Do you believe the lie?

[Spiritual Israelite]

You continue to include in your interpretation that "a man abide not in me" actually means, "a man stops abiding in me", and use that instead of the actual statement given.

I have too much love for the truth to do that. I must remain with "if a man not abide in me", which does not address whether or not such a man previously did.

Given the fact that this point is not specifically addressed by this passage, it is then an ambiguous passage, that is, could be interpretted in more than one way, or applied in more than one way. I think we are interpretting the passage the same, and are applying it differently.

That is, I apply it to those who never did, while you apply it to those who do, and may cease to do so.

Parallel passages and contextually relevant passages often supply the needed information by which we can determine which is actually meant.

I'm aware of a number of passages that would be false on their face if one who is regenerated ceases to be so, ceasing to remain in Christ. And again, I'm constrained by the truth, I cannot simply prefer one interpretation over another, I require the Scriptures to show the meaning,

And in every case, I find harmony throughout, as the regenerate are never lost, but remain with Christ.

Much love!

I know I said we could just agree to disagree on this, but I think one thing that needs to be discussed that we didn't touch on before is what the word "abide" means. So, how do you define the word "abide"? It means to remain. That's why in some translations it uses the word "remain" instead of "abide" and it has Jesus talking about the need to remain in Him. But, how can someone remain in Christ if they are not in Christ in the first place?

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Would you agree that in verse 5, Jesus is referring back to verse 2 where He said "and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit"? If so, why would you not also think that in verse 6 He is referring back to verse 2 where He said "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away"?

I don't think you are recognizing that, in verses 5 and 6, Jesus reiterated and expanded on what He said in verses 1 to 4. I color coded the verses to show that. Match up the colors in verses 5-6 to the same colors in verses 1-4 and you should see that.

 

[marks]

I know I said we could just agree to disagree on this, but I think one thing that needs to be discussed that we didn't touch on before is what the word "abide" means. So, how do you define the word "abide"? It means to remain. That's why in some translations it uses the word "remain" instead of "abide" and it has Jesus talking about the need to remain in Him. But, how can someone remain in Christ if they are not in Christ in the first place?

It's not about what "abide" means, it's what "meno" means.

You can think of it as saying, I stay there. I live there. I abide there. I remain there. And that's the rub. When you negate it, "I don't remain there", you immediately apply the connotation, "though I once did". But that's not included in "meno" in a negated context.

It's just like saying, I don't abide in that house, I abide in this house. I've always abode in this house. I never did abide in that house.

Much love!

 

[marks]

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

The redded parts . . . the first is a branch that abides in Christ, the second is a man who does not abide in Christ, these are different, not the same. And to be "carried away by the Father" does not seem to me to be equal to "he is cast forth as a branch".

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's not about what "abide" means, it's what "meno" means.

Yes, that's ultimately what we need to determine, but you trust that the KJV translation of John 15 is accurate, right? It uses the word "abide". That means to remain.

 

[marks]

Yes, that's ultimately what we need to determine, but you trust that the KJV translation of John 15 is accurate, right? It uses the word "abide". That means to remain.

I think the part we are concerned with is "if a man not abide in me".

This would be put the same way using the word "remain", "I remain in this house, I don't remain in that house." This is how meno is used in this context.

Regarding translations, I look at several, also some of the manuscripts. I like the King James best. But I don't stop there.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The redded parts . . . the first is a branch that abides in Christ, the second is a man who does not abide in Christ, these are different, not the same. And to be "carried away by the Father" does not seem to me to be equal to "he is cast forth as a branch".

Much love!

So, you apparently disagree with me that in verses 5 and 6 Jesus reiterated and expanded on what He had said in verses 1-4? I think He clearly did. Can you please address that?

Do you think when He said "for without me ye can do nothing" in verse 5 that He was reiterating or expanding on when He previously said in verse 4, which was "As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me"?

Do you think when He said "He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit" in verse 5, He was reiterating or expanding on what He had previously said in verse 2, which was "and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit"?

If your answer is yes to those two questions, then I don't know why you would not recognize that when He said in verse 6: "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.", that He was referring back to what He said in verse 2, which was: "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away".

 

[marks]

So, you apparently disagree with me that in verses 5 and 6 Jesus reiterated and expanded on what He had said in verses 1-4? I think He clearly did. Can you please address that?

Do you think when He said "for without me ye can do nothing" in verse 5 that He was reiterating or expanding on when He previously said in verse 4, which was "As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me"?

Do you think when He said "He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit" in verse 5, He was reiterating or expanding on what He had previously said in verse 2, which was "and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit"?

If your answer is yes to those two questions, then I don't know why you would not recognize that when He said in verse 6: "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.", that He was referring back to what He said in verse 2, which was: "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away".

I've already answered this.

^ The redded parts . . . the first is a branch that abides in Christ, the second is a man who does not abide in Christ, these are different, not the same. And to be "carried away by the Father" does not seem to me to be equal to "he is cast forth as a branch".

I'm not seeing how this makes sense that being carried off by the Father is being cast out to be gathered and burned.

What does it mean to you, "abide in Christ"? Do you see that related to being baptized into Christ? Do you see it to mean that we are walking in the Spirit? Does it mean to have continuous faith? How do you define this for me?

And you point to Scriptures that tells us what this term means exactly?

Much love!

 

[marks]

then I don't know why you would not recognize that when He said in verse 6

And there remains in an abiding way the matter that if the one who is "In Christ", if the regenerate should become unregenerate, and not be found among the redeemed in the age to come, this creates a serious conflict with a number of very plainly stated passages, some of which I've posted in this thread.

There is not the same kind of direct statement as though the saved may again be lost in John 15, as there is in these other passages, that the saved remain saved.

To me this is very compelling.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I've already answered this.

^ The redded parts . . . the first is a branch that abides in Christ, the second is a man who does not abide in Christ, these are different, not the same. And to be "carried away by the Father" does not seem to me to be equal to "he is cast forth as a branch".

I'm not seeing how this makes sense that being carried off by the Father is being cast out to be gathered and burned.

Where does it say they are carried away by the Father? This is why we should look at other translations. Other translations say that He cuts those branches off. And why wouldn't they be cut off if they are not producing fruit? It makes sense to me that they would need to be cut off if they are not obeying and remaining in Christ.

Also, I see no reason to think He was talking about something else entirely than He was talking about in verse 2 when He said in verse 6: "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.". This means what He was saying in verse 2 is that they would be taken away or cut off and then cast into the fire.

What does it mean to you, "abide in Christ"?

I think I've made that clear. It means to remain in Christ by way of continuing to be faithful to Him. We are required to place our faith in Christ in the first place in order to be saved, but scripture says we need to keep our faith in Him until the end of our lives (Hebrews 3:14).

Do you see that related to being baptized into Christ? Do you see it to mean that we are walking in the Spirit? Does it mean to have continuous faith?

Yes, continuous faith. The way we are in Christ in the first place is because of putting our faith in Him.

You didn't answer these questions that I asked, so could you please answer them?

Do you think when He said "for without me ye can do nothing" in verse 5 that He was reiterating or expanding on when He previously said in verse 4, which was "As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me"?

Do you think when He said "He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit" in verse 5, He was reiterating or expanding on what He had previously said in verse 2, which was "and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit"?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And there remains in an abiding way the matter that if the one who is "In Christ", if the regenerate should become unregenerate, and not be found among the redeemed in the age to come, this creates a serious conflict with a number of very plainly stated passages, some of which I've posted in this thread.

There is not the same kind of direct statement as though the saved may again be lost in John 15, as there is in these other passages, that the saved remain saved.

To me this is very compelling.

Much love!

I disagree with you about this. I think there are several other passages in scripture which show that someone who is saved can lose their faith and then they are not saved anymore. That includes Hebrews 3:12-14, Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:26-27 and Romans 11:20-22.

I don't know what passages you are talking about exactly, but I would imagine they relate to how God won't leave or forsake us, but that does not mean we can't leave or forsake Him.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think the part we are concerned with is "if a man not abide in me".

This would be put the same way using the word "remain", "I remain in this house, I don't remain in that house." This is how meno is used in this context.

Why are you referring to "this house" and "that house" there as if you are talking about two different houses? That's not comparable to what Jesus said. He talked about someone abiding in Him or not abiding in Him. Your analogy would suggest that He talked about someone abiding in Him, but not abiding in someone else. But, that's not what He said.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Yes, you seem to be a good example of that.

I believe this comment was in response to my correction of Zao's contradiction, you might recall he said one thing and then followed it with “nevertheless.” So, it seems your comment may lack context, whereas mine still directly applies.

Zao’s initial point in his post was clearly wrong, and instead of acknowledging it, he took offense. I’ve seen this happen many times when people are confronted with flaws in their theology.

I think you would agree you were acting similar with Jane...though nowhere as extreme as Zao.

 

[marks]

I disagree with you about this. I think there are several other passages in scripture which show that someone who is saved can lose their faith and then they are not saved anymore. That includes Hebrews 3:12-14, Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:26-27 and Romans 11:20-22.

I don't know what passages you are talking about exactly, but I would imagine they relate to how God won't leave or forsake us, but that does not mean we can't leave or forsake Him.

There remains the requirement that all these passages reconcile with and harmonize with all those others.

You say you can forsake Him. He has promised, I will never leave you nor forsake you. What would that look like, that you might forsake God, though God will not forsake you?

I've posted several passages in this thread, 1 John 3:1-3, Colossians 3:1-3, Philippians 3, last two verses. Each of these show that those who are raised with Christ, citizens of heaven, children of God . . . now . . . will be with Him then. Each contain a qualification to be met, each essentially the same, reconciled and regenerate, no other qualifications.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Hebrews 3:12-14

It would be helpful to me if you would quote the passage, and bold or otherwise show the part you are referring to.

Hebrews 3:12-13 KJV
12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13) But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

He is writing to his fellow Hebrews, who have worshiped God according to the Law, and now need to come to Him in the new way, in spirit and in truth, that is, actually reconciled to God, and recreated in spirit so we can commune directly with Him.

Some have come to faith in Jesus, and let go of the Levitical practices. Others don't believe, that is, they never graduate from the Law to Christ.

Becoming hardened through the deceiptfulness of sin.

John 3:19-21 KJV
19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20) For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21) But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Much love!

 

[Hiddenthings]

God gave life to Jesus's humanity. The Word was God and the Word became flesh (John 1). Jesus is both God and man at the same time. You are deceived. Meanwhile, I look forward to the blessed hope, the appearing of my Great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13).

The moment you say “God gave,” you've already surrendered your foundation. Let me give you an example, something Zao posted after misrepresenting 1 Timothy 6:16:

"For as the Father has life in Himself, so He (God) has granted the Son also to have life in Himself." — John 5:26

Do you see how this fully supports 1 Timothy 6:13 that God (singular) is the true giver of life?

Throughout Scripture, we see that God is greater than Christ (John 14:28), and that Jesus remains subordinate to the Father, though he reveals Him perfectly. Jesus was sent by God (via His HS Power), lived a sinless life, and now serves as the mediator between God and mankind (1 Timothy 2:5; John 17:3).

This understanding is supported by many passages:

• Jesus' dependence on the Father (John 5:26–30)
• His prayers of submission (Luke 22:42)
• God's role in raising him from the dead (Romans 4:24)
• His future subjection to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24–28)
• And the distinction between God and Jesus in divine purpose (Ephesians 1:3,17; Revelation 1:1)

In short, Jesus is God’s Son, not God Himself, fully obedient, appointed, and glorified by the Father, who alone is the supreme source of life (Hosea 11:9; James 1:13; Titus 1:2; Hebrews 4:15).

 

[marks]

Where does it say they are carried away by the Father?

John 15:2 YLT
2) every branch in me not bearing fruit, He doth take it away, and every one bearing fruit, He doth cleanse by pruning it, that it may bear more fruit;

John 15:2 LITV
2) Every branch in Me not bearing fruit, He takes it away; and each one bearing fruit, He prunes, so that it may bear more fruit.



lifting to take away is the meaning of airo.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There remains the requirement that all these passages reconcile with and harmonize with all those others.

Right. That includes passages like Hebrews 3:12-14, Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:26-27 and Romans 11:20-22.

You say you can forsake Him. He has promised, I will never leave you nor forsake you. What would that look like, that you might forsake God, though God will not forsake you?

Hebrews 3:12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Let's use this passage as a basis for this discussion. This passage indicates that we must "hold our original conviction firmly to the very end" in order to avoid being "hardened by sin's deceitfulness" and to avoid turning "away from the living God".

So, let's say someone decides that they no longer want to hold to their original conviction that they trust in Christ for salvation and the forgiveness of their sins because they don't feel like having to answer to anyone anymore. So, they leave the faith. They no longer believe. Does this mean that God has forsaken that person? No. Not at all. God did not want that person to do that. He did not forsake that person in that case. It means this person has forsaken God.

I've posted several passages in this thread, 1 John 3:1-3, Colossians 3:1-3, Philippians 3, last two verses. Each of these show that those who are raised with Christ, citizens of heaven, children of God . . . now . . . will be with Him then. Each contain a qualification to be met, each essentially the same, reconciled and regenerate, no other qualifications.

Let's take a look at one of them.

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

So, do you think what Paul said in verse 2 just automatically happens or do we need to decide whether or not to set our affections on things above instead of on things on the earth? What if we don't set our affections on things above and instead set our affections on things on the earth instead? Are there any consequences for that? I would think so since Paul didn't say that for no reason.

So, I don't see at all how this passage teaches that it's not possible for a saved person to lose their faith and fall away.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The moment you say “God gave,” you've already surrendered your foundation.

Oh, please. Give me a break. I surrender nothing by saying that. Stop the nonsense. I don't need this from someone who thinks that many verses in our English translations are mistranslated. Why do you even reference our English translations at all when you think so many verses in them are mistranslated?

Let me give you an example, something Zao posted after misrepresenting 1 Timothy 6:16:

"For as the Father has life in Himself, so He (God) has granted the Son also to have life in Himself." — John 5:26

Do you see how this fully supports 1 Timothy 6:13 that God (singular) is the true giver of life?

Throughout Scripture, we see that God is greater than Christ (John 14:28), and that Jesus remains subordinate to the Father, though he reveals Him perfectly. Jesus was sent by God (via His HS Power), lived a sinless life, and now serves as the mediator between God and mankind (1 Timothy 2:5; John 17:3).

This understanding is supported by many passages:

• Jesus' dependence on the Father (John 5:26–30)
• His prayers of submission (Luke 22:42)
• God's role in raising him from the dead (Romans 4:24)
• His future subjection to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24–28)
• And the distinction between God and Jesus in divine purpose (Ephesians 1:3,17; Revelation 1:1)

In short, Jesus is God’s Son, not God Himself, fully obedient, appointed, and glorified by the Father, who alone is the supreme source of life (Hosea 11:9; James 1:13; Titus 1:2; Hebrews 4:15).

You are not differentiating between Christ's humanity and His deity. Of course, God is greater than Jesus as a man, but Jesus is both God and man. God the Father is not greater than God the Son. God the Father and God the Son are one (John 10:30) and scriptures says God the Father and God the Son have all authority and power in heaven (Matthew 28:18).

Read this passage:

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Do you think that God would be willing to let anyone lesser than Himself to be worshiped? Absolutely not! Yet, Jesus accepted worship. Do you think He was committing blasphemy by accepting worship? The only way He could have not been committing blasphemy by accepting worship is if He is God.

Do you really think that God would give all power and authority to anyone lesser than Himself? Absolutely not! Yet, that is what He gave to Jesus. Only God can ever have all power and authority in heaven and earth.

 

[marks]

Hebrews 3:12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Whoa! I can't believe I neglected vs 14!

First, I'm going to go with a more literal translation.

Hebrews 3:14 KJV
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 3:14 LITV
14) For we have become partakers of Christ, if truly we hold the beginning of the assurance firm to the end;

Hebrews 3:14 YLT
14) for partakers we have become of the Christ, if the beginning of the confidence unto the end we may hold fast,


This gets back to the grammar.

"we have become" is in the perfect tense, that is, an action with enduring effect. Something that is done that remains done. It's like an unrung bell. Until you ring it, that's what it is. Then you ring it. It will never again be an unrung bell. That's the sense of the perfect tense.

This passage is saying that some have become partakers of Christ, and remain that way, but it's only true if they actually hold their confidence to the end.

It's not saying you stop being "having become partakers of Christ" if you lose your confidence, rather, that were were not made a partaker of Christ if you are one of those.

The statement tells us we have become partakers of Christ (done and remains done) and then qualifies it to refer only to those who remain confident to the end.

Once again I'm pointing to the wording and grammar of the passage.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So, do you think what Paul said in verse 2 just automatically happens or do we need to decide whether or not to set our affections on things above instead of on things on the earth? What if we don't set our affections on things above and instead set our affections on things on the earth instead? Are there any consequences for that? I would think so since Paul didn't say that for no reason.

Paul's exhortations to us do not negate the truth he has written.

After giving us this glorious truth, he goes on to tell us to mortify our members that are upon the earth. We are to take this truth, and just like John wrote, He who has this hope purifies himself, even as he (Jesus) is pure.

Much love!