My agnostic friend says: "I don't need it." - How would you respond?

[St. SteVen]

Remember that the Elect will not be tempted to follow a false Christ regardless of signs.

I don't think we can even claim that "the Elect will not be tempted".
There is an "if possible" clause.

Matthew 24:24 NIV
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

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[Carl Emerson]

St. SteVen said:
Remember, plenty of other ways to be deceived.

Yes, that supports my point that even the Elect can be deceived in some regard. We all are.
And actually what triggered this exchange was your claim on the other topic:
that "The very elect can not be deceived." [sic] Quoted below.

Carl Emerson said:
Two different definitions of Church...
The very elect can not be deceived.
The visible church is in disarray like the disciples were before the resurrection.
This did not inhibit His perfect plan.

[

I stand by my statement. Scripture says clearly that when faced with extreme deception they are not deceived.

 

[St. SteVen]

I stand by my statement. Scripture says clearly that when faced with extreme deception they are not deceived.

Stand by your statement?
With noted extreme conditions you mean?
Plenty of other ways to be deceived. (in less extreme ways)

You refuse to budge an inch on this.
Your original statement, which I am challenging:

Carl Emerson said:
The very elect can not be deceived. [sic]

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[St. SteVen]

I stand by my statement. Scripture says clearly that when faced with extreme deception they are not deceived.

Actually, the scripture doesn't even give you that much elbow room.
The scripture refers to a VERY specific SINGULAR deception that is VERY tempting.

Matthew 24:24 NIV
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

I stand by my statement. Scripture says clearly that when faced with extreme deception they are not deceived.

Ironically you seem to have been deceived concerning the deception of the Elect.
You have broad-brushed the entire issue.

You'll need a stronger argument to support that.

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[Carl Emerson]

Ironically you seem to have been deceived concerning the deception of the Elect.
You have broad-brushed the entire issue.

You'll need a stronger argument to support that.

[

I don't bother with arguments - just present Scripture with reason and passion.

 

[St. SteVen]

I don't bother with arguments - just present Scripture with reason and passion.

In that regard, you have failed on this point. IMO
"The very elect can not be deceived." [sic]

Heavy on passion, light on reason.

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[Carl Emerson]

In that regard, you have failed on this point. IMO
"The very elect can not be deceived." [sic]

Heavy on passion, light on reason.

[

John 10 confirms the Elect follow His voice and do not heed the voice of strangers.

A false prophet they will not follow, even if signs and wonders are evident...

 

[JustMe]

I am moving towards @Carl Emerson Mr. Emerson's view, in what he posted regarding the Elect of God.

@St. SteVen .. what is your real point concerning the Elect anyway? Where are going with it? What seems to bother you about them? In post #245, you said: "Everyone is deceived in some aspect." You know the Elect are the only genuine believers who will not sway their faith to the extent of moving away from God for salvation.

Again, the elect, by definition, cannot be swayed or deceived to the extent of losing their salvation. This view is supported by passages that emphasize the protection and perseverance of the elect:

Ephesians 1: "God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him."
1 Peter 1: "The chosen are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
Jude 1: "The chosen are beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ."

The elect will persevere in their faith. Jesus also emphasizes this in John 10–5, where He says, "The sheep follow him because they know his voice. A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers." This indicates that the elect will recognize and follow the true Shepherd, and not be misled by false prophets or false Christs.

Now while the elect cannot be deceived to the point of losing their salvation, they can still be temporarily misled or deceived in lesser matters. This is based on the phrase "if it were possible" in Matthew 24, which states, "For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect." The use of "if possible" implies that the deception is so intense that it could potentially deceive the elect, but God will not allow it to happen.

 

[St. SteVen]

John 10 confirms the Elect follow His voice and do not heed the voice of strangers.

A false prophet they will not follow, even if signs and wonders are evident...

Please provide specific biblical support. Thanks.

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[Lambano]

Context.

That quote, "For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect" was pulled out of the Olivet discourse. This starts with "Jesus said to them: 'Watch out that no one deceives you.'" (verse 5), has "'So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time'" in the middle (verse 23), and ends with "What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’” in verse 37.

Context.

If you think you can't be deceived because you're one of God's chosen people (you know - like the Jews), you won't be on your guard in the hour the thief comes. And you're missing the whole point of what Jesus is trying to say.

 

[St. SteVen]

Now while the elect cannot be deceived to the point of losing their salvation, they can still be temporarily misled or deceived in lesser matters.

That is my point. @Carl Emerson disagrees.

FYI @Carl Emerson and I have a long history.
I have even spoken with him on the phone years ago.
He used to rely on my people skills and resources to put teams together for ministry ideas.
But more recently we have parted ways doctrinally. Which is a larger issue for he than I.

[

 

[JustMe]

Context.

That quote, "For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect" was pulled out of the Olivet discourse. This starts with "Jesus said to them: 'Watch out that no one deceives you.'" (verse 5), has "'So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time'" in the middle (verse 23), and ends with "What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’” in verse 37.

Context.

If you think you can't be deceived because you're one of God's chosen people (you know - like the Jews), you won't be on your guard in the hour the thief comes. And you're missing the whole point of what Jesus is trying to say.

That is not the proper context, and therefore what followed was a false argument.

Clarification on the definition of 'deceived' now might be necessary.

 

[St. SteVen]

The use of "if possible" implies that the deception is so intense that it could potentially deceive the elect, but God will not allow it to happen.

I agree. @Carl Emerson claims that the Elect cannot even be tempted by deception. (of any kind)

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[Lambano]

That is not the proper context, and therefore what followed was a false argument.

I think we're operating out of different contexts ourselves. Including the definition of what it means to be part of God's people, i.e. "the Elect".

 

[Lambano]

I agree. @Carl Emerson claims that the Elect cannot even be tempted by deception. (of any kind)

Some will see it in the Reformed context of the Perseverance of the Saints, the P on the TULIP. The Elect will persevere because God will make them persevere.

But I can't buy into the Reformed concept of election.

 

[JustMe]

I agree. @Carl Emerson claims that the Elect cannot even be tempted by deception. (of any kind)

[

Temptation is always human for today. The act of being deceived goes way beyond temptation, and the elect are not deceived as in derailed from their faith permanently. Getting confused, and caught into strong evil forces are definitely possible for the elect.

Again, the definition of deception and versus temptation needs to be clearly understood in this subject, with good examples..

We all have a tendency, and its common in these subjects to use words and verbs assuming all in play know their meanings. And then there are those who deliberately circle the wagons aimlessly, accusing the other of being somewhat ignorant....

 

[JustMe]

I think we're operating out of different contexts ourselves. Including the definition of what it means to be part of God's people, i.e. "the Elect".

Agreed..

 

[JustMe]

Agreed..

@Lambano ..digressing a bit for your understanding and for why I reacted so abruptly, the way I did in my post to you...

I really reacted to not just the lack of understanding amongst us of the critical definitions for this subject of the elect, it was when you suddenly dropped the bomb in your last 'context' that is not the subject here at all. And equating the chosen one as with the Jews, as the, or type of elect, was a little too much for me to let slip by. And then for you to add on its tail 'the thief in the night' that was really out there for me....just wanted to tell you where my head was...

 

[Lambano]

I agree. @Carl Emerson claims that the Elect cannot even be tempted by deception. (of any kind)

[

I don't think that's what's being claimed, though we should let Carl speak for himself.

Saint Steven, something you wrote recently made me look up "Deconstruction", and one of the key points of Deconstruction is how language affects beliefs. The original biblical concept of Election comes from Deuteronomy 7:6: "For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession". You'll see the term getting "cut off" from God's people in the Old Testament (and Paul uses it in Romans 9-11), and you'll see how serious this could be.

Somewhere around the Reformation, "Election" got redefined to mean "Chosen for Eternal Life". (See how language and beliefs interact?) From that standpoint, the Elect (almost by definition) cannot be deceived to the point that they lose their salvation. As somebody (it was you, actually) once said, how can Man do anything to thwart what only God can provide? It doesn't mean they can't get taken by the three-card monte dealer in the church parking lot, or deceived into voting poorly in presidential elections, but it does mean they cannot be deceived out of their salvation.