Premillennialism contradicts scripture (1 Corinthians 15:50-54) by having mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God when Jesus returns.

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul made it very clear that mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.

But, Premillennialism contradicts this by having "the righteous" with mortal flesh and blood bodies that are represented by "the sheep" inheriting the kingdom of God when Jesus returns.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world..........41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels..........46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Notice here that "the righteous" who are represented by "the sheep" inherit "eternal life" in the kingdom of God prepared since the creation of the world. Since they are inheriting eternal life, that means they must have immortal bodies since only those with immortal bodies could inherit eternal life. And, again, Paul clearly taught that only those with immortal bodies can inherit the kingdom of God.

Since the rest, represented by "the goats", are instead cast "into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" at that point, who are the mortals that would populate a future earthly millennial kingdom at that point and where are they? Nowhere. There would not be any mortals to populate an earthly kingdom at that point since all who inherit the kingdom will have immortal bodies and everyone else (the goats, which are unbelievers) are cast into the eternal fire.

So, I believe 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and Matthew 25:31-46 clearly support Amillennialism rather than Premillennialism since I see no reasonable way to reconcile these passages with Premillennialism. At least not the Premillennial view that most Premills have. I know there are some Premills, like the SDAs, who would agree with what I'm saying here except they would say that the righteous then go to heaven for a thousand years while the earth remains desolate during that time. There's a few who believe that immortals alone populate the earth during the thousand years as well, so I guess I'm not really talking about them, either.

 

[Marty fox]

Paul made it very clear that mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.

But, Premillennialism contradicts this by having "the righteous" with mortal flesh and blood bodies that are represented by "the sheep" inheriting the kingdom of God when Jesus returns.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world..........41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels..........46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Notice here that "the righteous" who are represented by "the sheep" inherit "eternal life" in the kingdom of God prepared since the creation of the world. Since they are inheriting eternal life, that means they must have immortal bodies since only those with immortal bodies could inherit eternal life. And, again, Paul clearly taught that only those with immortal bodies can inherit the kingdom of God.

Since the rest, represented by "the goats", are instead cast "into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" at that point, who are the mortals that would populate a future earthly millennial kingdom at that point? Nowhere. There would not be any mortals to populate an earthly kingdom at that point since all who inherit the kingdom will have immortal bodies and everyone else (the goats, which are unbelievers) are cast into the eternal fire.

So, I believe 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and Matthew 25:31-46 clearly support Amillennialism rather than Premillennialism since I see no reasonable way to reconcile these passages with Premillennialism. At least not the Premillennial view that most Premills have. I know there are some Premills, like the SDAs, who would agree with what I'm saying here except they would say that the righteous then go to heaven for a thousand years while the earth remains desolate during that time.

Yes amen, and if we read the whole part of 1 Corinthians 15:35-58 we will see that Paul explains that the rapture is for the changing of the splendour of our bodies so that we can enter heaven not to save us from a seven year tribulation on earth. Paul doesn’t even bring up a seven year tribulation while talking about the rapture in this chapter or in 1 Thessalonians 4

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes amen, and if we read the whole part of 1 Corinthians 15:35-58 we will see that Paul explains that the rapture is for the changing of the splendour of our bodies so that we can enter heaven not to save us from a seven year tribulation on earth. Paul doesn’t even bring up a seven year tribulation while talking about the rapture in this chapter or in 1 Thessalonians 4

Yes, I agree, except that I would say it's so that we can enter the eternal new heavens and new earth. But, what you said here makes me realize that what I'm saying in the OP refutes the idea of a pre-trib rapture as well since inheriting the kingdom of God is associated with the time when Jesus comes, which will be "after the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27). Certainly, Matthew 25:31-46 will occur after the tribulation of those days.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, I agree, except that I would say it's so that we can enter the eternal new heavens and new earth. But, what you said here makes me realize that what I'm saying in the OP refutes the idea of a pre-trib rapture as well since inheriting the kingdom of God is associated with the time when Jesus comes, which will be "after the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27). Certainly, Matthew 25:31-46 will occur after the tribulation of those days.

When (did or will) (The Tribulation Of Those Days Take Place)?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When (did or will) (The Tribulation Of Those Days Take Place)?

If you want to talk about that topic, then please create a new thread about it. I'd like to stay on topic in this thread for now instead of derailing it. If there aren't any more replies relating to the topic of this thread in the next 2 or 3 days, then we can discuss your question here if you want. But, it might make for a good topic in its own thread.

Do you have any thoughts on the original post in this thread? Since you are an Amill, I would think you would agree with what I said there?

 

[Truth7t7]

If you want to talk about that topic, then please create a new thread about it. I'd like to stay on topic in this thread for now instead of derailing it. If there aren't any more replies relating to the topic of this thread in the next 2 or 3 days, then we can discuss your question here if you want. But, it might make for a good topic in its own thread.

Do you have any thoughts on the original post in this thread? Since you are an Amill, I would think you would agree with what I said there?

I agree 100% with your original post, you know well where I stand

However I disagree with your response to Marty, the interpretation for "after the tribulation of those days" references the tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21 & Mark 13:19 in which you falsely believe took place in 70AD magically creating a 2,000 year gap between what you claim are two completely different claims of tribulation when they are one and the same

I won't discuss it further

Quote Post #3:
Jesus comes, which will be "after the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree 100% with your original post, you know well where I stand

That's what I figured, but that doesn't mean you can't still comment on it.

However I disagree with your response to Marty, the interpretation for "after the tribulation of those days" references the tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21 & Mark 13:19 in which you falsely believe took place in 70AD magically creating a 2,000 year gap

I won't discuss it further

Quote Post #3:
Jesus comes, which will be "after the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27)

I already knew you disagreed with that, but let's see how this thread goes first and then maybe we can talk about that later. Or maybe create a separate thread about that topic.

 

[Zao is life]

Paul made it very clear that mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.

So, I believe 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and Matthew 25:31-46 clearly support Amillennialism rather than Premillennialism since I see no reasonable way to reconcile these passages with Premillennialism. At least not the Premillennial view that most Premills have. I know there are some Premills, like the SDAs, who would agree with what I'm saying here except they would say that the righteous then go to heaven for a thousand years while the earth remains desolate during that time. There's a few who believe that immortals alone populate the earth during the thousand years as well, so I guess I'm not really talking about them, either.

I agree - and there other statements too that show not only the above, but also that the NHNE follows the return of Christ, for example:

1 Corinthians 15
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O hades, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

THE VICTORY THROUGH JESUS CHRIST:

"I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive [zao] to the ages of the ages, Amen; and have the keys of hades and of death."

(zao is not the same as eternal life [zoe]. zao is to be alive in the body. Being alive in the body for evermore (to the ages of the ages) = immortality).

"No more death" (Revelation 21:4), immortality, and victory over hades and death (1 Corinthians 15:54-57) go together.

Besides this, the promise of the tabernacle of God being with men and God wiping away all tears from their eyes is also given to those who came out from great tribulation:

Revelation 21
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 7
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto fountains of living waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Since most Premillennialists believe that the NHNE follows a thousand years after the return of Christ, they also need to have the above promises to those who came out from great tribulation being fulfilled only a thousand years after they came out from great tribulation. IMO that definitely requires inserting a meaning into Revelation 7:14-17 that the text certainly does not imply.

No more death is not "more death" - but the destruction of death and hades itself in the lake of fire (the second death) is not the same as the first death which is mentioned by Paul as having gained the victory over death and hades through the resurrection of the dead when the body puts on immortality.​

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree - and there other statements too that show not only the above, but also that the NHNE follows the return of Christ, for example:

1 Corinthians 15
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O hades, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

THE VICTORY THROUGH JESUS CHRIST:

"I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive [zao] to the ages of the ages, Amen; and have the keys of hades and of death."

(zao is not the same as eternal life [zoe]. zao is to be alive in the body. Being alive in the body for evermore (to the ages of the ages) = immortality).

"No more death" (Revelation 21:4), immortality, and victory over hades and death (1 Corinthians 15:54-57) go together.​

Yes, one thing that I have pointed out many times is that both 1 Corinthians 15:54 and Revelation 21:4 quote from Isaiah 25:8, which shows that those verses have a direct connection, which Premils who see mortals living on the earth during the thousand years miss.

Did you notice I made it clear that I was only talking about certain Premills in this thread and not all Premills? I did that out of respect for a view like you have and for the view that people like the SDAs have. I know that when I have referred to Premills in general in the past it made it seem like I was talking about literally all Premills and I know that bothered you, but that's never my intention to lump all Premills together like that as if all Premills believe exactly the same.

Besides this, the promise of the tabernacle of God being with men and God wiping away all tears from their eyes is also given to those who came out from great tribulation:

Revelation 21
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 7
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto fountains of living waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.​

Good catch! Yes, this shows that 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 21:4 and Revelation 7:17 all refer to the same event rather than to events that are separated by 1,000+ years.

Since most Premillennialists believe that the NHNE follows a thousand years after the return of Christ, they also need to have the above promises to those who came out from great tribulation being fulfilled only a thousand years after they came out from great tribulation. IMO that definitely requires inserting a meaning into Revelation 7:14-17 that the text certainly does not imply.​

I agree. Thanks for sharing your input.

 

[Zao is life]

Yes, one thing that I have pointed out many times is that both 1 Corinthians 15:54 and Revelation 21:4 quote from Isaiah 25:8, which shows that those verses have a direct connection, which Premils who see mortals living on the earth during the thousand years miss.

Agreed.

Did you notice I made it clear that I was only talking about certain Premills in this thread and not all Premills? I did that out of respect for a view like you have and for the view that people like the SDAs have. I know that when I have referred to Premills in general in the past it made it seem like I was talking about literally all Premills and I know that bothered you, but that's never my intention to lump all Premills together like that as if all Premills believe exactly the same.

I noticed, thank you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I noticed, thank you.

You're welcome. I respect your not wanting to be lumped in with all Premills because you obviously have some different views from most Premills. I don't like being lumped in with all Amills when the topic is regarding something that only partial preterist Amills believe, for example. I don't want to be associated with a doctrine that tries to claim that Jesus returned in 70 AD even though they do believe in His future reuturn as well. So, I understand how you feel about that.

 

[grafted branch]

There would not be any mortals to populate an earthly kingdom at that point since all who inherit the kingdom will have immortal bodies and everyone else (the goats, which are unbelievers) are cast into the eternal fire.

If I were a Premil I would simply use your hermeneutics and claim at the second coming the perishable/mortal is clothed with imperishable/immortal, they take the inheritance/kingdom, then the imperishable/immortal clothes are removed. I would claim clothes are something that can be put on and removed which is why that specific word is used.

Kinda like goats becoming sheep or tares becoming wheat and vice versa. Only in this case it’s mortal becoming immortal and vice versa.

 

[Davidpt]

Paul made it very clear that mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.

But, Premillennialism contradicts this by having "the righteous" with mortal flesh and blood bodies that are represented by "the sheep" inheriting the kingdom of God when Jesus returns.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world..........41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels..........46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Notice here that "the righteous" who are represented by "the sheep" inherit "eternal life" in the kingdom of God prepared since the creation of the world. Since they are inheriting eternal life, that means they must have immortal bodies since only those with immortal bodies could inherit eternal life. And, again, Paul clearly taught that only those with immortal bodies can inherit the kingdom of God.

Since the rest, represented by "the goats", are instead cast "into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" at that point, who are the mortals that would populate a future earthly millennial kingdom at that point and where are they? Nowhere. There would not be any mortals to populate an earthly kingdom at that point since all who inherit the kingdom will have immortal bodies and everyone else (the goats, which are unbelievers) are cast into the eternal fire.

So, I believe 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and Matthew 25:31-46 clearly support Amillennialism rather than Premillennialism since I see no reasonable way to reconcile these passages with Premillennialism. At least not the Premillennial view that most Premills have. I know there are some Premills, like the SDAs, who would agree with what I'm saying here except they would say that the righteous then go to heaven for a thousand years while the earth remains desolate during that time. There's a few who believe that immortals alone populate the earth during the thousand years as well, so I guess I'm not really talking about them, either.

Nothing like an OP using a straw man as an argument. As if Premils are so stupid to think to inherit the kingdom of God is temporary instead of forever once inheriting it. After all, you are arguing that Premils have flesh and blood mortals inheriting the kingdom of God during the millennium. Ummm---since when can mortals live forever? After all, to inherit the kingdom of God when Christ returns, means to inherit it forever, does it not?

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them---does that sound like they inherited the kingdom of God during the millennium? Since when can one inherit the kingdom of God when He returns, then only inherit it temporarily, a thousand years in this case, then lose inheritance altogether?

Notice something below. This is when one is inheriting the kingdom of God when He returns.

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


Does Jesus ever say that to the goats? No. And guess what that means, assuming Premil is true? It means there won't be any goats during the millennium. Obviously, none of the sheep meant are meaning anyone in Revelation 20:9. Nor are they meaning any of the goats in Matthew 25 since they inherit zero. Not to mention, they won't even be present during the millennium to begin with.

Once again, the OP misrepresents Premil in general since there is no such thing as inheriting the kingdom when Christ returns, Matthew 25:34, then some of these losing that inheritance after the millennium, Revelation 20:9. It's a bizarre argument even if Premil isn't true, for anyone to claim a view has someone inheriting the kingdom of God at the beginning of the millennium, then losing that inheritance at the end of it. If you want to debunk Premil, assuming it can be debunked, do it with a legit argument. Once again, per Premil no flesh and blood mortals are inheriting the kingdom of God during the millennium.

That doesn't mean there won't be mortals during the millennium. They just won't be anyone that has inherited the the kingdom of God when Christ returns. Nor will they be any of the goats. Zechariah 14:16-19 already tells us who they are. They are those remaining of the nations which came against Jerusalem and never encountered the fate of those in Zechariah 14:12.

Zechariah 14:16 ¶And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.


These are neither the sheep nor goats in Matthew 25, yet they have to be somebody. It's not like they won't exist after verse 12 is poured out upon those that came against Jerusalem. that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem--guess what that means? It means these remain alive after verse 12 has been poured out on all the others that came against Jerusalem. What could---every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem--possibly mean if not that, that these are spared the fate of verse 12? Clearly, verse 12 has not been fulfilled yet, in any sense. Surely you at least know that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nothing like an OP using a strawman as an argument.

Nope. I was addressing what most Premills believe, whether they acknowledge it or not.

As if Premils are so stupid to think to inherit the kingdom of God is temporary instead of forever once inheriting it.

You missed the point. Talk about strawman arguments. You make them all the time and this is just the latest one. Did you even read my post? It isn't in regards to the duration of God's kingdom, it's in regards to the fact that those who inherit it have immortal bodies because mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (Matt 25:34).

After all, you are arguing that Premils have flesh and blood mortals inheriting the kingdom of God during the millennium.

Obviously. Is that not the case for you? If not, then what is your problem? I made sure to indicate at the end of my post that what I was saying did not apply to all Premills. There are certainly a good number of Premils who believe that mortal flesh and blood will inherit the kingdom described in Matthew 25:34, which should obviously be seen as the kingdom of God.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them---does that sound like they inherited the kingdom of God during the millennium?

LOL. And here's another strawman argument. So ironic for you to accuse me of making one when the reality is that you just can't understand what you read. When did I say anything about them inheriting the kingdom of God? Nowhere. But, what about the other mortals who are not killed at at that point?

Since when can one inherit the kingdom of God when He returns, then only inherit it temporarily, a thousand years in this case, then lose inheritance altogether?

Right. You and I know that, but it seems some Premills don't understand that or forget that because they have mortals inheriting the kingdom of God in Matthew 25:34. It's that belief that I'm addressing in this thread.

Notice something below. This is when one is inheriting the kingdom of God when He returns.

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Yes, exactly. And they all have immortal bodies, right?

Does Jesus ever say that to the goats? No.

Of course not. So, who are the mortals that you think are populating the earth at that point? And why would they not be considered to be in the kingdom of God? Won't the kingdom of God be in the entire earth at that point, according to your understanding?

And guess what that means, assuming Premil is true? It means there won't be any goats during the millennium.

Obviously.

Obviously, none of the sheep meant are meaning anyone in Revelation 20:9. Nor are they meaning any of the goats in Matthew 25 since they inherit zero. Not to mention, they won't even be present during the millennium to begin with.

Exactly. So, who are they then?

Once again, the OP misrepresents Premil in general since there is no such thing as inheriting the kingdom when Christ returns, Matthew 25:34, then some of these losing that inheritance after the millennium, Revelation 20:9. It's a bizarre argument even if Premil isn't true, for anyone to claim a view has someone inheriting the kingdom of God at the beginning of the millennium, then losing that inheritance at the end of it.

You are missing the point. Some Premills would try to argue that the kingdom in Matthew 25:34 is not the same kingdom Paul mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:50. That's the real problem that I'm addressing. Sorry you didn't already catch that somehow even though I repeatedly mentioned both passages and how I believe most Premills don't relate them directly together. Certainly, no pre-tribs do because they have 1 Corinthians 15:50 as being fulfilled before the tribulation and well before Matthew 25:31-46 happens. And, pre-tribs are all Premills, of course.

If you want to debunk Premil, assuming it can be debunked, do it with a legit argument.

LOL. That's exactly what I'm doing in relation to how many Premills understand 1 Corinthians 15:50 and Matthew 25:31-46.

Once again, per Premil no flesh and blood mortals are inheriting the kingdom of God during the millennium.

Per YOUR understanding of Premil. Did I say that my post only applied to your understanding? Not at all. You don't respresent all Premills. But, the thing I believe you need to answer is where the mortals who you believe will pouplate the earth come from. Who are they exactly? They can't be the sheep or the goats. Where does Jesus mention any other people being there?

That doesn't mean there won't be mortals during the millennium.

Here we go. There it is. But, that is not what I was meaning to address in this thread particularly. But, we can still talk about that. Who are those people exactly? How do they survive Christ's return but those who are described as the goats do not?

They just won't be anyone that has inherited the the kingdom of God when Christ returns.

So, what is your understanding of the kingdom of God at that point? What part of the earth do you think it will cover?

Nor will they be any of the goats. Zechariah 14:16-19 already tells us who they are. They are those remaining of the nations which came against Jerusalem and never encountered the fate of those in Zechariah 14:12.

Your whole doctrine hinges on one highly debatable passage (Zechariah 14). That's not a firm foundation for your doctrine to be on. There are many passages which do not allow for any mortal survivors of Christ's return and you misinterpret them all in favor of your understanding of Zechariah 14. And, I don't even know how you interpret it, overall. I know you don't believe it's talking about literal animal sacrifices and things like that. So, you think that's all spiritual in some way. Why then do you take the rest of it literally in a physical sense?

Can you give an outline of how you understand Zechariah 14? What scriptures do you believe support your understanding of it? Why are there so many scriptures which do not give any indication at all of any mortal survivors of His return (Matthew 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Revelation 19:17-18) if that was going to happen? Do you think that Jesus and the NT authors just didn't understand Zechariah 14 properly? No, I'm sure you don't believe that, but why do you suppose they never taught anything that lines up with what we see described in Zechariah 14? Or, if you believe they did, then where?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If I were a Premil I would simply use your hermeneutics and claim at the second coming the perishable/mortal is clothed with imperishable/immortal, they take the inheritance/kingdom, then the imperishable/immortal clothes are removed. I would claim clothes are something that can be put on and removed which is why that specific word is used.

Well, that's quite a ridiculous argument that no one can take seriously. But, that isn't my hermeneutics. You have made it abundantly clear many times that you do not understand what I believe, so stop trying to talk for me.

Kinda like goats becoming sheep or tares becoming wheat and vice versa. Only in this case it’s mortal becoming immortal and vice versa.

Nonsense. Scripture obviously never teaches such a thing.

We shouldn't have to talk about the parable of the wheat and tares again. We established that it should be looked at from God's perspective, right? But, in the real time perspective, all children of the kingdom are formerly children of the devil, which simply refers to lost sinners (1 John 3:8-10). But, I'm not going to get into that argument all over again.

 

[Zao is life]

Nothing like an OP using a straw man as an argument. As if Premils are so stupid to think to inherit the kingdom of God is temporary instead of forever once inheriting it. After all, you are arguing that Premils have flesh and blood mortals inheriting the kingdom of God during the millennium. Ummm---since when can mortals live forever? After all, to inherit the kingdom of God when Christ returns, means to inherit it forever, does it not?

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them---does that sound like they inherited the kingdom of God during the millennium? Since when can one inherit the kingdom of God when He returns, then only inherit it temporarily, a thousand years in this case, then lose inheritance altogether?

Notice something below. This is when one is inheriting the kingdom of God when He returns.

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


Does Jesus ever say that to the goats? No. And guess what that means, assuming Premil is true? It means there won't be any goats during the millennium. Obviously, none of the sheep meant are meaning anyone in Revelation 20:9. Nor are they meaning any of the goats in Matthew 25 since they inherit zero. Not to mention, they won't even be present during the millennium to begin with.

Once again, the OP misrepresents Premil in general since there is no such thing as inheriting the kingdom when Christ returns, Matthew 25:34, then some of these losing that inheritance after the millennium, Revelation 20:9. It's a bizarre argument even if Premil isn't true, for anyone to claim a view has someone inheriting the kingdom of God at the beginning of the millennium, then losing that inheritance at the end of it. If you want to debunk Premil, assuming it can be debunked, do it with a legit argument. Once again, per Premil no flesh and blood mortals are inheriting the kingdom of God during the millennium.

That doesn't mean there won't be mortals during the millennium. They just won't be anyone that has inherited the the kingdom of God when Christ returns. Nor will they be any of the goats. Zechariah 14:16-19 already tells us who they are. They are those remaining of the nations which came against Jerusalem and never encountered the fate of those in Zechariah 14:12.

Zechariah 14:16 ¶And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.


These are neither the sheep nor goats in Matthew 25, yet they have to be somebody. It's not like they won't exist after verse 12 is poured out upon those that came against Jerusalem. that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem--guess what that means? It means these remain alive after verse 12 has been poured out on all the others that came against Jerusalem. What could---every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem--possibly mean if not that, that these are spared the fate of verse 12? Clearly, verse 12 has not been fulfilled yet, in any sense. Surely you at least know that.

"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left [yathar] of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles." (Zechariah 14:16).

H3498 yathar
a primitive root; to jut over or exceed; by implication, to excel; (intransitively) to remain or be left; causatively, to leave, cause to abound, preserve:--excel, leave (a remnant), left behind, too much, make plenteous, preserve, (be, let) remain(-der, -ing, - nant), reserve, residue, rest.

The word [yathar] is translated as "thou shalt not excel" in Genesis 49:4.

So IMO the word yathar could be referring to the saved remnant from among the nations who will be resurrected from the dead when the Lord returns,

especially because after saying "This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles" (Zechariah 14:19), the very next verse says,

In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar";

and the chapter closes with,

"Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts."

So my question is: Should we really assume that "those who are left" of all the nations that came against Jerusalem are mortals who are left?

Or could they be these:

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:17)?

There is also the fact that the Revelation calls New Jerusalem "the holy city" three times: Revelation 21:2; Revelation 21:10; and Revelation 22:19. The other cities mentioned in the Revelation are:

The other three "cities" mentioned in the Revelation are:-

1. "Babylon the Great".
2. The city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt".
3. The cities of the nations which fell when the 7th bowl of wrath was poured out.

So if Revelation 11:2 tells us that the Gentiles will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months, which city is it talking about?

Don't we just end up speculating when we attempt to make sense of these scriptures mentioning attacks on Jerusalem and attacks on the holy city?

IMO it's not possible for mortals to exist on the regenerated earth and in the days of the NHNE (which as far as I know, you agree with me commences at the same time as the first thousand years of the ages of the ages).

So to me the question you and I should be asking, is:

Is it possible for Christ to blot out the names of immortals from the book of life following the resurrection, and for God to destroy the souls and bodies of created human beings in the lake of fire, if at the close of the thousand years immortals believe Satan's deception (which began with "you will NOT surely die") and follow his rebellion?

And the other question would be, does immortality for CREATED human beings mean that it's impossible for God to destroy both soul and body (along with hades and death) in the lake of fire, which is the SECOND death?

And that brings me back to the question of why it was possible for Adam to die - the first death - when he did what is mentioned in Revelation 20 as being done at the close of the thousand years, i.e believed the deceptive lie of Satan and sinned as a result? (There was no death in Eden before Adam died, and the tree of life and the book of life IMO are just different metaphors for the Word of God IN WHOM our eternal life [zoe] exists).​

 

[grafted branch]

Well, that's quite a ridiculous argument that no one can take seriously.

What’s so ridiculous about that argument? Is it that I used a presupposition that the millennium has to still be future to force an interpretation that agrees with that idea, or is it that I copied your method of interpretation that allows for vice versa swapping?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That doesn't mean there won't be mortals during the millennium. They just won't be anyone that has inherited the the kingdom of God when Christ returns. Nor will they be any of the goats. Zechariah 14:16-19 already tells us who they are. They are those remaining of the nations which came against Jerusalem and never encountered the fate of those in Zechariah 14:12.

Zechariah 14:16 ¶And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.


These are neither the sheep nor goats in Matthew 25, yet they have to be somebody. It's not like they won't exist after verse 12 is poured out upon those that came against Jerusalem. that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem--guess what that means? It means these remain alive after verse 12 has been poured out on all the others that came against Jerusalem. What could---every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem--possibly mean if not that, that these are spared the fate of verse 12? Clearly, verse 12 has not been fulfilled yet, in any sense. Surely you at least know that.

So, what do these supposed mortal survivors of Christ's return who came against Jerusalem but somehow survived (why?), do during the supposed future thousand years?

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

So, many of these mortals will be going to Jerusalem and worshiping "the King, the Lord of hosts", right? And any who don't get punished by not getting any rain.

So, you don't think that the mortals who do go to Jerusalem to worship the Lord are in the kingdom of God? If so, how can that be? How can anyone who worships God not be in His kingdom?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What’s so ridiculous about that argument?

Everything.

Is it that I used a presupposition that the millennium has to still be future to force an interpretation that agrees with that idea, or is it that I copied your method of interpretation that allows for vice versa swapping?

You didn't copy my method of interpretation. You do NOT understand what I believe. Trust me, I know. I know when my view is being misrepresented. Don't try to talk for me. I have explained to you that from God's perspective of the parable of the wheat and tares He can see who will end up as wheat and who will end up as tares at the end of the age, so that's the perpective in which we should look at that parable. From that perspective, I do NOT have tares turning into wheat. And, my view does NOT allow for someone to go back and forth from having an immortal body to a mortal body and then back to an immortal body and so on. That is NOT what I believe at all. So, stop misrepresenting what I believe.

You're a preterist. Why do you even care about the topic of this thread, anyway, when it has nothing to do with what you believe? It seems that you're just here to cause trouble and derail the thread.

 

[grafted branch]

You didn't copy my method of interpretation. You do NOT understand what I believe.

You claim that often but all I can tell you is that is how I perceive it. So maybe try doing a better job of presenting your method of interpretation, like showing why the vice versa swapping only applies to certain parables. I mean, what are the rules you use when making a vice versa swap and why don’t these rules apply to mortal/immortal conditions?

I know when my view is being misrepresented. Don't try to talk for me.

I’m not talking for you but do you want me to quote some of your previous posts where you claim a tares can become wheat and wheat can become tares? That’s what I’m talking about with your vice versa swapping interpretations.

You're a preterist. Why do you even care about the topic of this thread, anyway, when it has nothing to do with what you believe? It seems that you're just here to cause trouble and derail the thread.

I’m just looking at how the hermeneutics you use to prove a point in one argument can be used against you in another argument. Clearly you don’t seem to like it when I point it out.