For what reason was Jesus to be called the Son of God?
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Unfortunately, it wasn’t something we could agree on. Would someone like to suggest an explanation for why we weren’t to agree that “I” is a singular personal pronoun and means only one person?
The Word was an immortal and incorporeal Spirit in Heaven (Jn. 1:1;4:24;1:14), and then He became incarnate as a mortal and corporeal human (Jesus), so that He could die a physical death (Matt. 20:28, Lk. 1:31, Jn. 1:14;6:38;10:15). Then, He brought His lifeless Body back to life by His own power (Jn. 10:17) because He's God, and only God gives and takes away life (Job. 1:21, Deut. 32:39, Ac. 17:24).
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Please show me where it says that Jesus raised himself from the dead…..?
Acts 2:30-36…after the holy spirit was poured out on the faithful in Jerusalem, as Jesus had promised, Peter said to the Jews concerning King David..….
”Therefore, being a prophet and knowing that God had sworn an oath to him to seat on his throne one of the fruit of his loins, 31 he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he neither was abandoned to the realm of death nor did his flesh see decay. 32 This Jesus God raised to life; of which we are all of us witnesses. 33 So, being raised on high by God’s right hand and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which you both see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, but he himself says ‘The Lord said to my lord “Sit at my right hand 35 till I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’ 36 So let all the house of Israel know positively that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” (BLE)
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
That scripture in a little more context….
“For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” (John 10:17-18 ESV)
The authority to take up his life again comes from his God and Father, who resurrected him.
Precisely, because only God gives and takes away life (Deut. 32:39, Jn. 5:21). And, God is one and trine: the Father (the Thought), the Son (the Word), and the Holy Spirit, each distinct, united as one because They are the same Essence: love (1 Jn. 4:8). He Who Is has the title "the Father" because of the Son and vice versa, because the Generating generated Himself. (Jn. 1:14;6:38;20:21, Lk. 1:35)
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Berean
Well-Known Member
Where do any of these scriptures show that The Word was "an immortal and incorporeal spirit in heaven"?
Really? Other texts indicate that the Father resurrected Jesus, as he did not raise himself. (Acts 2:24; Gal. 1:1) Verse 17 discusses the life rights Jesus willingly gave up at Calvary, which he now possesses again to offer to Justice in due time. While it was essential for the Father to raise him, Jesus understood this before coming to Earth. If we knew we would die while sacrificing ourselves for others, but also knew the Father would bring us back after fulfilling our duty, we could speak as Jesus did. It was certain that Jesus would lay down his life and take it up again, meaning that upon resurrection, he would hold the rights to both spiritual and human life, which he never lost. Jesus allowed his human life to be taken but did not give it up; it remains his. He will share this right to human life with humanity. These life rights are the reward, the Ransom value for the world. 'I lay down my life, that I might take it again.' In summary, after the Father raised him, Jesus has the life rights available to him.
Jesus loved His sheep, and this love came from the Father. John often highlighted the connection between Jesus and the Father. When Jesus spoke of his love, he always included the Father. He was fulfilling the Father's desire for others' salvation, acting as a mediator to achieve it. God is the true Savior, as stated, 'Why do you call me good? There is only one who is good, and that is God' (Matt. 19:17). John's Gospel is exceptional.
David Lamb
Active Member
How about:
“"Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."” (Joh 10:17-18 NKJV)
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
This was covered in post #107.
The ”authority” or “power” (“exousia” meaning a free willed choice) to lay down his life and to restore it came from his Father. (Acts 2:32, 36) Both Father and son willingly agreeing to rescue Adam’s children.
Jesus would willingly lay down his life and his God and Father would restore it….and in the process free Adam’s children from the debt he created for them.
The very reason why Jesus was born as a mortal, was so that he could die in our place, lifting the burden of Adamic death from the whole human race….freeing them of their awful inheritance. He did not have to be God to pay the price of redemption, if you understand how redemption works.
All Jesus needed to be was a sinless mortal human….the exact equivalent of Adam, who lost perfect sinless life for all his descendants. A redeemer pays the price demanded under the law to free someone who has been cast into slavery because he could not pay a debt…..perfect human life was lost for the whole human race and Christ forfeited his perfect human life to pay Adam’s debt. That is why he is called “the last Adam”. (1 Cor 15:45) He paid a debt that none of us could. And if he had been a god/man, he would not have been the equivalent of Adam……and he could not have died because God is immortal and cannot die.
Think it through…..
The idea of the Holy Trinity doesn't make sense to you at this time, but it doesn't mean that you never will. And, neither did it make sense at first to others who later did come to understand.
Precisely, and I've said that is Their relationship.
“The Generator generated himself”…..what???….where will I find that written anywhere?
In the scriptural writings that we have, you won't find it written word for word "The Generating generated Himself", but there's more than one way to say something.
The Word was made flesh, He lived among us, and we saw His glory, the glory that is His as the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John appears as His witness. He proclaims, "This is the one of Whom I said, He who comes after me ranks before me because He existed before me."
Indeed, from His fullness we have, all of us, received—yes, Grace in return for grace, since though the Law was given through Moses, Grace and truth have come through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; it is the only Son, Who is nearest to the Father's heart, Who has made Him known.
Not two natures, but only One. Not just One Person but Two. Of the same Nature. Different in Their personal relationship of generation. One single Being, even if two distinct Persons.
Therefore God the Father, just like God the Son, form the One, only God. As the Father is eternal so the Son is eternal.
Omnipotent, infinite, the most perfect, the Generated One just as the Generating One.
The Two with One will, knowledge and power, even though They are reciprocally independent in Their action; willing, knowing, and having power, the Word as it wants, knows and has the Thought which generated it contemplating itself in its Most perfect Perfections, and understanding itself, as only God can understand God, and exult in seeing oneself.
And in this exultation generate the Light, the Life, because They were and would create, multiplying the loving joy of God Who shines through the power of diffusing His love on an infinite number of creatures, giving them all His loving care, giving the creatures made in His image and likeness Himself and His Kingdom in order to surround Himself with a people of sons, enlightened in time by the Light so that they can know, serve, and love the Lord, gladdened by the eternal enjoyment of the beatific vision of God beyond time.
The Generated Word is not inferior in relationship to the Generating Thought, but is spontaneously obedient out of the holiest love of the Divine Son to His Father Who has divinely generated Him.
It is Love which makes distinct Persons "A single thing". Unity in Trinity is through the Holy Spirit, that is the Charity which is the Spirit of the Lord. The Most Holy Spirit of the Most Holy God.
The Son, exulting in the bosom of the Father, Who exults contemplating His Word and seeing every creature in the Light generated by Him, to whom He has given His Life and every other property, except that of His being Father. This is so that every creature gifted with spirit and reason, can sufficiently know God His Creator through the eternal generation of the Word and His incarnation in time; because all the admirable perfections of God the Father are visible in the Uncreated Word and the Incarnate Word.
In the Most Holy Word, all the unknowable truth of the Heavens and the wonderful story of mankind's destiny are present. Through the Word, mankind can know, recognizing himself made to love and predestined to possess God, He Who is unfathomable, but Who the Light reveals in a favourable way so that man can know Him and save himself by loving Him, and gaining Life through this love.
The Father is pleased with the willing exultance of the Son, the image of His substance and splendour of His glory, the Maker of all that has been created, Author of the regeneration of mankind to supernatural life.
This reciprocal exultation and giving happiness, The One to The Other, The One in The Other, since the beginning without a beginning, God with God, God in God, is how Love proceeds. He Who, at the right time, gives Flesh to the Eternal Word, making the Son of God the Christ, always one with the Father, but no longer one Nature in Two Persons, as in the Beginning, but Two natures in the one person of the God-Man, true God in the substance of the Father from Whom He is never separated, and true Man by the substance taken from His Mother. (7/25/48)
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"The Word is God "(Jn. 1:1)
"God is Spirit" (Jn. 4:24) [Note: spirits are immortal and incorporeal beings (Lk. 24:39)]
The Word "came down from Heaven" (1:14) and "became flesh" (Jn. 1:14)
Hence, the Word preexisted in Heaven as an immortal and incorporeal Spirit before becoming a mortal and corporeal human.
Not only by the Father, and I had said that Jesus brought His Body back to life by His own power. Only God gives and takes away life (Job. 1:21, Deut. 32:39, Ac. 17:24), and God is one and trine:
"Destroy this temple, and in three days I (the Son) will raise it up" (Jn. 2:19)
"[...] the Father, Who raised Him from the dead [...]" (Gal. 1:1)
"But if the Spirit of Him (God) Who raised up Jesus from the dead [...]" (Rom. 8:11)
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Berean
Well-Known Member
That can be debated.
Yes, I admit "God is Spirit", but Luke 24:39 says nothing about spirits being immortal. Are you saying that angels are immortal, since they are spirit beings? I guess Satan and his demons who are all spirit beings are immortal that even God can't destroy them, since that is what immortal means.
Still doesn't say he was immortal.
What translation is this?
Everything can be debated, and not everything is true, or false.
It's written "The Word is God "(Jn. 1:1) and God, Who is Spirit (Jn. 4:24), is immortal: "Now to the King eternal, immortal [...]" (1 Tim. 1:17). The Koine Greek word for "immortal" is "'ἄφθαρτος":
Therefore, other spirits, such as angels and demons, do not die through physical death, for they are immortal, but they can indeed undergo a spiritual death (eternal separation from God) if they cut themselves off from the Breast of their Lord. Hatred—in whatever form or manifestation—is the knife which cuts the tie to the Lord, and the spirit, separated from God, dies. (BOA)
I linked the wrong verse. Disregard.
Not only by the Father, and I had said that Jesus brought His Body back to life by His own power. Only God gives and takes away life (Job. 1:21, Deut. 32:39, Ac. 17:24), and God is one and trine:
"Destroy this temple, and in three days I (the Son) will raise it up" (Jn. 2:19)
"[...] the Father, Who raised Him from the dead [...]" (Gal. 1:1)
"But if the [Holy] Spirit of Him (God) Who raised up Jesus from the dead [...]" (Rom. 8:11)
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That can be said by every one of the thousands of denominations that exist now.
Correct, and not only is it written that the Word was with God, but that the Word is God as well.
θεόν (theon) is the accusative form of the word for "God" (θεὸς/theos):
| Case | Accusative (who or what the action is directly done to, e.g., "I saw him") |
θεὸς (theos)
| Case | Nominative (who or what is doing the action or being described) |
In Jn. 1:1 we read, "Ἐν (In) ἀρχῇ (beginning) ἦν (was) ὁ (the) λόγος (Word), καὶ (and) ὁ (the) λόγος (Word) ἦν (was) πρὸς τὸν (with) θεόν (God), καὶ (and) θεὸς (God) ἦν (was) ὁ (the) λόγος (Word).”
Again, Their relationship is Father (the Generating) and the Son (the Generated One). The Generated Word (the Son) is not inferior in relationship to the Generating Thought (the Father), but is spontaneously obedient out of the holiest love of the Divine Son to His Father Who has divinely generated Him. (7/25/48)
I've never said anything other than there's one God in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I was just speaking specifically at times about the Father and the Son.
Correct, and I never said that there exist two or three separate gods, because there aren't.
Yes, the sin committed by man had to be expiated by man and not by the non-incarnate divinity. How could the Divinity, incorporeal Spirit, redeem the sins of the flesh with the sacrifice of Itself? That is why it was, then, necessary that He, God, should pay for the sins of flesh and blood with the agony of an innocent Flesh and Blood, born of an innocent Woman.
His mind, His feeling, and His spirit would have suffered for our sins in mind, feeling, and spirit. But to be the Redemption of all forms of concupiscence inoculated into Adam and his descendants by the Tempter, the One Immolated for them all had to be endowed with a nature like ours, made worthy of being given as a ransom to God by the Divinity hidden in it, like a gem of infinite supernatural value hidden under common, natural clothing.
He had not only to cancel sin from the moment it occurred until the moment of the sacrifice and annul in those to come the effects of sin by having them be born unaware of evil. No. With a total sacrifice He had to make reparation for Sin and the sins of all mankind, give the men already dead absolution of sin, and give those living at that time and in the future the means to be helped to resist evil, and to be forgiven for the evil which their weakness would lead them to do.
His sacrifice thus had to be such as to present all the necessary requisites, and it could be such only in a God made man: a host worthy of God, a means understood by man. In addition, He came to bring the Law.
If His Humanity had not existed, how could we—His poor brothers and sisters, who labor to have faith in Him, Who lived for thirty-three years on the earth, a Man among men—have believed? And how could He appear, already an adult, to hostile or ignorant peoples, making them convinced of His nature and His doctrine? He would then have appeared, in the eyes of the world, as a spirit Who had taken on a human likeness, but not as a man Who was born and died, shedding real Blood through the wounds of a real flesh as proof of being a man—and rose again and ascended to Heaven with His glorified body—as proof of being God returning to His eternal dwelling.
Isn't it sweeter for us to think that He is really our Brother, with the destiny of creatures who are born, live, suffer, and die, than to conceive of Him as a spirit superior to the exigencies of humanity?
It was necessary, then, for a woman to give birth to Him according to the flesh, after having conceived Him above the flesh, for from no marriage of creatures, no matter how holy they were, could the God-Man be conceived, but only from a wedding of Purity and Love, the Spirit and the Virgin, created without stain so as to be the matrix for the flesh of a God, the Virgin the Thought of Whom was God's joy, since before time existed, the Virgin in Whom there is a compendium of the Father's creative perfection, the joy of Heaven, the salvation of the Earth, the most beautiful flower of Creation of all the flowers of the Universe, a living star before whom all the suns created by His Father seem dull. (N43)
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Thanks.
I changed my registration status from “Christian” to “Other Faith” almost three years ago. I’m a Jewish monotheist who believes that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised and prophesied Messiah, Son of the living God. Other online discussion forums - and academic institutions - have recognized and acknowledged me as a primitive Christian. Being registered here as “Christian” isn’t of any great importance to me. It was an easy change for me to make.
I don’t mind discussing it but I have no interest in debating about the Trinity. Just as it is a settled matter for those who affirm the Nicene Creed, it’s a settled matter for me - a believer who affirms the creed of Judaism.
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Berean
Well-Known Member
They changed the rules again? Just a few months ago they allowed trinity discussions
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