

Now this was John’s testimony when the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was.
He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Messiah.” John 1:20-21

Did they find the Lord in the Wilderness? Did they try to convince him to join their cause? To provide a sign? To come under their rule?

No doubt you can see the issue in Wranglers OP - He cannot provide any evidence at all that Christ in a weakened state was dealing with one more powerful than himself - also no record of any other interactions in the Gospels, only those between the Lord and the authorities.

More plausible than the OP's theory!

F2F

 

[Lambano]

Could we put in an option in the poll for a VR-quality vision? That sounds like a more reasonable explanation than the two given.

 

[amigo de christo]

I have... Unfortunately.

All we can do is POINT to CHRIST JESUS and embrace all the good sound doctrine .
March onwards in the LORD dear sister .

 

[amigo de christo]

Verse 13 “Ended all the temptation” – The Grk: “Had completed every kind of temptation”

1 John 2:15-16

@Wrangler why every kind of temptation?

What was the point in God allowing His Son to go through every kind of temptation?

To show what?

To OVERCOME what man could not . Every temptation known to man .
The first adam failed but the second prevailed . And not only did HE prevail , FOR OUR SAKES , He also
had the pay the price , again fOR OUR sakes . SO that all who do BELIEVE would not perish
but have everlasting life . AND HE was the firstborn from the dead
so now we can walk in newness of life by the POWER of THE SPIRIT given to all who Believe .
JESUS had to overcome all temptations , NOT FOR HIS SAKE , FOR OURS . Now raise those hands and praise and rejoice
in the glorious LORD .

 

[Marvelloustime]

To OVERCOME what man could not . Every temptation known to man .
The first adam failed but the second prevailed . And not only did HE prevail , FOR OUR SAKES , He also
had the pay the price , again fOR OUR sakes . SO that all who do BELIEVE would not perish
but have everlasting life . AND HE was the firstborn from the dead
so now we can walk in newness of life by the POWER of THE SPIRIT given to all who Believe .
JESUS had to overcome all temptations , NOT FOR HIS SAKE , FOR OURS . Now raise those hands and praise and rejoice
in the glorious LORD .

@amigo de christo

 

[amigo de christo]

The true nature of the false accuser and adversary cannot always be discernable in every instance which is why this subject is so difficult. The Christian only sees what they want to see rather than opening their minds to the possibilities.

The authorities were looking for the Christ

Now this was John’s testimony when the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was.
He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Messiah.” John 1:20-21

Did they find the Lord in the Wilderness? Did they try to convince him to join their cause? To provide a sign? To come under their rule?

No doubt you can see the issue in Wranglers OP - He cannot provide any evidence at all that Christ in a weakened state was dealing with one more powerful than himself - also no record of any other interactions in the Gospels, only those between the Lord and the authorities.

More plausible than the OP's theory!

F2F

Even as the Word became flesh , in that state STILL the demons trembled in fear of him .
Imagine what is gonna occur ON HIS DAY in FULL GLORY . JUDGEMENT will be delivered unto all who denied HIM
and satan knows his time be short . When you say in a weakened state , you mean the flesh He was wrapped in .
And we know why The WORD had to become flesh . SO HE could do for man what man could not do for himself .
SAVE . So that all who do beleive would not perish but have everlasting life and now walk even in newness of life .
As with job , as with man , So too with CHRIST in the flesh , satan is allowed to tempt .
But make no mistake HE has no power and had no POWER over CHRIST . JESUS simply had to endure
all temptations for our sakes . Now raise those hands and let all that draws breath both praise and thank the LORD .

 

[Marvelloustime]

Even as the Word became flesh , in that state STILL the demons trembled in fear of him .
Imagine what is gonna occur ON HIS DAY in FULL GLORY . JUDGEMENT will be delivered unto all who denied HIM
and satan knows his time be short . When you say in a weakened state , you mean the flesh He was wrapped in .
And we know why The WORD had to become flesh . SO HE could do for man what man could not do for himself .
SAVE . So that all who do beleive would not perish but have everlasting life and now walk even in newness of life .
As with job , as with man , So too with CHRIST in the flesh , satan is allowed to tempt .
But make no mistake HE has no power and had no POWER over CHRIST . JESUS simply had to endure
all temptations for our sakes . Now raise those hands and let all that draws breath both praise and thank the LORD .

@amigo de christo

 

[Wrangler]

Could we put in an option in the poll for a VR-quality vision? That sounds like a more reasonable explanation than the two given.

I don't know what you are asking. VR-quality vision; what is that?