Jesus utters the most unbelievable phrase from a religious founder

[KUWN]

That's because Kuwn is falsifying scripture.

John 10:37 " If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me. 38But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father.”

What you just quoted is what I have been saying all along. Look at the red highlighted text that YOU wrote.

37 εἰ οὐ ποιῶ τὰ ἔργα τοῦ πατρός μου, μὴ πιστεύετέ μοι·38 εἰ δὲ ποιῶ, κἂν ἐμοὶ μὴ πιστεύητε, τοῖς ἔργοις πιστεύετε, ἵνα γνῶτε καὶ γινώσκητε ὅτι ἐν ἐμοὶ ὁ πατὴρ κἀγὼ ἐν τῷ πατρί.

Would anyone care to show me where I am wrong.

 

[Hidden In Him]

What you just quoted is what I have been saying all along

Not quite, LoL. Like I said, you inverted the phrasing.

Clever riddle, so I'm not gonna argue it to death, but technically you were taking a few liberties in translation. You are educated enough to know how εἰ οὐ ποιῶ τὰ ἔργα τοῦ πατρός μου, μὴ πιστεύετέ μοι· should be translated more strictly.

Or do you have me on block from our last conversation?

Blessings,
Hidden

 

[KUWN]

What critical text? There is not a single MSS [sic] in existence that does not have εἰ οὐ ποιῶ τὰ ἔργα τοῦ πατρός μου, μὴ πιστεύετέ μοι·

Did you check them all? Be careful with your use of double negatives.

 

[KUWN]

Not quite, LoL. Like I said, you inverted the phrasing.

Clever riddle, so I'm not gonna argue it to death, but technically you were taking a few liberties in translation. You are educated enough to know how εἰ οὐ ποιῶ τὰ ἔργα τοῦ πατρός μου, μὴ πιστεύετέ μοι· should be translated more strictly.

Or do you have me on block from our last conversation?

Blessings,
Hidden

You are basing this on English Translations, not the Greek Critical Text.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Did you check them all? Be careful with your use of double negatives.

Everything under the sun as far as I can see, LoL. If you have a text, what is it?

 

[Hidden In Him]

You are basing this on English Translations, not the Greek Critical Text.

LoL!

Come on, KUWN. I'm basing it on every MSS known to man so far as I can tell. If you have a text that says anything different, PRODUCE IT PLEASE.

 

[Lambano]

I ran the logical truth tables (don't they teach basic logic in school anymore?), and "Do not put your faith in me unless I do the works of my Father" and "If I do not do the works of My Father, believe Me not." are logically equivalent. Belief conditioned on whether or not Jesus does the works of the Father. There's nothing to see here.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I ran the logical truth tables (don't they teach basic logic in school anymore?), and "Do not put your faith in me unless I do the works of my Father" and "If I do not do the works of My Father, believe Me not." are logically equivalent. Belief conditioned on whether or not Jesus does the works of the Father. There's nothing to see here.

They are largely equivalent in meaning, Lambano. It's just that KUWN was packaging the sentence to mean something entirely foreign to what the text actually says.

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

I ran the logical truth tables (don't they teach basic logic in school anymore?), and "Do not put your faith in me unless I do the works of my Father" and "If I do not do the works of My Father, believe Me not." are logically equivalent. Belief conditioned on whether or not Jesus does the works of the Father. There's nothing to see here.

Except that Kuwn started this discussion with this:"What is your take on Jesus when he said, 'Do not put your faith in me.Can you imagine any founder of any religious movement where the leader tells the follower to NOT put your faith in me. "

 

[Lambano]

They are largely equivalent in meaning, Lambano. It's just that KUWN was packaging the sentence to mean something entirely foreign to what the text actually says.

Except that Kuwn started this discussion with this:"What is your take on Jesus when he said, 'Do not put your faith in me.'

Let's see how he handles the "unless" condition.

 

[PS95]

I am using the critical text of the Greek NT. You are probably reading other people's opinions in an English Translation.

John 10:37
εἰ οὐ ποιῶ τὰ ἔργα τοῦ πατρός μου μὴ πιστεύετέ μοι

IF- I do not (phrase)- do the works - of my (phrase)- Father- do not (phrase)- believe- me.

That is very far from saying don't put your faith in me.- IOW- don't believe me just because I say so, anyone can say anything- believe what I do. The works were So YOU DO BELIEVE HIM.
Remember, they were saying he did miracles by Satan's power? They were accusing Him of blasphemy there. He is merely saying look at what I do! Don't look at me in this flesh. Look at the miracles!

We prove our faith by our works. He proved who He was by His works.-

 

[Scott Downey]

John 10:37
εἰ οὐ ποιῶ τὰ ἔργα τοῦ πατρός μου μὴ πιστεύετέ μοι

IF- I do not (phrase)- do the works - of my (phrase)- Father- do not (phrase)- believe- me.

That is very far from saying don't put your faith in me.- IOW- don't believe me just because I say so, anyone can say anything- believe what I do. The works were So YOU DO BELIEVE HIM.
Remember, they were saying he did miracles by Satan's power? They were accusing Him of blasphemy there. He is merely saying look at what I do! Don't look at me in this flesh. Look at the miracles!

We prove our faith by our works. He proved who He was by His works.-

John 5:36
But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.

 

[Rockerduck]

I am using the critical text of the Greek NT. You are probably reading other people's opinions in an English Translation.

If you are using nd28, don't forget there was a nd1. That's 28 revisions of Westcott and Horts' corrupt text, by one occultist and one bible hater. Many bible translations are corrupt because of this. Stick with the KJV for the correct Greek.

 

[Taken]

What is your take on Jesus when he said, 'Do not put your faith in me.' Can you imagine any founder of any religious movement where the leader tells the follower to NOT put your faith in me. You will have to search to find this phrase, but it is well worth your time. It will give you a grasp of what kind of faith Christ requires.

Jesus utters the most unbelievable phrase from a religious founder​

I do not find in Scripture the “quote you reference,”

Jesus came AS a man, to be Seen by men

Belief is one thing.
Faith is another thing.

It is Natural for men to Believe, what they SEE.
Jesus was SENT to BE SEEN.

Jesus was SENT to accomplish “ Particular” things.

ONE of those things, WAS to teach, preach, edify, glorify God, by, through, of Teaching, preaching for men to put their Faith in God in Heaven….NOT a man…as Jesus stood facing them “appearing AS a man”..

Gods mysterious ways.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[PS95]

If you are using nd28, don't forget there was a nd1. That's 28 revisions of Westcott and Horts' corrupt text, by one occultist and one bible hater. Many bible translations are corrupt because of this. Stick with the KJV for the correct Greek.

It's not the Greek.- It's just his poor interpreting. Why are you confused?

 

[Rockerduck]

It's not the Greek.- It's just his poor interpreting. Why are you confused?

I'm not confused about critical text, which uses ND28.

 

[PS95]

I'm not confused about critical text, which uses ND28.

The Greek is also the same in wescott H. But He posted the same Greek that I did. This is not a matter of the Greek. He just can't comprehend what it says.
Didn't you say you are a pastor?

 

[Rockerduck]

The Greek is also the same in wescott H. But He posted the same Greek that I did. This is not a matter of the Greek. He just can't comprehend what it says.
Didn't you say you are a pastor?

Former and retired, but emeritus, meaning, sometimes., long time KJV user. Not a pastor, an evangelist.

 

[PS95]

Former and retired, but emeritus, meaning, sometimes., long time KJV user.

Ok well, the kjv and nasb are the same there. Surely you've read that verse before. I have no idea why anyone is confused. He is lifting part of a sentence with red. No idea why other than to make it lose it's context. I am so tired of people doing that. It happens far too much, especially with the cults. But Christians sometimes do it too. It's an awful thing to do.
Yes, Jesus performed miracles to show that He is the Son of God. I mean who doesn't know that? He was doing the works of His Father.
As @Scott Downey pointed out it goes along with this--

John 5:36
But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.

 

[Rockerduck]

Ok well, the kjv and nasb are the same there. Surely you've read that verse before. I have no idea why anyone is confused. He is lifting part of a sentence with red. No idea why other than to make it lose it's context. I am so tired of people doing that. It happens far too much, especially with the cults. But Christians sometimes do it too. It's an awful thing to do.
Yes, Jesus performed miracles to show that He is the Son of God. I mean who doesn't know that? He was doing the works of His Father.
As @Scott Downey pointed out it goes along with this--

John 5:36
But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.

I'm used to just correcting verse usage and context that twist the meaning, more than Greek usage. More, defending the bible. I have and use the NASB 95 also but started using the LSB instead. I worked with the Billy Graham association in the 90's, and Billy Graham only used the KJV, so all of us used it also. Back then you would be coitized for using a different bible, with the exception of the NASB 95.