IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[Scott Downey]

[Mar 13:24 KJV] 24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

This verse says it occurs AFTER the tribulation................isnt the rapture before the tribulation?

[Mar 13:27 KJV] 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The elect is believing Israel who have been scattered

Not in my mind. It is contemporaneous, the rapture occurs at the one and only second coming of Christ.
That is my view. Believing Israel will be gathered at the same time with believing gentiles.

 

[amigo de christo]

Not in my mind. It is contemporaneous, the rapture occurs at the one and only second coming of Christ.
That is my view. Believing Israel will be gathered at the same time with believing gentiles.

Hey scott . Great scotts that word was six syllables , contemporaneous , sheesh dont ya know
according to popular belief ol amigo struggles even with two syllable words . Six
i only got five toes , now i gotta take of the other shoe to get to six .
Do you ever remember the saying of great
truth told BY JESUS
that said For the children of this world are wiser in their own generation than the children of light .
YEAH they gonna think the sheep are DUMBIES .

 

[Doug]

Paul did not form the body of Christ, he merely explained it by teaching the analogy - 1 Corinthians 12:4-27 (WEB):

(4) Now there are various kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.​

(5) There are various kinds of service, and the same Lord.​

(6) There are various kinds of workings, but the same God, who works all things in all.​

(7) But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the profit of all.​

(8) For to one is given through the Spirit the word of wisdom, and to another the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;​

(9) to another faith, by the same Spirit; and to another gifts of healings, by the same Spirit;​

(10) and to another workings of miracles; and to another prophecy; and to another discerning of spirits; to another different kinds of languages; and to another the interpretation of languages.​

(11) But the one and the same Spirit produces all of these, distributing to each one separately as he desires.​

(12) For as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of the body, being many, are one body; so also is Christ.​

(13) For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all given to drink into one Spirit.​

(14) For the body is not one member, but many.​

(15) If the foot would say, “Because I’m not the hand, I’m not part of the body,” it is not therefore not part of the body.​

(16) If the ear would say, “Because I’m not the eye, I’m not part of the body,” it’s not therefore not part of the body.​

(17) If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the smelling be?​

(18) But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body, just as he desired.​

(19) If they were all one member, where would the body be?​

(20) But now they are many members, but one body.​

(21) The eye can’t tell the hand, “I have no need for you,” or again the head to the feet, “I have no need for you.”​

(22) No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary.​

(23) Those parts of the body which we think to be less honorable, on those we bestow more abundant honor; and our unpresentable parts have more abundant propriety;​

(24) whereas our presentable parts have no such need. But God composed the body together, giving more abundant honor to the inferior part,​

(25) that there should be no division in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.​

(26) When one member suffers, all the members suffer with it. Or when one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.​

(27) Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.​

I dont know what you are trying to say here

 

[rebuilder 454]

You might want to consider another view on the wheat and the tares
It is not about the rapture

[Mat 13:39, 41 KJV] 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. ... 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

The harvest is the end of the world when Christ comes to establish his earthly kingdom......he will remove the unjust from his kingdom and judge them

Note this is not the rapture.........it is the end of the world

The righteous who are the believing Israel will enter the kingdom

Yep.
Hard to believe postribs and amils can not grasp when the tares are burned.

 

[Doug]

Not in my mind. It is contemporaneous, the rapture occurs at the one and only second coming of Christ.
That is my view. Believing Israel will be gathered at the same time with believing gentiles.

Ok but there is nothing in those parables that apply to meeting him in the air

 

[rebuilder 454]

Hey scott . Great scotts that word was six syllables , contemporaneous , sheesh dont ya know
according to popular belief ol amigo struggles even with two syllable words . Six
i only got five toes , now i gotta take of the other shoe to get to six .
Do you ever remember the saying of great
truth told BY JESUS
that said For the children of this world are wiser in their own generation than the children of light .
YEAH they gonna think the sheep are DUMBIES .

Rev 14:14

A superb doctrine destroyer.
Once it is on the table, unmolested, un modified, un tortured, only pretrib rapture fits like a glove.
Nothing else comes even remotely close.
A thread killer big time.

But of course the Ole personal attack card can keep things rolling....
Lol

 

[rebuilder 454]

Paul himself would have rebuked those who preach pauline doctrine .
Cuase it contradicts paul himself . But they cannot see this .
What is known as pauline , Was not of paul , was not of Christ it was a blending of something
that men desired , NOT GOD .
I have watched men pit paul against james
jude against paul , peter against paul and so on it goes .
NOT a one of them contradicted TRUTH nor one another .
Every letter written is for the good of the church .

True
Every word.
Otherwise there are 2 Holy Spirits.
And it is impossible.
The bible is not a book of tricks, with some hidden gospels that some elite group can only claim truth.

Jesus said " my sheep hear my voice"
Hyper paulines put Paul ahead of Jesus.

No wonder they DO NOT HEAR HIS VOICE...they stay away from the gospels.
( the voice of God)

 

[Scott Downey]

Ok but there is nothing in those parables that apply to meeting him in the air

Sure, but it is the same event. I know you create this separation from the Day of the Lord, which to me is artificial.
When Paul teaches the rapture, Paul calls it the Day of the Lord.
When Peter teaches the new heavens and earth, Peter calls it the Day of the Lord.
I follow what they taught.
Much of 1 and 2 Thessalonians is about the coming Day of the Lord Jesus.
As in when He descends from heaven, comes back.
What gets me, is people say the rapture occurs and Christ delays His coming, when Paul clearly teaches the church that they will experience the Day of Christ's return, and that means their salvation and a sudden destruction of the wicked.

1 Thessalonians 5:2
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be [a]sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

And actually it does, it comes as a thief, and at night, cause the natural lights of the creation dim and go out.

1 Thess 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Rapture equals our being gathered to Christ when He descends from heaven
2 Thess 1

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

 

[amigo de christo]

Rev 14:14

A superb doctrine destroyer.
Once it is on the table, unmolested, un modified, un tortured, only pretrib rapture fits like a glove.
Nothing else comes even remotely close.
A thread killer big time.

But of course the Ole personal attack card can keep things rolling....
Lol

what if i told you that men had deceived this people .
What if i told you that what many were taught as pre trib was wrong
But used as a glove they did the version of the wrath of GOD
to include the wrath of the beast .
CAUSE THEY DID THAT .
You see IN THIS WORLD we will have tribulations
What we DONT have to endure is THE WRATH OF GOD
that cometh to DESTROY the wicked , those who loved a lie , those who worshipped the beast , its image
and heeded the FALSE prophet and its false prophets .
The very voices that CONVINCED the world in a last hour moment
to rid the earth of the sheep , of which many of the sheep WILL BLEED .
We are delivered from THE WRATH OF GOD , not of men .
The sooner folks realize that the better .
The beast cometh against the saints , not the left behind , but the SAINTS
The wrath of GOD cometh against those who followed said beast and thus put to death the saints .
OH but they wont never see it like that . OH NO sir . NO SIR rebuilder,
WHEN They come for men like me and the true who would not conform
GUESS what most all of christendom and its lovey do merged religoins and peoples will beleive .
THIS
Oh this are but dangerous terrorists , haters , fundamentals who are a threat to global peace n safety .
OH YEAH WE BEING DUPED BIG TIME . Intefaith IS of ANTI CHRIST and both sides getting played big time .

 

[amigo de christo]

Sure, but it is the same event. I know you create this separation from the Day of the Lord, which to me is artificial.
When Paul teaches the rapture, Paul calls it the Day of the Lord.
When Peter teaches the new heavens and earth, Peter calls it the Day of the Lord.
I follow what they taught.
Much of 1 and 2 Thessalonians is about the coming Day of the Lord Jesus.
As in when He descends from heaven, comes back.
What gets me, is people say the rapture occurs and Christ delays His coming, when Paul clearly teaches the church that they will experience the Day of Christ's return, and that means their salvation and a sudden destruction of the wicked.

1 Thessalonians 5:2
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be [a]sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

And actually it does, it comes as a thief, and at night, cause the natural lights of the creation dim and go out.

1 Thess 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Rapture equals our being gathered to Christ when He descends from heaven
2 Thess 1

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

For when they shall say ..................
what was that phrase again ..........
Lets see was it when they say Jimmy cracked corn and i dont care . NO , no that just doesnt sound right .
Lets try again shall we .
For when they shall say , The end is near sudden destruction cometh upon all who denied JESUS . no
THOUGH THAT IS TRUE . but it wont be what THEY ARE SAYING .
SO what is it they are saying .
PEACE N SAFETY .
now does anyone else see this massive anti christ lie
that is bringing all relgioins and peoples together as one to find common ground
to attain what THEY SO THINK gonna bring world peace n safety . CAUSE I SURE DO . ITS ALL OVER the place
and PEACE n safety is their cry . YEAH , I WOULD DARN SURE SAY the COMING OF JESUS do draw nigh indeed .

 

[Marvelloustime]

For when they shall say ..................
what was that phrase again ..........
Lets see was it when they say Jimmy cracked corn and i dont care . NO , no that just doesnt sound right .
Lets try again shall we .
For when they shall say , The end is near sudden destruction cometh upon all who denied JESUS . no
THOUGH THAT IS TRUE . but it wont be what THEY ARE SAYING .
SO what is it they are saying .
PEACE N SAFETY .
now does anyone else see this massive anti christ lie
that is bringing all relgioins and peoples together as one to find common ground
to attain what THEY SO THINK gonna bring world peace n safety . CAUSE I SURE DO . ITS ALL OVER the place
and PEACE n safety is their cry . YEAH , I WOULD DARN SURE SAY the COMING OF JESUS do draw nigh indeed .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

Hey scott . Great scotts that word was six syllables , contemporaneous , sheesh dont ya know
according to popular belief ol amigo struggles even with two syllable words . Six
i only got five toes , now i gotta take of the other shoe to get to six .
Do you ever remember the saying of great
truth told BY JESUS
that said For the children of this world are wiser in their own generation than the children of light .
YEAH they gonna think the sheep are DUMBIES .

@amigo de christo
Contemporaneous. It’s when things exist in the same window of time.
E.G: Brother lives in the same era of time to sister. We are contemporaneous.

 

[amigo de christo]

@amigo de christo
View attachment 64550

paul used the word SUDDEN destruction
peter uses the word SWIFT destruction . SOUNDS THE SAME TO ME SISTER .
so lets go to and examine what THEY said this world would look like specially as the end drew nigh .
GUESS what i see . And that by grace of course .
THEY DOING IT RIGHT NOW , BIG TIME , larger than EVER and more and more and more and more
do enter into it . SO what do i see
THIS
SUDDEN and SWIFT destruction DRAWS NIGH INDEED unto this people
BUT TO worry not cause WE FLY HOME ON THAT DAY SISTER .
and HOME be WITH JESUS THE CHRIST forever with the KING who saved us . Now that IS HOME
cause as i am sure you are darn aware , THIS PLACE AINT IT
I DONT SEE no new heavens here and no new earth wherein ALL LOVE THE LORD AS ONE
What i see is rather a delusion , a lie
that has come to merge those who did hate GOD , HIS TRUTH , HIS WORDS , HIS GOSPEL
right into a big ol fat sin accepting broadpath accepting lie it calls love and it claims is of GOD
and it even claims YE SHALL HAVE PEACE N SAFETY WE MUST DO THIS now .
SOUNDS like a big ol delusion that has led to rebellion against GOD , HIS CHRIST
from even MOST WHO still dare to lip HIS NAME .
SO , they might think peace n safety , cry peace n safety
BUT THAT AINT what i see a coming on them . CAUSE ONLY THOSE IN CHRIST
have THE PEACE OF GOD . all else , DESTRUCTION . and i might add SUDDENLY and SWIFTLY
as in , IN AN DAY AND AT AN HOUR no man knows , BUT MAN IT IS APPROACHING .
The sheep see the day is approaching . goats cannot , but beware cause goats sure can
dress up in wool .

 

[amigo de christo]

@amigo de christo
Contemporaneous. It’s when things exist in the same window of time.
E.G: Brother lives in the same era of time to sister. We are contemporaneous.

Yeah , and i look forward to one time . THE DAY OF THE KING JESUS wherein
forever shall the sheep be with HIM .
And as for a date ,
NO , it so cometh in an day and in an hour that no man knows .
BUT MAN THE SIGNS SURE WERE CLEAR TO THE SHEEP it was NIGH , even at the door .

 

[Marvelloustime]

paul used the word SUDDEN destruction
peter uses the word SWIFT destruction . SOUNDS THE SAME TO ME SISTER .
so lets go to and examine what THEY said this world would look like specially as the end drew nigh .
GUESS what i see . And that by grace of course .
THEY DOING IT RIGHT NOW , BIG TIME , larger than EVER and more and more and more and more
do enter into it . SO what do i see
THIS
SUDDEN and SWIFT destruction DRAWS NIGH INDEED unto this people
BUT TO worry not cause WE FLY HOME ON THAT DAY SISTER .
and HOME be WITH JESUS THE CHRIST forever with the KING who saved us . Now that IS HOME
cause as i am sure you are darn aware , THIS PLACE AINT IT
I DONT SEE no new heavens here and no new earth wherein ALL LOVE THE LORD AS ONE
What i see is rather a delusion , a lie
that has come to merge those who did hate GOD , HIS TRUTH , HIS WORDS , HIS GOSPEL
right into a big ol fat sin accepting broadpath accepting lie it calls love and it claims is of GOD
and it even claims YE SHALL HAVE PEACE N SAFETY WE MUST DO THIS now .
SOUNDS like a big ol delusion that has led to rebellion against GOD , HIS CHRIST
from even MOST WHO still dare to lip HIS NAME .
SO , they might think peace n safety , cry peace n safety
BUT THAT AINT what i see a coming on them . CAUSE ONLY THOSE IN CHRIST
have THE PEACE OF GOD . all else , DESTRUCTION . and i might add SUDDENLY and SWIFTLY
as in , IN AN DAY AND AT AN HOUR no man knows , BUT MAN IT IS APPROACHING .
The sheep see the day is approaching . goats cannot , but beware cause goats sure can
dress up in wool .

@amigo de christo

 

[Scott Downey]

paul used the word SUDDEN destruction
peter uses the word SWIFT destruction . SOUNDS THE SAME TO ME SISTER .
so lets go to and examine what THEY said this world would look like specially as the end drew nigh .
GUESS what i see . And that by grace of course .
THEY DOING IT RIGHT NOW , BIG TIME , larger than EVER and more and more and more and more
do enter into it . SO what do i see
THIS
SUDDEN and SWIFT destruction DRAWS NIGH INDEED unto this people
BUT TO worry not cause WE FLY HOME ON THAT DAY SISTER .
and HOME be WITH JESUS THE CHRIST forever with the KING who saved us . Now that IS HOME
cause as i am sure you are darn aware , THIS PLACE AINT IT
I DONT SEE no new heavens here and no new earth wherein ALL LOVE THE LORD AS ONE
What i see is rather a delusion , a lie
that has come to merge those who did hate GOD , HIS TRUTH , HIS WORDS , HIS GOSPEL
right into a big ol fat sin accepting broadpath accepting lie it calls love and it claims is of GOD
and it even claims YE SHALL HAVE PEACE N SAFETY WE MUST DO THIS now .
SOUNDS like a big ol delusion that has led to rebellion against GOD , HIS CHRIST
from even MOST WHO still dare to lip HIS NAME .
SO , they might think peace n safety , cry peace n safety
BUT THAT AINT what i see a coming on them . CAUSE ONLY THOSE IN CHRIST
have THE PEACE OF GOD . all else , DESTRUCTION . and i might add SUDDENLY and SWIFTLY
as in , IN AN DAY AND AT AN HOUR no man knows , BUT MAN IT IS APPROACHING .
The sheep see the day is approaching . goats cannot , but beware cause goats sure can
dress up in wool .

Yes these things happen together at the same time of the end.
The time of Christ's return for His people is the Day of Christ.
We will get delivered from this evil age, and the wicked ones who persecute and cause tribulation for the church, He will destroy with a terminal and certain destruction. Then we truly do get to inherit a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Who is the righteous who dwell there? Can only be His people, none of the wicked will be there. The former things will pass away.


As Paul has so taught, written TO THE CHURCH people, not to another people.

2 Thessalonians 1

1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,

To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

God’s Final Judgment and Glory​

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest[b] evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
'and to give you who are troubled'
The you is the church.
Paul writes this to and for the church.

 

[David in NJ]

True
Every word.
Otherwise there are 2 Holy Spirits.
And it is impossible.
The bible is not a book of tricks, with some hidden gospels that some elite group can only claim truth.

Jesus said " my sheep hear my voice"
Hyper paulines put Paul ahead of Jesus.

No wonder they DO NOT HEAR HIS VOICE...they stay away from the gospels.
( the voice of God)

STAY with this TRUTH my Brother in Christ and your will SEE that pre-trib NEVER came out of the Mouth of God

 

[Scott Downey]

STAY with this TRUTH my Brother in Christ and your will SEE that pre-trib NEVER came out of the Mouth of God

Jesus spoke and taught 'post trib' for sure.
Paul did too.

They would know.

 

[Scott Downey]

I don't know what hyper Pauline is, but it makes me think someone who does not like the apostle Paul's teachings.

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus spoke and taught 'post trib' for sure.
Paul did too.

They would know.

Peter, John and James also spoke of post-trib deliverance