The Coming Rapture

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't think this is correct. You change the 144,000 from the 12 tribes that are firstfruits. This negates all the truth that God has given us.

You change the order of the seals, as you do not recognize that the 6th seal is completed before the 7th seal opened.

I interpret things differently than you do. I do not change anything. If all you're going to do is accuse me of changing scripture, then I'm done with you. I have many better things to do than deal with someone falsely accusing me of something that I'm not doing.

 

[PinSeeker]

These verses have nothing to do with Roman emperors...

Well, not solely. <smile> They are merely the first, immediate iteration of what is "seen" in John's vision.

...save the 6th king which is the Roman empire under the Ceasars.

Ugh. <smile> As I said, the five who have fallen represents an indefinite number of previous emperors... even up to now. The presence of the sixth indicates in symbolic fashion that Christians are near the end, but not quite there. The Beast itself is an eighth king. Since there are only seven heads, the verse is not claiming that the Beast is an eighth head; rather, the Beast symbolizes, in final manifestation, a power analogous to that of the seven.

The heads are mountains...

On which the woman, the prostitute, is seated. A woman cannot literally sit on seven mountains, The Light. Unless what is "seen" there in John's vision is actually read and understood for what it is... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

On which the woman, the prostitute, is seated. A woman cannot literally sit on seven mountains, The Light. Unless what is "seen" there in John's vision is actually read and understood for what it is... <smile>

Right. A symbolic woman cannot sit on seven literal mountains. The symbolic woman sits on many symbolic waters (Rev 17:1) and she sits on a symbolic scarlet beast with seven heads and ten horns (Rev 17:3). So, a symbolic woman sits on seven symbolic mountains. In scripture, mountains symbolically represent kingdoms.

 

[PinSeeker]

A symbolic woman cannot sit on seven literal mountains.

LOL! Well, yes, but a literal woman cannot either... <smile> Unless the mounts are stacked on top of each other, I guess... LOL!

In scripture, mountains symbolically represent kingdoms.

Sometimes, yes... <smile>

Maybe it's a good idea to stay away from any derivation of the word 'symbol,' and just read certain parts of Scripture as they should be read, particularly John's Revelation. It's a picture book, filled with shocking fantastical images, which are used in shocking, fantastical ways, but representing real things. We can summarize Revelation's message in one sentence: God rules history and will bring it to its consummation in Christ. Read it with this main point in mind, and we can understand.

What I see so much of in all these conversations about Revelation ~ and what's happening right here in Revelation 17 ~ is that people start with a detail and ignore the big picture, and that is asking for trouble. God is at the center of Revelation, so we must start with Him and with the contrasts between Him and His satanic opponents. If instead we try right away to puzzle out details, it is as if we tried to use a knife by grasping it by the blade instead of the handle. We are starting at the wrong end.

Again, John's Revelation is a picture book, not a puzzle book. We shouldn't try to puzzle it out. We shouldn't become preoccupied by isolated details. Rather, we should become engrossed in the story. We should read it just like a fantasy, except of course we know it's absolutely true. So, in reading it, praise the Lord. Cheer for the saints. Detest the Beast. Long for the final victory.

Right?

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL! Well, yes, but a literal woman cannot either... <smile> Unless the mounts are stacked on top of each other, I guess... LOL!

LOL! That's a good point. That is true. Not all at once, anyway. Maybe one at a time as she continually goes from one to another? LOL.

But, the point I'm making, of course, is that both the woman and what she sits on are symbolic. But, people want to insist it's referring to literal hills or mountains. No, they're not any more literal than the other things she sits on.

Sometimes, yes... <smile>

Maybe it's a good idea to stay away from any derivation of the word 'symbol,' and just read certain parts of Scripture as they should be read, particularly John's Revelation. It's a picture book, filled with shocking fantastical images, which are used in shocking, fantastical ways, but representing real things. We can summarize Revelation's message in one sentence: God rules history and will bring it to its consummation in Christ. Read it with this main point in mind, and we can understand.

What I see so much of in all these conversations about Revelation ~ and what's happening right here in Revelation 17 ~ is that people start with a detail and ignore the big picture, and that is asking for trouble. God is at the center of Revelation, so we must start with Him and with the contrasts between Him and His satanic opponents. If instead we try right away to puzzle out details, it is as if we tried to use a knife by grasping it by the blade instead of the handle. We are starting at the wrong end.

Again, John's Revelation is a picture book, not a puzzle book. We shouldn't try to puzzle it out. We shouldn't become preoccupied by isolated details. Rather, we should become engrossed in the story. We should read it just like a fantasy, except of course we know it's absolutely true. So, in reading it, praise the Lord. Cheer for the saints. Detest the Beast. Long for the final victory.

Right?

Right. I actually agree with that. I don't typically get into discussions trying to determine what every symbol represents and figure out every detail as if that is the most important thing to takeaway from the book rather than the overall message of the book. The symbols do symbolize things in reality and there's nothing wrong with trying to figure that out, but I agree that's not the priority over the main themes of the book. It's about Jesus and His church and the spiritual battle against the spiritual enemies of Jesus and His church. And, (spoiler alert) Jesus wins.

 

[PinSeeker]

...both the woman and what she sits on are symbolic.

Well, the big picture painted in those fantastical images are what is important to "see."

But, people want to insist it's referring to literal hills or mountains. No, they're not any more literal than the other things she sits on.

Yeah... I mean... Okay, a good analogy is that... well, first, in Proverbs, what has to be understood is that the hearer is an impressionable young man. Solomon says that wisdom is what is to be desired, and the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord. You know that... so then wisdom ~ which is an intangible thing, a desirable trait, or quality ~ is portrayed as a... spectacularly beautiful, desirable woman in the Proverbs.

Here in Revelation 17 it's the opposite, in a way... the woman represents worldly wisdom, so she is a prostitute, trying to seduce the hearer to the "worldly city," which is Babylon... So in real life... <smile> ...the image created here is timeless. We are constantly being seduced by the world. So get this: The prostitute is borne up by a hideous beast, evidently the same Beast as in Revelation 13:1-10. The Beast, representing the Roman Empire, supports the city of Rome in its luxurious idolatry. It also spreads the practices of Rome throughout the Empire, but eventually, the Beast turns against the Prostitute and destroys her (Revelation 17:16-17). The... well, predatory, greedy powers of Roman government and the Roman legions destroy prosperity, and eventually the military powers of surrounding tribes destroy the city of Rome completely. The lesson from Roman times is generalizable: idolatrous states end up destroying the very powers, riches, privileges, and people that they start out supporting. False worship is self-destructive. And therein the real takeaway from those chapters in Revelation (17-19) is realized, when the destruction of false worship is complete, the true worshipers, the bride of the Lamb, stand out in their splendor and joy (Revelation 19:1-10).

I don't typically get into discussions trying to determine what every symbol represents and figure out every detail as if that is the most important thing to takeaway from the book rather than the overall message of the book.

Hmmm... It's easy to get carried away in those discussions and start focusing on tiny details and trying to identify them with particular things instead of zooming out and taking in the whole story. Stories, actually... there are seven of them. It's the same story retold in seven different ways... from seven different perspectives, so to speak.

The symbols do symbolize things in reality and there's nothing wrong with trying to figure that out...

But there is really never a one-to-one correlation with anything. It's always a one-to-many thing. And that's what many cannot accept... if it's ever been presented to them as such at all. And again I think the term 'symbol' and 'symbolize'... so many here those terms and think "not real," which, as you would agree, is ridiculous, but for that reason I think it's practical to avoid derivatives of that term.

Okay, that's enough for now, I think. <smile> At least it is for me. <smile>

Grace and peace!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, the big picture painted in those fantastical images are what is important to "see."

Yes, I agree.

Yeah... I mean... Okay, a good analogy is that... well, first, in Proverbs, what has to be understood is that the hearer is an impressionable young man. Solomon says that wisdom is what is to be desired, and the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord. You know that... so then wisdom ~ which is an intangible thing, a desirable trait, or quality ~ is portrayed as a... spectacularly beautiful, desirable woman in the Proverbs.

Here in Revelation 17 it's the opposite, in a way... the woman represents worldly wisdom, so she is a prostitute, trying to seduce the hearer to the "worldly city," which is Babylon... So in real life... <smile> ...the image created here is timeless. We are constantly being seduced by the world. So get this: The prostitute is borne up by a hideous beast, evidently the same Beast as in Revelation 13:1-10. The Beast, representing the Roman Empire, supports the city of Rome in its luxurious idolatry. It also spreads the practices of Rome throughout the Empire, but eventually, the Beast turns against the Prostitute and destroys her (Revelation 17:16-17).

Well, I think the head that "is" at the time the book was written is the Roman Empire, but not the beast itself which I see as being the world in the sense that Jesus talked about (we are not of the world - not worldly). This world, generally speaking, is evil and opposes God. The beast makes war with the saints. It has taken different forms over time.

The... well, predatory, greedy powers of Roman government and the Roman legions destroy prosperity, and eventually the military powers of surrounding tribes destroy the city of Rome completely. The lesson from Roman times is generalizable: idolatrous states end up destroying the very powers, riches, privileges, and people that they start out supporting. False worship is self-destructive. And therein the real takeaway from those chapters in Revelation (17-19) is realized, when the destruction of false worship is complete, the true worshipers, the bride of the Lamb, stand out in their splendor and joy (Revelation 19:1-10).

Agree.

Hmmm... It's easy to get carried away in those discussions and start focusing on tiny details and trying to identify them with particular things instead of zooming out and taking in the whole story. Stories, actually... there are seven of them. It's the same story retold in seven different ways... from seven different perspectives, so to speak.

Yes, I agree with that. That is known as recapitulation. You seem to have an idealist view of Revelation and that's how I see it too for the most part.

But there is really never a one-to-one correlation with anything. It's always a one-to-many thing. And that's what many cannot accept... if it's ever been presented to them as such at all. And again I think the term 'symbol' and 'symbolize'... so many here those terms and think "not real," which, as you would agree, is ridiculous, but for that reason I think it's practical to avoid derivatives of that term.

I think that's generally true, but not always. For example, "The Lamb" is Jesus. So, a one-to-one correlation there. But, I get your point.

Okay, that's enough for now, I think. <smile> At least it is for me. <smile>

Good talk. Let's stick to talking about these types of things and not how salvation works. It seems to be more productive for us. <smile>

 

[The Light]

On which the woman, the prostitute, is seated. A woman cannot literally sit on seven mountains, The Light. Unless what is "seen" there in John's vision is actually read and understood for what it is... <smile>

The woman is the Holy Mother Church. That is the church of Rome. Rome is the city of seven hills.

 

[ewq1938]

The woman is the Holy Mother Church. That is the church of Rome. Rome is the city of seven hills.

That woman was a type/shadow of the actual Babylon. The final Babylon will be global, and will represent those who believe the AC is a true God.

 

[PinSeeker]

The woman is the Holy Mother Church. That is the church of Rome. Rome is the city of seven hills.

Nope.

That woman was a type/shadow of the actual Babylon.

Nope.

The final Babylon will be global, and will represent those who believe the AC is a true God.

Well, the "worldly city" is global in a sense... really of the world and not of God, and that has always been true since the events of Genesis 3, but that's what will finally be set right, when God makes all things new.

Goodness gracious.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

Nope.

YEP. The woman dresses in purple and scarlet and has a gold cup in her hand.

 

[PinSeeker]

Good talk. Let's stick to talking about these types of things and not how salvation works. It seems to be more productive for us. <smile>

Yeah, as long as people agree with you, then that's productive, and there's no reason to get all ticked off and call them "clowns" or "idiots" or "have poor reading comprehension skills" or treat them with various other means of disrespect, right? <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

That woman was a type/shadow of the actual Babylon. The final Babylon will be global, and will represent those who believe the AC is a true God.

The woman dresses in purple and scarlet and has a gold cup in her hand.

In case you don't know, the Roman Church is world wide.

Ever heard of Chrislam?

 

[PinSeeker]

YEP.

Nope.

The woman dresses in purple and scarlet and has a gold cup in her hand..

Hmmm, well the gold cup, The Light, is full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. And yes, the woman is adorned with the false "royalty" of this world,

I appreciate your opinion... and have no problem with anyone calling what I have said my opinion.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yeah, as long as people agree with you, then that's productive, and there's no reason to get all ticked off and call them "clowns" or "idiots" or "have poor reading comprehension skills" or treat them with various other means of disrespect, right? <smile>

When did I call anyone an idiot? LOL.

You may not have seen the discussion in the ECF thread, but after things got heated between about 5 us (2 Amils and 3 Premils), one person acknowledged that he put info out there that he did not research that attributed comments to an ECF, Irenaeus, that he did not make. So, he apologized for that and for his insults as well. After that, everyone else also apologized for their insults. So, we were acknowledging that we were getting too personal and I agreed and said I would like us all, including me, to stop doing that. So, I am trying to do that. You have, of course, insulted me a number of times as well, having called my arguments "dumb" and "stupid" a few times. So, you are not as holy as you think you are. I'd like to just stick to discussing scripture and leave the insults out of it. I tend to respond to insults with my own, especially with people like Davy, but I'd like to just try to ignore that instead.

 

[PinSeeker]

You have, of course, insulted me a number of times as well, having called my arguments "dumb" and "stupid" a few times.

I have not. Now, I could call you a liar, but that would be inaccurate, because I think you actually believe what you are saying, or at the very least in the case you really are lying here just a one-off, which in my book wouldn't qualify your actually being a liar.

So, you are not as holy as you think you are.

<eye roll>

I'd like to just stick to discussing scripture and leave the insults out of it.

Again, I would exhort you (and others) to do that also. <smile> But surely, do what you want to do...

I tend to respond to insults with my own....

Ah yes, you do... Ergo, my "returning evil for evil" comments...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

Nope.


Hmmm, well the gold cup, The Light, is full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. And yes, the woman is adorned with the false "royalty" of this world,

I appreciate your opinion... and have no problem with anyone calling what I have said my opinion.

The nice thing is, I can support my opinion with scripture.

 

[PinSeeker]

The nice thing is, I can support my opinion with scripture.

In your opinion. I know. <smile> But opinions and facts are possibly two very different things. But, yes, me, too. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have not. Now, I could call you a liar, but that would be inaccurate, because I think you actually believe what you are saying, or at the very least in the case you really are lying here just a one-off, which in my book wouldn't qualify your actually being a liar.

You need to get your memory checked. This is from one of your past posts in response to me...

Because it's dumb. It would be a dumb thing to say.

The first cause is God, yes. But man, because of the new spirit God has given him, then chooses correctly. Yes, thank God that God does do that, because otherwise no one would be saved. Who then can be saved? Jesus says, "What is impossible with man is possible with God.” But to turn that into "God forces people to be saved" is just stupid. That's just a dumb thing to say.

 

[The Light]

In your opinion. I know. <smile> But opinions and facts are possibly two very different things. But, yes, me, too. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

Fact is, you have not shown anything about how the woman that dresses in purple and scarlet, carries a gold cup in her hand and sits on seven mountains describes the conclusion of your opinion. No Biblical support.