WILL THE BODY OF CHRIST COME BACK WITH CHRIST AT HIS COMING?
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Then we who are alive will meet them in the air.........this is the mystery gathering of the body of Christ
Dear Doug,
Yes, salvation is a free gift from Christ. But our salvation is more than what Christ accomplished at the cross. It is more than just being justified.
Christ's work at the cross justifies us by His blood through the faith that He gives to us by the Early Rain. It is freely given but only at a time of Christ's choosing. But being justified is not our full salvation. It is only the beginning. Our full salvation requires Christ's spiritual work of conversion that He is presently doing under the New Covenant. The Early Rain does not convert a person. The Latter Rain and judgment is what converts a person (the baptism of the Holy Spirit and Fire, Mat 3:11).
To properly understand salvation, you must separate the work that Christ did at the cross under the Old Covenant from the work that He is presently doing under the New Covenant.
Under the Old Covenant, Christ earned the keys to death & hell and the legal right to judge all mankind by which He will collect our sin debt. Also, the blood He shed at the cross justifies us (makes atonement for our sins). Because of what Christ achieved at the cross, He now has the authority to complete our salvation under the New Covenant. Without His work at the cross, the New Covenant would not have been possible.
Under the Old Covenant, Christ's work was physical and outward. Carnal believers (babes) usually don't have too much trouble understanding His physical work.
Under the New Covenant, Christ's work is spiritual and inward. Carnal believers (babes) have a great deal of trouble understanding His spiritual work.
The babes in the Corinthian church could understand the physical work of Christ (Christ and Him crucified, 1Cor 2:2) but because they were spiritually blind, they had a great deal of trouble understanding the spiritual work of Christ that He was doing under the New Covenant. All babes have the same issue.
The false Doctrine of Substitutionary Atonement takes away the need for the child of the Devil to die because it says that Christ died in our place. But that is not true. Christ died to make it possible for us to pay Him our debt of death and still go on living as a new creation. This is the work that Christ is now doing under the New Covenant.
Consider what Christ said here:
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
A babe (Early Rain only) who is unconverted cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. But after they are converted and become a little child who no longer draws milk, they will then enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Have you studied the story of the woman taken in adultery? It teaches when a person comes out from being under the Law and when they will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
In the story, the woman represents the Elect when they are unbelievers. When Christ writes in the earth the first time, He is writing the law of the Spirit in her heart. This happens with the Early Rain of the Spirit. At that time, the Pharisees (who represent the Law) still accuse the woman. Christ then writes in the earth the second time. This represents the Latter Rain. At that time, the Pharisees drop their stones and leave. The law can no longer accuse the woman of sin. This is her moment of salvation/conversion and when she enters the Kingdom of Heaven.
I hope this helps.
Joe
Dear Doug,
The child of the Devil has no faith and is not covered by the blood of Christ. Since the child of the Devil remains under the Law, he will suffer the consequences of his sin which is death. This death satisfies justice.
The new born child of God is the one who has faith and is covered by the blood of Christ.
Joe
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Doug,
No, it is not a work. Christ is the one who causes us to "will and do of His good pleasure" (Phi 2:13). If a believer stays faithful, it is because Christ caused it to happen. If a believer becomes unfaithful, it is because Christ caused that to happen, too.
Here is the full scripture:
Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
When Paul wrote His letters to the churches, the babes in the churches were remaining faithful for the most part. The spirit of anti-Christ had not come and devoured the churches yet. But Paul knew that there was a real danger of a babe falling away from faith. Paul also knew that it would only happen to a babe if the Lord caused it to happen. For that reason, Paul says to work out your own salvation with "fear and trembling". Why? Because the babe has no say in whether or not they will remain faithful. Christ is the one who causes them to "will and do of His good pleasure".
Since Paul's departing, Christ's "will" is for all new babes to fall away and become unfaithful. To believe otherwise is to believe that Christ is not mankind's God who is in full control over His creation.
Consider these verses:
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil (fallen away babes; a man of sin).
The "day of evil" is when Satan rules over a person from within by the spirit of anti-Christ. This is in contrast to the "Day of the Lord" when Christ rules over a person from within by the Holy Spirit. This concept applies: First comes the natural, then comes the spiritual (1Cor 15:46).
Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Joe
Berean
Well-Known Member
This is very much like the teaching that we have been crucified with Christ that being dead to sin we should live unto God but denies that he died for our sins and are justified
[Rom 6:6 KJV] 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
[Gal 2:20 KJV] 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
[Gal 5:24 KJV] 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
[Gal 6:14 KJV] 14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
[Mat 24:9 KJV] 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Jesus was telling his disciples that they would be afflicted in the tribulation
[Mat 24:13 KJV] 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Israel had to endure to the end of the tribulation to enter their promised prophetic kingdom on earth; they had to remain faithful and righteous by keeping the commandments and not take the mark.
[Mat 24:14 KJV] 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
The gospel of the kingdom was preached to Israel; the gospel told them to repent for the kingdom of heaven (the kingdom on earth) was at hand.
[Mat 24:29, 31 KJV] 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: ... 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
After the tribulation the believing remnant of Israel is gathered
[Mat 24:40 KJV] 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
This is saying that the believing remnant of Israel will be taken to enter the kingdom but the wicked unbelievers will be left to face judgement and be destroyed
Matthew 24:40 above is not about the "rapture" its about the true Israel being saved to enter the kingdom
Dear Doug,
To understand what Paul said in the verses that you quoted, you have to understand them spiritually and not carnally.
The events that are presented by Christ and the other writers of the NT are teaching about the spiritual events that happen within a single Elect person. The events do not happen out in the world. They happen within the spiritual world within the believer.
When Christ gives a person the Early Rain of the Spirit, a babe is formed within the person. The babe gives the person their faith as long as the babe rules the person's mind. But because the person is not converted, the child of the Devil still remains within the person, too. Because both remain within the person, a spiritual war develops. The war is over who will govern the person's mind (their beliefs and carnal traits). This war will continue until one side is defeated.
During this spiritual war within a babe, Satan will come to the aid of the child of the Devil and strengthen him via the spirit of anti-Christ. With this added support of deception, the child of the Devil will win the war and govern the person's mind. When he does, the believer will become unfaithful and be made "worse than the first". The spiritual war and death of a babe is presented in the three scriptures below:
Mat 24:6 “And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things (the spiritual war) must come to pass, but the end is not yet (moment of conversion). 7 “For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom (Christ’s kingdom vs. Satan’s kingdom within the babe). And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 “All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations (false beliefs & carnal character traits of the child of the Devil) for My name’s sake.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast (Satan/spirit of anti-Christ) that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. 8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death (Satan/spirit of anti-Christ), and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
While the believer lays dead in the streets of Jerusalem, the believer is fully under the control of Satan and has become a man of sin. They will remain in this fallen away condition until Christ comes a second time to them. When Christ comes, He will pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit and strengthen the child of God within the believer. It is at this time that believer is revived and birthed as a child of God. This event is shown below:
Rev 11:11 And after three days and a half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the (great) tribulation of those days (while the believer is a man of sin) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Because the baptism of the Holy Spirit comes with power, the child of God within the believer quickly wins the spiritual war and the person is made faithful again. Christ will then appear and begin His judgment upon the person. During that judgment, Christ will remove and destroy the person's marred spirit & spirit of anti-Christ and cast them into the Lake of Fire for destruction. After this judgment is complete, the person is converted.
The verses below present this judgment:
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field (contained in one believer); the one shall be taken (the man of sin/spirit of anti-Christ), and the other left (child of God). 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken (the Great Harlot/marred spirit), and the other left (new divine spirit).
Now that the believer is converted, they spiritual war within them will end. The believer will then be at peace within themselves. The little child can start maturing into a man of full age.
Christ accomplishes the person's spiritual growth by continuing to feed the person His bread and New Wine. When the believer sins, Christ will chastise them until the remaining beliefs and character traits of the Old Man are destroyed. The Old Man's death is a slow death and that is why Paul says he is crucified with Christ.
John the Baptist is a "type" for the Old Man. He said this:
John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
The verse below also applies to the chastising judgment of the Old Man:
Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the (New) earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
The spirit word "earth" represents a person's spirit. The Old Earth represents mankind's marred spirit (Great Harlot) and the New Earth represents a converted person's new divine spirit. Christ chastising judgment will come from the new divine spirit. As it does, the child will learn righteousness and grow into a perfect man of full age.
Joe
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Doug,
I learned it by studying God's Word over a period of several years after my conversion. This verse applies:
Prov 2:1 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, 2 making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; 3 yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, 4 if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.
Joe
Doug,
I know other converted believers who also have the gift of knowledge & teaching who teach what I have been presenting to you. But I did not learn it from them. I learned it by being guided by the Spirit of Truth. You will not find most of what I teach in any church because the churches of this world are full of apostate babes. They are little more than places where the blind lead the blind.
Even teachers like Billy Graham are apostate. I've heard that sometimes when Billy Graham would give an alter call at the end of his preaching, he would say not to pray for the people who need to come forward. He would say that they need to make their decision from their own free will ability to do so. This belief is the foundation of Satan's false gospel.
One of the keys to knowing if what you believe is true is being able to study scripture and never find any contradicting verses. The teachings of the apostate church are contradicted by many, many scriptures. The bread they have consumed is fully leavened:
Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
The woman is the Great Harlot (marred spirit) who takes leaven from Satan/spirit of anti-Christ. She then hides the leaven (represents deception) in three measures of meal (truth of Christ) until the whole loaf is leavened. This leavened bread is what all apostate babes consume, all the while believing it to be the truth of Christ.
Joe
Describe this please.....is it like a lightbulb....is it a voice like you heard before....I am sincerely interested
the kingdom of heaven is the prophetic kingdom on earth during the millennial rule of Christ.....the parables all taught aspects of the kingdom......the kingdom is like etc
Dear Doug,
No voices, just scripture and guidance of the Holy Spirit.
When I have trouble understanding a verse, I pray about it and study scripture. The "light bulb" can come on at anytime; while I'm driving, showering, in bed, etc.
For example, last night when I answered your post #41, I was feeling unsettled by my response to you when I was lying in bed trying to go to sleep. Suddenly I realized why and went back down stairs and edited my post to you. The answer was simple; the child of the devil does not and cannot have faith in Christ so as to be covered by Christ's atonement. For that reason, he will perish. Only the child of God can have faith so only the child of God will be saved.
I will expand on my answer a little more below.
The child of the Devil (all mankind) is "condemned already" because he cannot believe.
John 3:18 He (the child of God) that believeth on him is not condemned: but he (the child of the Devil) that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
This verse also applies:
1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
To make it possible for a person to have faith, Christ must come to them without their asking or permission and give them the Early Rain of the Spirit. This event symbolically creates the child of God within the person. When this child governs the mind of the person, the person themselves becomes a child of God who has faith. But when the child of the Devil governs their mind, the babe will become unfaithful (mix in works) because the truth of Christ is foolishness to the child of the Devil.
Christ said it this way:
Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
An unconverted babe will "taste" the New Wine and find that they prefer the Old Wine. This happens because a babe will remain carnally minded after being given the Early Rain. The ministers of Satan will re-enforce this preference by teaching them a false gospel that mixes works with faith. Since this false gospel is pleasing to the babe, the babe will quickly accept it as truth.
Paul said this about a babe who falls away after having tasted the heavenly gift. The Early Rain is a small amount and Paul refers to it has a "taste" of the Spirit:
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and age-enduring judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift (Early Rain), and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God (milk), and the powers of the world to come 6 if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance (from dead works): seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
In this fallen away condition, the believer cannot renew themselves to repentance. Their only hope is for Christ to come to them a second time. When Christ comes, He will pour out the Latter Rain upon them. The Latter Rain will heal their spiritual blindness. At that time, they will then see that they had been deceived and will repent of their works. After they do, their faithfulness will be restored.
Though Paul does not state this remedy for the restoration of a fallen away babe in the verses above, other scriptures do. The concept of "here a little, and there a little" applies.
2Tim 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Joe
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Dear Doug,
The Kingdom of Heaven is where all converted believers spiritually dwell. When a person is converted, they will enter the Kingdom of Heaven at that time.
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Christ is the Kingdom of Heaven. When a person is converted, they are "in Christ" and are in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Other related terms: The "sea" is where unbelievers dwell and the "earth" is where unconverted babes dwell.
Isa 62:11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the age (moment of conversion), Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
The reward of entering the Kingdom of Heaven and reigning with Christ for a "thousand years" first happens during the conversion process of an Elect believer. The symbol "thousand years" is like a "day" (the Day of the Lord) and it is "twice told" (Ecc 6:6).
The first time the Elect experience the "thousand years" is when they reign with Christ over their own judgment. This is presented in Rev 19:11-21 and Rev 20:1-6. The second time the Elect reign with Christ is in the final age when the balance of mankind is judged. The "thousand years" is not literal time. It is a spirit word which represents the two judgments in which the Elect reign with Christ.
Also, the parables that begin with the phrase "the Kingdom of Heaven is like" are teachings on certain aspects of the pathway to salvation (how to enter into it).
Joe
