Did Jesus say that adultery is grounds for divorce? - Nope.
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Internet funny...
What does the Bible say about divorce?
The New American Bible translates this passage as: But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the. marriage is unlawful) causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.The problem with this passages is that the discussion is about Christ talking to the Jews about the Mosaic Law and we do not know how many wives they had. It is not directed towards Christians. In fact divorce is an Jewish process....Letter of Divorcement is a Mosaic process....A lot of misunderstandings.
Civilly the first woman to divorce her husband was in 1643.
One of the requirements of Elder in the church is to be the husband of one wife.
This infers that polygamy was common. Historically we understand wives were considered property of husbands.
And it was common to keep female slaves for sex and also to use prostitutes.
"A wife for legacy, a concubine for pleasure."
Does the "husband of one wife" requirement mean that polygamy was common in the early church?
Why does the Apostle Paul require that church Elders be the "husband of one wife" if polygamy wasn't common in the church? Titus 1:5-6 ESV This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— 6 if anyone is...
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The word "divorce" may not be in the Bible, but the idea is discussed.
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soberxp
Well-Known Member
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Yea, none of that is the pretty side of Christianity. Most of it was the Jews and Jewish-Christians because the Gentile-Christians had no such customs. Not to say they did not partake. And there is a historical side of it. The Catholic Church did not allow priests to have wives so they "the priests" called their wives concubines.
Martin Luther admitted that the Bible never put an end to polygamy and concubinage.
Women were property in the Jewish culture and Mosaic Law.....and they were property with the Jewish-Christians.....then the Gentile-Christians treated them like property and father arranged marriages and husband more or less buying their wives, this continued on until relatively recently and then you have the women's suffrage and women's rights.....and now ain't no one happy unless momma's happy.
If you have ever seen the video....women are crazy graph....I love it....it funny....But the joke is on us menz.....They all maybe 14% crazy but bottom line.....what is the alternative? So I love that crazy.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
You wish.....back to the Bible for you. Nearly every significant person in the Old Testament had more than one wife.
soberxp
Well-Known Member
So I use the 99.99999%, not 100%.
In the biblical genealogy, 99.99999% of people are monogamous.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
One of the requirements Elder in the church is to be the husband of one wife.
This infers that polygamy was common. Historically we understand wives were considered property of husbands.
And it was common to keep female slaves for sex and also to use prostitutes.
"A wife for legacy, a concubine for pleasure."
Does the "husband of one wife" requirement mean that polygamy was common in the early church?
Why does the Apostle Paul require that church Elders be the "husband of one wife" if polygamy wasn't common in the church? Titus 1:5-6 ESV This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— 6 if anyone is...
The word "divorce" may not be in the Bible, but the idea is discussed.
[
I did not say that the word divorce is not in the scriptures......I pointed out that the topic in the Gospels where Yeshua was talking to Jews about divorce was Jewish/Mosaic Law. And did not entirely pertain to Christians .....the word divorce does not occur outside of the Gospels. Christianity did not adopt the "Letter of Divorce" Law or even divorce.
Look at what the Apostle Paul said about a man and a women separating or "put away" And even then the concept of husband and wife separating occurs when women were still more or less considered property.....
Discussions regarding Christians doing the modern divorce thing is complicated. I have done some marriage counseling. Things are different now.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I run into this a lot. Modern Christians see polygamy as a bad thing that bad people did.
It is the wrong perspective. The Mosaic Law regulated it.....Yahweh took credit for King David's wives because in that culture if you had several wives and a lot of children it was a sign of God's blessings.
The scriptures Old or New Testament never put an end to polygamy or concubinage.
It is simply not a custom of Christianity anymore.....and rightly so.
soberxp
Well-Known Member
For myself, a wife is a blessing and many wives are a curse. LOL.
Love others as yourself.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
A little humor if you see it that way.
The Jews could have multiple wives….but still the real world. They had to feed and clothe them…..and if you think clothes are expensive today…WOW. Cloth was expensive and in short supply and dye was another matter.
And the Mosaic Law made it clear that a man had to properly feed and clothe and house his wives and give them opportunity for children….producing children was a religious thing for Jewish females. You will notice that it was important for the ladies to have children because that was their part of the Covenant. No penis to circumcise.
The sexual life of Jewish families would be unsettling to Christians. A lot of Jews lived in tents and a man with multiple wives had sex with them in those tents….The woman would get “exposed” and lay beneath the man….missionary position and he would allow his garment to conceal her from the others. Kind of like the sexual encounter in Ruth on the threshing floor when Ruth ask him to cover her with a corner of his robe. It was not his feet she exposed.
Jewish weddings are a separate topic…but as it is no Jewish Wedding Ceremonies in the scriptures or any Wedding Ceremony is requirement thereof. The Jews had marriage celebrations and what we know of them are historical. Jewish marriage celebrations were a family affair, between families. No clergy and no vows and the couple “coupled up” in the bridle chamber to consummate the marriage during the celebrations and the mother of the bride would collect the sheets afterwards to prove her daughter’s virginity.
So Jewish men would at times take on as many wives as they could support. They had a tendency to divorce the older wives and take on younger wives that were more sexually active and fertile. Divorcing an older wife was almost a death sentence because they could not remarry and their own family might not take them back. They took no property usually or children. So divorced Jewish wives had a tendency to become slaves of differing types.
This is the cruelty that Yeshua was taking exception to when He was discussing it with the Jews. And when He said that Moses allowed them to divorce due to the hardness of their hearts….this brings up questions about the source of the Mosaic Law. Christianity did not adopt the Law/custom of a Letter of Divorcement. The Apostle Paul discusses separating under what conditions.
Now the Greco-Romans found all this heathenistic. But the Roman arrangement was not much less heathenistic. Romans and Pagans in general had only one wife and children through them were their legitimate heirs. But they were not monogamous at all. The husbands could have sex with other women or men or children or prostitutes. It was a very sexual society, sex in public, orgies, temple prostitutes and sexual murals and tiles in their homes.
Christianity, particularly Gentile-Christianity and then Protestant Christianity was/is a different type of religion and developed a different type of marital relationship. Respect and love, respect for position, husband and wife, mother and father. Children that are taught respect and manners. A reliance on the family unit, team work, work together. A lot of this the scriptures do not get into details on…. Focus on the family is something that Christians understand today but not detailed in the scriptures. (So important for families to go to Church)
Anyway monogamy became the rule, love and romance and the story of Gentile-Christianity moves through history. The Jewish-Christians die out pretty much by the 1st century and the Pagan converts of Paul take the helm of the church and they bring in Pagan customs from different regions, one of them….Wedding Ceremonies and this becomes a Christian custom and still today there are Pagan customs in Christian Weddings….The wedding dress with train, the veil, the vows, the cake, bells, bags with strings, that are balloons today with strings, noise makers….But still a family affair, but back then clergy not necessary. Eventually in the 16th century the Protestants made a church Wedding with clergy a requirement to be married.
Now the Jewish Wedding Ceremony…..Towards the end of the Old Testament the Jews fell under the friendly rule of the Persians and they helped them build the second temple. Scholars believe that the Jews admired the fancy weddings of the Persians and developed their own wedding ceremonies. This is what Christ is talking about in the New Testament….the whole ten virgins with lamps thing. We do not know if the marriage at Cana involved this ceremony or not….the storyline picks up at the reception.
But then Alexander the Great conquered the Persians and started slaughtering the Jews, taking their wives and torturing and crucifying men and women by the tens of thousands. Then the Roman took up where they left off. The Jews came to believe that all their misfortunes had to do with their relations with Pagans. So the Jewish Wedding Ceremony fell out of favor. During Christ’s time it was probably not very common. But by the middle ages it was back and you can see most of it in modern Jewish Weddings. Of course in modern Jewish Weddings the bridal chamber is symbolically represent by a canopy called the Chuppah.
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Lambano
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
And Furries are people that dress up in animal customs and have orgies......
But the word Furries is not in the scriptures and nothing can be translated to it.
Like wise fornication was formulated in 5th century and it started its octopus of definitions. From all encompassing to specific to promoting sins. In fact it can cause false beliefs and sin.
Stick with the words in the scriptures.
Clichés will lead you astray and make you look stupid.
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Do you believe that fornication is not a sin. (since the Bible doesn't mention it, according to you)
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Biblically it is not anything.....except for a distraction.
It is a Latin word and as such it is impossible to be in the Koine Greek New Testament.
The definition of fornication cannot be exampled in the scriptures because the word does not exist for four centuries after the last page of the Bible was written.
The definitions of fornication are so open ended that over the years people have added to them.....Had a Baptist preacher that said that sexual desire for your wife before and after your wedding is fornication. We can have a 5th century definiton of fornication or 12th century definition of fornication or a 25th century defintion of fornication.
Fornication Lost In Space!
The big one is that in the 16th century the Protestants made it a custom for a church wedding ceremony with clergy to be required to be married. Before that the Catholic Church had no such requirement, because the scriptures had no requirement for a wedding ceremony. To be married, two single people had sex and stayed together. The union consumated the marriage.
The History of the Cliche Fornication
This is a prime example of why we should not make up words and stick them in the Bible, because they cause misunderstandings and false beliefs that can span over a thousand years. The word fornication or is not in the scriptures nor is its definition. It is scam that is a reflection of Christianity’s growing hatred of sex and women after the biblical period.
This stems indirectly from the Greek word porneia means prostitute or associated with prostitutes. Which was not a negative term in the Greco-Roman culture. But the Christian religion thought differently. The New Testament was written mostly in Greek, a Pagan Language. When the Apostles were writing the New Testament they were tasked with using a Pagan language that did not reflect Christian morals. So the Christians adjusted the words and definitions to convey their thoughts. There are variances to the Greek word porneia that define various sexual activities…. all of which are in the scriptures and all of which Christianity considers sinful.
The false beliefs associated with the word fornication start a long long time ago. If you noticed there was no wedding ceremony or vows in Eden. And then you can read the rest of the Bible and find no requirement for wedding ceremonies or vows. Yep! That is right the Bible does not state a requirement for a wedding ceremony to be married in the Old or New Testament. People formed marriages as God described… For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. Genesis 2:24 Neither the Old or New Testament state a requirement for wedding ceremonies. It was about1500 years after the biblical period that Christianity developed a requirement for weddings ceremonies and vows, and that is a fact.
Christianity has lumped a lot of Greek words for sex acts into the word Fornication as seen in some definitions of the word below, but the word does not appear in any scripture.
Some examples:
noun
πορνεία
prostitution, whoring, harlotry, whoredom,
συνουσία
fornication, coition, intercourse, copulation
From the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance
illicit sexual intercourse
adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18 sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11-12 The worship of idols of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols etc
But Fornication is not a translational error it is man-made word that made its way into the 16th and 17th century translations of the Bible, but still this word did not originate in these Bibles.
When the Greek text was translated into the Latin Vulgate, (circa 404 AD)
the word pornia and its variants were translated to the Latin word fornicatio.
Then translated into the English word fornication and was used in the original Tyndale, Geneva, and King James Version of the Bible.
Like I said, part of the problem was that the New Testament was an attempt to write Christian moral standards using a Pagan language…ie the Greek language that did not have words that reflected Christian standards. The Greeks - Romans did not have the same moral standards that Christians had. For example; If you told a Roman solider that he sinned, it meant that his arrow missed the target….no moral implication. So the Christians writers were taking Greek words and adjusting them to have moral definitions. Why? In the Greco-Roman culture various sexual activities were not considered immoral. It did not matter if it was temple prostitutes or orgies. Married Roman men were free to have sex with who they wanted…female or male. By Christian standards this was a disgusting arrangement. In the Roman culture adultery was not a sin, it was illegal to have sex with someone else’s wife. So Christian writers were tasked with conveying sexual morality from a culture that was without sexual morals and their language reflected the absence of words to describe sexual immorality. Now was all this confusing to the translators of the scriptures, it is a matter of debate.
Like I said, Porneia in the Greek society is mostly a reference to prostitution which was not wrong in their culture. For example pornography, is an ancient Greek word that means writings or paintings of prostitutes and many Roman homes had murals of sex acts and or prostitutes on their walls.
But in the scriptures the Greek word Porneia and its variances appear several times. In all cases the Christian writers were using them as some form of sexual immorality.
Examples:
πορνείας·… porneias … Sexual immorality
πορνείᾳ … porneiai … Sexual immorality in the plural
πορνεῦσαι … To commit sexual immorality involving sexual acts
πορνείαν … Idolatry involving sexual acts
πόρνος … A person that practices sexual immorality
πόρνοι … Refering to as a group of the sexually immoral
πορνεῖαι … inflectional, more or less dirty thoughts
Appearing in these scriptures….
Matthew 5:32, 5:19, Mark 7:21, John 8:4, Acts 15:20, 5:29, 21:25, Romans 1:29* 1st Corinthians 5:1, 5:9, 5:10, 6:13, 6:18, 7:2, 10:8, 2nd Corinthians 12:21, Galatians 5:19, Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 3:5, 1st Thessalonians 4:3, Jude 1:7, Revelation 2:14, 2:14, 2:20, 2:21, 9:21, 14:8, 17:2, 17:4, 18:3, 18:19, 19:2
But in no case does it simply apply to two unmarried people having sex, for a very good reason. The New Testament does not have a lot to say about romantic love. But to say that Porneia, is sex outside of wedlock would be inaccurate, since the Bible has no requirements for wedding ceremonies or vows. Marriages were formed by the union and most of the time in early Christianity a lady’s father would chose who they would marry, as was practiced in most Old Testament unions of marriages.
continued....
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
The evolution of the word Fornicate or Fornication
Fornicate comes from a Latin root word, the term fornix means arch or vaulted ceiling. In Ancient Rome, it was known that prostitutes would wait for their customers out of the hot sun or rain in areas that had cover… vaulted ceilings. The Latin word fornix became a euphemism for brothels and the Latin verb fornicare referred to a man visiting a brothel. Meaning a man being serviced by prostitutes.
Of course then St. Jerome’s Latin Vulgate translation of the scriptures used a variant of that….fornicatio and lumped all the Greek variances of porneia under that word.
The first recorded use of the word fornicate in English is in the 14th century in a poem called the Cursor Mundi.
The first English Bibles to use the word fornication was the Bishop’s Bible---Church of England 1568, the Catholic Bible called the Douay-Rheims Bible (early 1600’s) and then the other Protestant Bibles followed suite examples; the Tyndale Bible Geneva Bible and the King James Version of the Bible, 16th and 17th centuries respectively.
So bottom line, marriages in the Bible were formed by the union. This is a biblical and historical fact. Even if the Hebrew families held a marriage celebration, there was no Hebrew word for wed or wedding nor any biblically stated requirement for ceremonies or vows....just the Bridal Chamber where the couple consummated their marriage. Modern Jews still use a symbolic bridal chamber that is more of a canopy.
The fact that it is the union that forms a marriage still exists in civil laws. In most states and countries a couple that does not have sex after the wedding ceremony (consummate) can get their marriage annulled.
Fornication is a well known case study in how man-made terms and phrases that are false usually develop into false beliefs and skew the meaning of the scriptures and perceptions and as in this case can cause sin. The word fornication is one of the reasons why a lot of Christians believe that wedding ceremonies were required in the Old and New Testament.
For example; a man and a woman fall in love and have sex and then from there on remain together, from the biblical perceptive, they are married. But Christians, believing various false beliefs can condemn them because of what they think Fornication means…two people that have not had a wedding ceremony having sex and living together, ergo the term shacking up.
Then people believing they are “living in sin” may make the couple feel unwelcome in church and could turn them away from Christianity. Which are the only sins that occurred here. The sin of gossip, the sin of falsely accusing people of a sin, and the sin of turning them away Christianity. And then calling their children bastards.
Had a preacher tell me that the normal attraction that couples in love feel for each other is lust and so all marriages are formed by lust. That would be completely wrong. God described the process that is correct…. For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. God designed men and women to be attracted to each other and form marriages and families. No sin occurs in the process that God designed.
Then according to Augustine (circa 354-430 AD) the sex act being sinful passed the sin of Adam and Eve to the babies, calling it original sin. Which is another manmade term that does not appear in the Bible, but has been taught to Christians. Original Sin is another false belief. This produced the belief that babies can go to hell.
It is better explained that Adam and Eve and their offspring promulgated the nature of man to be sinful. Mankind took after Adam and Eve’s character but it was not sex that caused it, no more than a son having his father’s nose.
It is not because sex is evil that caused the son’s nose…a trait of his parent.
Fornication is a good study into how man-made terms and phrases that are not in the Bible, can become popular and can introduce false beliefs that can remain for centuries and cause sin, misery, atrocities, and death not to mention, skewing the meaning of the scriptures and the perception of history.
Of course adultery and casual sex is a sin, ie one night stands and or whore mongering, prostitution, which are sins that are mostly defined in the Bible and in general are defined in modern translations as sexual immorality.
Fornicate comes from a Latin root word, the term fornix means arch or vaulted ceiling. In Ancient Rome, it was known that prostitutes would wait for their customers out of the hot sun or rain in areas that had cover… vaulted ceilings. The Latin word fornix became a euphemism for brothels and the Latin verb fornicare referred to a man visiting a brothel. Meaning a man being serviced by prostitutes.
Of course then St. Jerome’s Latin Vulgate translation of the scriptures used a variant of that….fornicatio and lumped all the Greek variances of porneia under that word.
The first recorded use of the word fornicate in English is in the 14th century in a poem called the Cursor Mundi.
The first English Bibles to use the word fornication was the Bishop’s Bible---Church of England 1568, the Catholic Bible called the Douay-Rheims Bible (early 1600’s) and then the other Protestant Bibles followed suite examples; the Tyndale Bible Geneva Bible and the King James Version of the Bible, 16th and 17th centuries respectively.
So bottom line, marriages in the Bible were formed by the union. This is a biblical and historical fact. Even if the Hebrew families held a marriage celebration, there was no Hebrew word for wed or wedding nor any biblically stated requirement for ceremonies or vows....just the Bridal Chamber where the couple consummated their marriage. Modern Jews still use a symbolic bridal chamber that is more of a canopy.
The fact that it is the union that forms a marriage still exists in civil laws. In most states and countries a couple that does not have sex after the wedding ceremony (consummate) can get their marriage annulled.
Fornication is a well known case study in how man-made terms and phrases that are false usually develop into false beliefs and skew the meaning of the scriptures and perceptions and as in this case can cause sin. The word fornication is one of the reasons why a lot of Christians believe that wedding ceremonies were required in the Old and New Testament.
For example; a man and a woman fall in love and have sex and then from there on remain together, from the biblical perceptive, they are married. But Christians, believing various false beliefs can condemn them because of what they think Fornication means…two people that have not had a wedding ceremony having sex and living together, ergo the term shacking up.
Then people believing they are “living in sin” may make the couple feel unwelcome in church and could turn them away from Christianity. Which are the only sins that occurred here. The sin of gossip, the sin of falsely accusing people of a sin, and the sin of turning them away Christianity. And then calling their children bastards.
Had a preacher tell me that the normal attraction that couples in love feel for each other is lust and so all marriages are formed by lust. That would be completely wrong. God described the process that is correct…. For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. God designed men and women to be attracted to each other and form marriages and families. No sin occurs in the process that God designed.
Then according to Augustine (circa 354-430 AD) the sex act being sinful passed the sin of Adam and Eve to the babies, calling it original sin. Which is another manmade term that does not appear in the Bible, but has been taught to Christians. Original Sin is another false belief. This produced the belief that babies can go to hell.
It is better explained that Adam and Eve and their offspring promulgated the nature of man to be sinful. Mankind took after Adam and Eve’s character but it was not sex that caused it, no more than a son having his father’s nose.
It is not because sex is evil that caused the son’s nose…a trait of his parent.
Fornication is a good study into how man-made terms and phrases that are not in the Bible, can become popular and can introduce false beliefs that can remain for centuries and cause sin, misery, atrocities, and death not to mention, skewing the meaning of the scriptures and the perception of history.
Of course adultery and casual sex is a sin, ie one night stands and or whore mongering, prostitution, which are sins that are mostly defined in the Bible and in general are defined in modern translations as sexual immorality.
Therefore according to your scripture, it's ok to have consensual sex before marriage?
And if it doesn't workout, sleep with another, and another, probably perform 'abortion', until it workouts or doesn't?
Dogs do that as also other animals, since they're not made in the image of GOD and without 'GOD's moral values'.
On the other hand, it's ok for a married spouse to have consensual sex with another outside of the marriage covenant?
Looks like you need to do a reality check based on the context of all scripture and not out of context 'dilemma'.
Even the Samaritan women Jesus spoke to, was not married to the men she was with.
Yet knowingly He told her bring her husband, and concluded that the one she is now with is not her husband.
From Genesis, when GOD bring two people together, they are husband and wife, without the marriage certificates and ceremonies tradition to this modern day.
Jesus said, what GOD have joined together no man should separate them.
When Rebekah was brought to Isaac, Isaac immediately took her into his tent as his wife, and no marriage ceremony mentioned.
In these last days, Jesus permit 'divorce' on the grounds of 'sexual immorality', whether 'fornication' or 'adultery'.
But He said, if one is able to 'forgive' and accept the 'spouse' who's done wrong, does a great deed.
Since if one goes ahead and marry another commits 'adultery', and one who marries such also commit 'adultery'.
Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Although I agree with your concern the same can happen if you have a wedding ceremony before making love….it is called divorce.
The only alternative we have is not have sex….or only make love after you are as sure as you can be that you are in love and you want to spend the rest of your life with that person.
And I am not saying anything is a sure thing….but what the scripture says and shows is a sure thing. You are not taking exception with me, you are taking exception with the scriptures. I am just saying the truth and you do not like that either. The truth can be shocking, I will give you that.
And I did not say that abortion or adultery is condoned by the scriptures, both are a sin.
But you seem to understand by the example you gave that the sexual union consummates the marriage.
But then you say -- In these last days, Jesus permit 'divorce' on the grounds of 'sexual immorality', whether 'fornication' or 'adultery'. But Christianity did not adopt the Jewish process for divorce….and fornication is not a biblical word and it does not have a specific meaning and can cause misunderstandings. Stay away from theological clichés because they account for a lot of false beliefs….stick with what is actually in the scriptures.
Civilly our legal system has adopted the process of divorce. But the word divorce does not occur outside the Gospels because that was a process for the Jews and Jewish-Christians. What Paul talks about is separation or “put away” and reconciliation is always the best choice.
Now as a Theologian I try to unravel the false beliefs and misinformation. Christians deserve to know the truth and these false beliefs have caused great sins.
Because people think that sex does not consummate a marriage, they think casual sex is a “lesser sin” they do not know that the next person they have sex with constitutes adultery.
Because people think you have to have a wedding ceremony to be married, they condemn couples that are monogamous without a wedding ceremony and at times turn them away from Christianity and that is a serious sin.
Be good and do good….only join with a person that you are in love with. That is the best you can do with or without a wedding ceremony.
Christianity’s concern with sex is not because it is dirty and nasty and sinful. The sexual union was designed by God, the sexual union with love is what God intended. Christianity’s concerns with sex is because of its significance.
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Runningman
Well-Known Member
On the other hand, the things that constitute a marriage are "leaving one's parents" and "becoming one flesh" which is the same thing that people who fornicate do. The line between "pre-marital" sex and consummating a marriage actually quite gray from a Biblical standpoint.
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