IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[christsavedme]

[1Corinthians 15:51-55 KJV] 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

[1Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJV] 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

These verses establish that we will be gathered together to meet the Lord in the air. It is established that this gathering is a mystery, hid in God, until revealed to Paul. The gathering, being a mystery, can only be for the church, the body of Christ. This gathering is commonly referred to as the rapture, although that term is not found in scripture; nevertheless I will use it for familiarity sake.

The question before us is; is the rapture before the tribulation.

There is no definitive statement to this effect, however, there is scripture to consider that will support the belief that the rapture occurs before the tribulation.

[Romans 5:9 KJV] 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Here Paul says the church, the body of Christ, will be saved from wrath.

[1Thessalonians 5:9 KJV] 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Here Paul confirms the body of Christ is not appointed to wrath.

[1Thessalonians 1:10 KJV] 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

We are delivered from the wrath to come.

[Luk 3:7 KJV] 7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

John the Baptist spoke unto the people of Israel to flee the wrath to come. What is the wrath to come?

[Revelation 11:18 KJV] 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
[Rev 14:10, 19 KJV] 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: ... 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
[Rev 15:1, 7 KJV] 1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. ... 7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
[Rev 16:1 KJV] 1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
[Rev 19:15 KJV] 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Clearly the great tribulation is the wrath to come. We will not go through the wrath poured out in the tribulation.

[2Thessalonians 2:1-2 KJV] 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Paul is speaking about the coming of Christ, which he calls the day of Christ in verse 2. In the day of Christ the man of sin will be destroyed by the brightness of his coming in verse 8.

Paul also speaks of our gathering together, the rapture, in verse 1 and tells them not to be troubled because the rapture event is associated with his coming and is not at hand.

[2Thessalonians 2:3, 6-8 KJV] 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; ... 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The man of sin must be revealed before the coming of Christ, the day of Christ. What withholds the revealing of the wicked man of sin is the body of Christ; when the body of Christ is raptured and taken out of the way, he will be revealed.

The last scripture to consider follows:

[2Timothy 2:17-18 KJV] 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

The question is what resurrection is past.

The first to consider is the resurrection at the last day, at the end of the tribulation. Could this be the resurrection that they were saying happened already?

Look at scripture about this resurrection:

[Matthew 24:29-30 KJV] 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

These celestial events occur at the coming of Christ.

[Matthew 25:31 KJV] 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

When Christ comes he will establish his kingdom (Matthew 25:34) on earth and sit on David's throne (Luke 1:32).

[Matthew 8:11 KJV] 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

This verses establishes that there will be a resurrection of the just at his coming to establish the kingdom on earth.

It would be impossible to miss this resurrection; how could one not see all the celestial events and Christ coming to earth and the resurrection of the old testament saints.

The only resurrection that they were saying was past would be the rapture.

Your post really dives deep into the rapture and its timing—love how you pulled all those Scriptures together! The way you explained the mystery of the gathering in 1 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians makes it so clear that this is something special for the church. It’s super comforting to think about being caught up to meet Jesus in the air, especially with all the hope in those verses.

I appreciate how you connected the idea of being saved from wrath in Romans and Thessalonians to the tribulation being God’s wrath. It’s a strong point that we’re not appointed to go through that. The part about the man of sin and the body of Christ being taken out of the way before he’s revealed? That’s such an interesting take—it really ties the rapture to the bigger picture of Christ’s return. And your point about the resurrection not being missable because of all the cosmic signs? That totally makes sense.

Thanks for laying this out so thoughtfully! It’s got me thinking about how God’s plan unfolds and how we can hold onto hope while waiting for Jesus. Looking forward to more of your insights!

 

[Doug]

Yes — Paul called the resurrection and rapture a mystery revealed (1 Cor. 15:51).
That means it was hidden in clarity, not that it was absent from prophecy.

Please show me the verses you are talking about in prophecy

 

[Doug]

“I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.”
— Matthew 13:35

Jesus in the parables was teaching the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.....the earthly kingdom

 

[Doug]

Who’s coming from heaven when the elect are gathered?

angels....................[Mat 25:31 KJV] 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

 

[Doug]

You're admitting the wicked were taken in the flood — but now claiming that when Jesus references it, He suddenly means something totally different by “taken”?

I looked more into Matthew 24:40-41 and need to correct myself.........the one taken is taken in judgment as you say....the one left will enter the earthly kingdom

 

[Doug]

Let me help lurkers reading this what a mystery revealed actually means:

It doesn’t mean God never hinted at it.
It means He didn’t reveal it fully or clearly until the appointed time — and when He did, He didn’t contradict Himself.

[Eph 3:9 KJV] 9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Mystery was hid / concealed

[1Co 2:7 KJV] 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
its hidden wisdom

 

[Doug]

So now you're trying to tell me that when Paul says the mystery was "hidden from ages and generations," that means Jesus couldn’t possibly speak of it in any form?

He could but didnt

 

[Doug]

You say “taken” = raptured
But Jesus says “taken” = swept away in judgment

You say “left” = judged
But Noah was left behind — and he lived

As I said I corrected myself and agree taken is judgement and left is salvation
I still hold to it not being the rapture for us however

 

[Doug]

So according to your Scofield logic, Jesus can’t teach about mysteries, even though He literally says He’s doing that?

Jesus determined to hide the mystery revealed to Paul.....the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 could not be about the church the body of Christ elect because it would no longer be hidden

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Scofieldism isn’t just error — it’s a direct contradiction of Jesus, Paul, and the early Church.

Jesus returns once.
The trumpet sounds once.
The resurrection happens once.
And if you miss it — there is no sequel.
Is the rapture before the tribulation? No

Not in the words of Jesus.
Not in the writings of Paul.
Not in the faith of the early Church.
Only in the fantasies of 20th-century Zionist fiction and within Scofield's heresy.

The only way you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture is if you’ve traded the Gospel of Jesus Christ for the fictional ravings of Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, and Jack Van Impe.

 

[Doug]

Your post really dives deep into the rapture and its timing—love how you pulled all those Scriptures together! The way you explained the mystery of the gathering in 1 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians makes it so clear that this is something special for the church. It’s super comforting to think about being caught up to meet Jesus in the air, especially with all the hope in those verses.

I appreciate how you connected the idea of being saved from wrath in Romans and Thessalonians to the tribulation being God’s wrath. It’s a strong point that we’re not appointed to go through that. The part about the man of sin and the body of Christ being taken out of the way before he’s revealed? That’s such an interesting take—it really ties the rapture to the bigger picture of Christ’s return. And your point about the resurrection not being missable because of all the cosmic signs? That totally makes sense.

Thanks for laying this out so thoughtfully! It’s got me thinking about how God’s plan unfolds and how we can hold onto hope while waiting for Jesus. Looking forward to more of your insights!

Thanks I am glad you found some benefit and hope

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

I still hold to it not being the rapture for us however

Jesus Christ literally tells you word for word - “As in the days of Noah… they knew not until the flood came and took them all away. So shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.”

Who got taken in the flood?
The wicked.

Who was left behind?
Noah — the righteous.

“As in the days of Noah… they (THE WICKED) knew not until the flood came and took them all away (judged). So shall also the coming of the Son of Man be (the wicked will be judged in the same way).” - He makes a direct comparison that is inarguable. Just as the wicked got handled during the time of Noah, they're going to be dealt the same fate when He returns. He couldn't have made it any clearer.

“So shall it be.”

Not maybe.
Not metaphor.
Not a Scofield footnote.
Jesus said it. That settles it.

Not — “As in the days of Noah… the wicked were caught off guard and swept away in judgment… and that’s exactly how I’m going to treat My faithful followers too — by removing them like the wicked!”

That’s not theology.
That’s Scofieldian INSANITY.
A complete inversion of reality — where judgment becomes reward and Christ starts rapturing the wrong people on purpose.

You’d have to be utterly brainwashed to read Jesus’ direct warning about the wicked being taken and somehow twist that into a pre-trib rescue mission for the Church.

 

[Doug]

You’d have to be utterly brainwashed to read Jesus’ direct warning about the wicked being taken and somehow twist that into a pre-trib rescue mission for the Church.

I dont get your reply here
I said I was confused about who was taken and who was left......the wicked are taken and destroyed at the return of Christ.........this has nothing to do with the rapture pre trib or not unless you are saying it does

 

[Doug]

“As in the days of Noah… they (THE WICKED) knew not until the flood came and took them all away (judged). So shall also the coming of the Son of Man be (the wicked will be judged in the same way).” - He makes a direct comparison that is inarguable. Just as the wicked got handled during the time of Noah, they're going to be dealt the same fate when He returns. He couldn't have made it any clearer.

The flood is definitely related as an illustration of his return

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Scofield had to make Christians buy into a pre-trib rapture to pull off the biggest theological con job in Church history—convincing them that the Body of Christ isn't Israel. That was the linchpin. If believers understood that they are the fulfillment of God's covenant—they are the seed of Abraham through faith in Christ—then there’d be no room left for this modern Zionist abomination masquerading as prophecy. But Scofield, backed by the Rothschilds, British elites, and the Oxford press, crafted footnotes so deceptive, so surgically tailored, that they didn’t just change opinions—they reprogrammed the entire Church.

This wasn’t innocent error. This was strategic spiritual sabotage. The modern nation calling itself “Israel”—a land annexed in 1948 with blood, bullets, and banking deals—was marketed as the fulfillment of prophecy. And in order for Christians to swallow that lie, they first had to be cut out of the covenant. That’s what Scofield did. He surgically removed the Church from its place as the Israel of God and replaced it with a Christ-rejecting political state propped up by global elites. And the hook that made it all work? The two-stage return of Jesus. The so-called “secret rapture” before the tribulation, and then a second return years later. This is nowhere in Scripture. Jesus said He comes once. With fire. With angels. With a trumpet. And when He comes, the wicked are taken, not the righteous. But Scofield’s heresy flipped the script, reversed judgment and reward, and told Christians that they’d be yanked out of the way so God could “deal with Israel” again. Not the Israel that believes in Messiah. No—ethnic, unbelieving, Christ-denying Israel.

This wasn’t just a doctrinal shift. This was a full-blown replacement of the Gospel. Instead of preaching Christ crucified, we now have entire denominations preaching “stand with Israel” as if waving a flag earns you righteousness. The Church became Zionism’s marketing arm, not Christ’s body. And the sickest part? They fund it. With billions. Supporting a state that spits on the Messiah while calling it “God’s chosen.”

Scofield didn’t just get it wrong—he intentionally handed the Church over to the synagogue of Satan, dressed it up in Bible quotes, and made Christians cheer for their own theological execution. Jesus flipped tables for far less. This is not a mistake. It is the greatest act of theological treason since Judas kissed the Lord and handed Him over. If you can read the New Testament and still claim the modern state of Israel is the fulfillment of God’s promise, then you’re not following Christ. You’re following Scofield. And if your end-times theology was written in the margins of a Rockefeller-funded Bible printed in Oxford, you might want to check which kingdom you're actually promoting. Because it sure isn’t the one Jesus preached.

 

[Doug]

Scofield had to make Christians buy into a pre-trib rapture to pull off the biggest theological con job in Church history—convincing them that the Body of Christ isn't Israel. That was the linchpin. If believers understood that they are the fulfillment of God's covenant—they are the seed of Abraham through faith in Christ—then there’d be no room left for this modern Zionist abomination masquerading as prophecy. But Scofield, backed by the Rothschilds, British elites, and the Oxford press, crafted footnotes so deceptive, so surgically tailored, that they didn’t just change opinions—they reprogrammed the entire Church.

This wasn’t innocent error. This was strategic spiritual sabotage. The modern nation calling itself “Israel”—a land annexed in 1948 with blood, bullets, and banking deals—was marketed as the fulfillment of prophecy. And in order for Christians to swallow that lie, they first had to be cut out of the covenant. That’s what Scofield did. He surgically removed the Church from its place as the Israel of God and replaced it with a Christ-rejecting political state propped up by global elites. And the hook that made it all work? The two-stage return of Jesus. The so-called “secret rapture” before the tribulation, and then a second return years later. This is nowhere in Scripture. Jesus said He comes once. With fire. With angels. With a trumpet. And when He comes, the wicked are taken, not the righteous. But Scofield’s heresy flipped the script, reversed judgment and reward, and told Christians that they’d be yanked out of the way so God could “deal with Israel” again. Not the Israel that believes in Messiah. No—ethnic, unbelieving, Christ-denying Israel.

This wasn’t just a doctrinal shift. This was a full-blown replacement of the Gospel. Instead of preaching Christ crucified, we now have entire denominations preaching “stand with Israel” as if waving a flag earns you righteousness. The Church became Zionism’s marketing arm, not Christ’s body. And the sickest part? They fund it. With billions. Supporting a state that spits on the Messiah while calling it “God’s chosen.”

Scofield didn’t just get it wrong—he intentionally handed the Church over to the synagogue of Satan, dressed it up in Bible quotes, and made Christians cheer for their own theological execution. Jesus flipped tables for far less. This is not a mistake. It is the greatest act of theological treason since Judas kissed the Lord and handed Him over. If you can read the New Testament and still claim the modern state of Israel is the fulfillment of God’s promise, then you’re not following Christ. You’re following Scofield. And if your end-times theology was written in the margins of a Rockefeller-funded Bible printed in Oxford, you might want to check which kingdom you're actually promoting. Because it sure isn’t the one Jesus preached.

I dont know anything about this or care.......I endeavour to compare any position be it mine or others by scripture.......if Scofield or Darby or whoever is right according to scripture so be it....if it doesnt align with scripture discard it
The church is not the Israel of God,,,,,,it is believing Israel

You have not addressed any of my replies

 

[Doug]

they are the seed of Abraham through faith in Christ—

[Gal 3:29 KJV] 29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

We are Christ's not Abraham

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

I dont know anything about this or care.......I endeavour to compare any position be it mine or others by scripture.......if Scofield or Darby or whoever is right according to scripture so be it....if it doesnt align with scripture discard it
The church is not the Israel of God,,,,,,it is believing Israel

You have not addressed any of my replies

You say the Church is not the Israel of God — that it’s “believing Israel.” That’s double-speak. You’ve just admitted my point without realizing it. Paul doesn’t say “believing Israel.” He says: There is neither Jew nor Greek… you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:28–29)

The New Testament doesn’t teach two Israels. It teaches one Body — those in Christ. Not “ethnic Israel,” not “future Israel,” not “geopolitical Israel.” One people. One covenant. One Messiah.

And as for Scofield — spare me the neutrality act. You should care who discipled your theology. Jesus never taught a secret rapture. He never handed Jerusalem back to Christ-rejecters. He never created a second, parallel covenant for unbelieving bloodlines. That’s not Gospel — that’s Zionism in disguise.

He is not a Jew who is one outwardly, but inwardly… by the Spirit. (Romans 2:28–29)
Not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel. (Romans 9:6)
Paul literally says: Peace be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. (Galatians 6:16)
That’s the Church. That’s us. That’s every believer grafted into the Root, not because of ancestry, but because of faith.

Jesus comes once — after the tribulation — with angels, fire, and trumpet. (Matthew 24:29–31)
Paul confirms: At the last trumpet… the dead in Christ will rise. (1 Corinthians 15:52)

There is no “pre-trib rapture” in Scripture. No two-stage coming. No deal with modern Israel. That’s Scofield’s kingdom — not Christ’s.

So if you’re still waiting on an unbelieving nation-state to fulfill prophecy, you’ve already missed the fulfillment: Christ.
If your theology makes room for a second covenant after the Cross, then you’re not just confused —
you are denying the finished work of Christ and standing in open rebellion against the Gospel itself.
You’re not waiting on God —
you’re blocking the door to the Kingdom He already opened.

 

[Doug]

You say the Church is not the Israel of God — that it’s “believing Israel.” That’s double-speak. You’ve just admitted my point without realizing it. Paul doesn’t say “believing Israel.” He says: There is neither Jew nor Greek… you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:28–29)

There is neither Jew or Greek in the body of Christ. There was another co-existing church made up of those who believed the preaching of Jesus and the twelve,,,,,,,,this is the Israel of God

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

There is neither Jew or Greek in the body of Christ. There was another co-existing church made up of those who believed the preaching of Jesus and the twelve,,,,,,,,this is the Israel of God

Now you’re inventing two churches to protect your theology? That’s not rightly dividing the word — that’s butchering the Gospel of Christ.

There’s no such thing in Scripture as a “Jewish church under Jesus and the Twelve” and a “Gentile church under Paul.” That’s pure Scofield fiction. The New Testament is crystal clear:

“There is one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all.”
— Ephesians 4:4–6

Not two churches. Not two peoples. Not two covenants.

Paul didn’t plant a new church — he revealed the mystery that Jews and Gentiles are made one in Christ (Ephesians 3:6). He didn’t say “they have their promises and we have ours.” He said:
“There is no distinction between Jew and Greek… for the same Lord is Lord of all.”
— Romans 10:12

You’re not defending the Gospel. You’re splitting it in half to keep your Zionist prophecy model alive.

The Gospel is one.
The people of God are one.
And anyone preaching two churches is not following Jesus — they’re following Scofield's blasphemy..