Do you believe the lie?

[Sister-n-Christ]

You don't believe the disciples were baptized?

They would be Baptized. It would be very strange for Jesus to command they go forth and Baptize people when bringing his Good News if the Apostles themselves were not Baptized first.
Likely John the Baptizer Baptized them. Or Jesus himself did so .

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You assumed things about what I said, and you still haven't admitted it.

LOL. Did you not even read what I said? I'll post it again...

There are many passages which clearly indicate that Jesus is God, so I was not being dishonest to assume that means you must think those verses are mistranslated. That is what others here who deny that Jesus is God claim, so I figured you probably do the same.

I said right here that I was honestly assuming things about what you said and I told you why. I was saying it was an honest mistake to assume that you believe the verses about Jesus being God are mistranslated because that is exactly what others who don't believe Jesus is God claim, such as Aunty Jane. So, why would you say I haven't admitted that I assumed something about what you said when that is exactly what I did?

So no engagement with the source of Paul's teachings? This doesn't place you in a very good light Spiritual.

Your comments like this are meaningless to me. You are not accepting what Paul clearly taught in Philippians 2:5-8 and you're trying to distract attention away from that.

Once again, if you can’t acknowledge the context of the verse, chapter, and the entire epistle, how can we have a meaningful discussion about its meaning?

LOL. You are not accepting what the text very plainly says. You're trying to distract from that. No other verses surrounding that passage say that Jesus is not God and that passage says that He is God. You just don't want to accept it.

It's like you want to force your own interpretation on the whole book! You can't do that Spiritual.

LOL. Stop saying such foolish things. I am trying to talk about what it so clearly says in Philippians 2:5-8 and you would rather talk about anything else but that! A sure sign that you have something to hide! Your username seems very appropriate.

You completely overlooked everything in my response that was meant to guide you toward the truth.

LOL. Let me make something very clear here. You have nothing to teach me about the truth. That is very obvious. Anyone who denies that Jesus is God despite the overwhelming scriptural evidence is not someone who I would ever trust to guide me toward the truth.

You must be used to deceiving people who just take your word for things. You can't fool me with your false teaching.

I’m at a loss if you’re not willing to let the Word teach you.

I am willing and that's why I know that Jesus is the Word and the Word is God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't agree that we are both doing this.

Do you understand the meaning of the Perfect Tense of this verb? How would you describe it in your own words?

You never need reply to me if you don't want to. And yes I agree this is a good discussion. No need to make things personal, but you know best for you.

I wasn't just concerned about me making things personal, but I know how, in the past, you have taken offense to things and have taken things personally. So, I would like to avoid that if we can. We clearly are likely to never agree about this, so what is the point in continuing to repeat ourselves? I see no point. So, I say thanks for the discussion and I'm moving on from it.

 

[Hiddenthings]

LOL. Did you not even read what I said? I'll post it again...


I said right here that I was honestly assuming things about what you said and I told you why. I was saying it was an honest mistake to assume that you believe the verses about Jesus being God are mistranslated because that is exactly what others who don't believe Jesus is God claim, such as Aunty Jane. So, why would you say I haven't admitted that I assumed something about what you said when that is exactly what I did?

I don’t need to rely on translation debates to show that Jesus is not God....clear, contextual analysis of Scripture gives us the answers. Isaiah reveals the true motivation behind Paul’s exhortation in Philippians 2, and really, it shapes the entire letter.

Your comments like this are meaningless to me. You are not accepting what Paul clearly taught in Philippians 2:5-8 and you're trying to distract attention away from that.

So you are saying the basis of Paul's thoughts are meaningless?

LOL. You are not accepting what the text very plainly says. You're trying to distract from that. No other verses surrounding that passage say that Jesus is not God and that passage says that He is God. You just don't want to accept it.

I understand what you're trying to read into the text and the reasoning behind it, but your resistance to Isaiah and the Servant Prophecies reveals a serious gap in your understanding. It's as though you're more willing to lean on the councils of men and their creeds than to enter into the spiritual echoes of the Word itself.

This is a serious offence Spiritual

LOL. Stop saying such foolish things. I am trying to talk about what it so clearly says in Philippians 2:5-8 and you would rather talk about anything else but that! A sure sign that you have something to hide! Your username seems very appropriate.

Exactly!! it was the hidden things within the Scriptures that the first readers drew upon. They didn’t look ahead to church councils that hadn’t even been formed yet to gain their insight; instead, they went back into the very same texts Paul was using to build their understanding.

I’m simply trying to encourage you to do the same, but your resistance to this approach is becoming increasingly apparent.

LOL. Let me make something very clear here. You have nothing to teach me about the truth. That is very obvious. Anyone who denies that Jesus is God despite the overwhelming scriptural evidence is not someone who I would ever trust to guide me toward the truth.

You must be used to deceiving people who just take your word for things. You can't fool me with your false teaching.


I am willing and that's why I know that Jesus is the Word and the Word is God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Everything in your response suggests an unwillingness. I'm certain you can sense this - clearly youre an intelligent person.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Spiritual Israelite

Isaiah 49:5 says, “And now the LORD says—He who formed me in the womb to be His servant…”

Was Jesus formed in the womb to possess two natures, or was He formed to become a servant?

What was God's intention in bringing Jesus into the world? Was it to share His divine nature while dwelling in our fallen human condition—or was it to shape him (in character and purpose) to be God's servant, even though he was His Son?

You know the central theme of the letter to the Philippians is about embracing the mind of Christ. Jesus chose to take on the form of a servant rather than grasping at the privilege of being the Son.

You also know that nowhere in the Bible does the subject of two natures appear.

Recognising any or all of these points is essential if you’re to gain a true understanding of the text you've presented.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don’t need to rely on translation debates to show that Jesus is not God....clear, contextual analysis of Scripture gives us the answers. Isaiah reveals the true motivation behind Paul’s exhortation in Philippians 2, and really, it shapes the entire letter.

Total nonsense. Paul wrote that Jesus Christ is in His very nature God, but did not want to use His equality with God to His advantage while He was on the earth because He had a mission to die on the cross for the sins of the world. You do not accept what Paul wrote in Philippians 2:5-8 about Jesus Christ. You try to get around it with your word salads, but it can't be done.

So you are saying the basis of Paul's thoughts are meaningless?

Don't ask dumb questions. I would never say that about Paul and you know it. You know that I'm disagreeing with YOU, not Paul.

I understand what you're trying to read into the text and the reasoning behind it, but your resistance to Isaiah and the Servant Prophecies reveals a serious gap in your understanding. It's as though you're more willing to lean on the councils of men and their creeds than to enter into the spiritual echoes of the Word itself.

I don't even read any creeds, so you have no idea of what you're talking about. You reveal that more and more with every post you make.

This is a serious offence Spiritual

LOL. Why do you imagine that I care at all what you think? I do not. I know that you are deceived and that you deny clear scripture. You say you accept what is written in the English translations, but you clearly do not.

Exactly!!

Exactly, you have something to hide? Well, thanks for admitting it. What you have to hide is the fact that you won't accept clear, straightforward scripture which says that Jesus is God and created all things.

Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

How do you explain this passage away? It clearly indicates that Jesus created all things and we all know that God created all things. Therefore, Jesus is God.

it was the hidden things within the Scriptures that the first readers drew upon. They didn’t look ahead to church councils that hadn’t even been formed yet to gain their insight; instead, they went back into the very same texts Paul was using to build their understanding.

I’m simply trying to encourage you to do the same, but your resistance to this approach is becoming increasingly apparent.

Your resistance to the truth became very apparent awhile ago already.

Everything in your response suggests an unwillingness. I'm certain you can sense this - clearly youre an intelligent person.

Clearly, you have no idea of what you're talking about. You keep proving it over and over again.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Total nonsense. Paul wrote that Jesus Christ is in His very nature God, but did not want to use His equality with God to His advantage while He was on the earth because He had a mission to die on the cross for the sins of the world. You do not accept what Paul wrote in Philippians 2:5-8 about Jesus Christ. You try to get around it with your word salads, but it can't be done.

You are applying your notions on what you think Paul is saying - Isaiah is teaching us the truth about "form" and it's not relating to nature!

I think you can sense this is true but you are holding to your position out of fear.

Don't ask dumb questions. I would never say that about Paul and you know it. You know that I'm disagreeing with YOU, not Paul.

No, your resistance has you disagreeing with Paul because you are unwilling to go to the source of his encouragement. You won't even mention it in your response at all!

I don't even read any creeds, so you have no idea of what you're talking about. You reveal that more and more with every post you make.

Your belief is rooted in councils and creeds where the doctrine you now follow was developed. Something tells me you're aware of this, but I also understand why you’ve chosen to take this path.

LOL. Why do you imagine that I care at all what you think? I do not. I know that you are deceived and that you deny clear scripture. You say you accept what is written in the English translations, but you clearly do not.

Interesting approach

Exactly, you have something to hide? Well, thanks for admitting it. What you have to hide is the fact that you won't accept clear, straightforward scripture which says that Jesus is God and created all things.

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law." Deut 29:29

Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

How do you explain this passage away? It clearly indicates that Jesus created all things and we all know that God created all things. Therefore, Jesus is God.

Yeah good quote Spiritual!

If the Son is described as the image of the invisible God, how can the image itself be the very One who is being represented?

It's no different to this verse which applies to you!

Romans 8 teaches that God’s purpose is to bring all believers into conformity with the image of His Son...

Are you Christ?

Your resistance to the truth became very apparent awhile ago already.

Clearly, you have no idea of what you're talking about. You keep proving it over and over again.

These kinds of claims quickly run out of solid evidence. The irony is, I’m actually trying to provide you with that substance, yet you continue to reject it.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

It's actually harder than you think to prove your understanding.

Who is the image of the invisible God’ clearly refers back to Genesis 1:26, where God says, ‘Let us make man in our image.’ Christ, described as ‘full of grace and truth,’ showed he was the true image of the invisible God through his faithful obedience even to death. In him, both earthly and heavenly beings are ‘created,’ as they find their renewed purpose within God’s plan. The angels, who serve those destined to inherit salvation (Hebrews 1:14), have been commanded to honor him ‘let the angels of God worship him".

Wherever you look, Jesus is consistently portrayed as a created being, perfect and sinless, yet always a created man, born of a woman and descending from the line of Adam, Abraham, David, and so forth.

Are you aware that even in his exalted state (now!), He still traces his lineage back to David?

Rather amazing really.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are applying your notions on what you think Paul is saying - Isaiah is teaching us the truth about "form" and it's not relating to nature!

I think you can sense this is true but you are holding to your position out of fear.

Who are you trying to fool with your nonsense? You can't fool me. Holding my position out of fear? LOL!!! You are delusional.

Philippians 2:5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

You can't get around it. Paul said Jesus was God and said He was equal with God, but He did not want to take advantage of that because He came to die for the sins of the world. He could have avoided that if He wanted. But, He humbled Himself as a man to die for the sins of the world. But, He never gave up His deity by doing that.

No, your resistance has you disagreeing with Paul because you are unwilling to go to the source of his encouragement. You won't even mention it in your response at all!

You won't even acknowledge that Paul said Jesus is God and did not want to take advantage of being equal with God (the Father) while He was on the earth. You have to twist and contort that passage to fit your false doctrine instead of just accepting what it clearly and straightforwardly says. Just like you do with every other passage which teaches that Jesus is God.

Your belief is rooted in councils and creeds

Stop saying stupid things like this. I do not base my beliefs on councils and creeds. I pay no attention to those things. You have me confused with someone else. Talk to me instead of your imaginary strawman.

where the doctrine you now follow was developed. Something tells me you're aware of this, but I also understand why you’ve chosen to take this path.

What I'm aware of is that you don't know me at all and you have no idea of what you're talking about.

Yeah good quote Spiritual!

If the Son is described as the image of the invisible God, how can the image itself be the very One who is being represented?

It's not different to this verse which applies to you!

Romans 8 teaches that God’s purpose is to bring all believers into conformity with the image of His Son...

Are you Christ?

Does that say I created all things? Why do you just ignore that the passage says that Jesus created all things? You do the same thing with John 1. You deny clear, straightforward scripture.

These kinds of claims quickly run out of solid evidence. The irony is, I’m actually trying to provide you with that substance, yet you continue to reject it.

I provide you with clear, straightforward scripture and you try to turn it into a word salad instead.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's actually harder than you think to prove your understanding.

Who is the image of the invisible God’ clearly refers back to Genesis 1:26, where God says, ‘Let us make man in our image.’ Christ, described as ‘full of grace and truth,’ showed he was the true image of the invisible God through his faithful obedience even to death. In him, both earthly and heavenly beings are ‘created,’ as they find their renewed purpose within God’s plan. The angels, who serve those destined to inherit salvation (Hebrews 1:14), have been commanded to honor him ‘let the angels of God worship him".

Wherever you look, Jesus is consistently portrayed as a created being, perfect and sinless, yet always a created man, born of a woman and descending from the line of Adam, Abraham, David, and so forth.

Are you aware that even in his exalted state (now!), He still traces his lineage back to David?

Rather amazing really.

As man, He was born of a virgin, but God He was not created. As long as you fail to differentiate between His deity and His humanity, you will not get it. You are deceived. Why is it that you can't accept that He could be both God and man at the same time?

 

[Hiddenthings]

View attachment 63217
Who are you trying to fool with your nonsense? You can't fool me. Holding my position out of fear? LOL!!! You are delusional.

Why the resistance? if not fear then what?

Philippians 2:5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

You can't get around it. Paul said Jesus was God and said He was equal with God, but He did not want to take advantage of that because He came to die for the sins of the world. He could have avoided that if He want. But, He humbled Himself as a man to die for the sins of the world. But, He never gave up His deity by doing that.

And still you won't go to Isaiah which is the clear basis of his encouragement?

You won't even acknowledge that Paul said Jesus is God and did not want to take advantage of being equal with God (the Father) while He was on the earth. You have to twist and contort that passage to fit your false doctrine instead of just accepting what it clearly and straightforwardly says. Just like you do with every other passage which teaches that Jesus is God.

I asked you is the context God - - > Servant or Son - - - > Servant

Let's see if you can answer this very simple question.

Stop saying stupid things like this. I do not base my beliefs on councils and creeds. I pay no attention to those things. You have me confused with someone else. Talk to me instead of your imaginary strawman.

You either legitimately do not know the history of the Trinity or you are playing games. At this stage I'm not sure what you know about the teachings you hold.

What I'm aware of is that you don't know me at all and you have no idea of what you're talking about.

Agree with the first part but the second you are clearly struggling with

Does that say I created all things? Why do you just ignore that the passage says that Jesus created all things? You do the same thing with John 1. You deny clear, straightforward scripture.

Even here, the pattern remains unseen: Christ is in the image of God, and the saints are in the image of Christ.

Both Jesus and His saints are part of a New Creation.

If only you could separate the Master from being part of this New Creation, but you can’t, and you never will.

I provide you with clear, straightforward scripture and you try to turn it into a word salad instead.

You haven’t given me any context for the passages you claim to understand.

I’ve tried to show you the foundation of Paul’s thoughts in Philippians, but you have outright rejected them.

 

[Hiddenthings]

As man, He was born of a virgin, but God He was not created. As long as you fail to differentiate between His deity and His humanity, you will not get it. You are deceived. Why is it that you can't accept that He could be both God and man at the same time?

Provide a single verse that speaks to Jesus holding two natures - just one!

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Spiritual Israelite If you’re unable to, I’ll leave this interesting discussion here, especially since you recently mentioned to Marks we don’t want things to get personal—wise words indeed!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why the resistance? if not fear then what?

Resistance to what? I'm not the one denying clear, straightforward scripture. You are.

And still you won't go to Isaiah which is the clear basis of his encouragement?

You want to avoid the clear, straightforward scripture at all costs. Not surprising. I can't take you seriously. If you can't even discern clear, straightforward scripture which says Jesus is God and created all things, what can you discern?

You either legitimately do not know the history of the Trinity or you are playing games. At this stage I'm not sure what you know about the teachings you hold.

Look here, buddy. I'm not playing games. At all. I study scripture for myself. I don't just go along with what others believe. I could not care less about what others believe or what any creeds say or any of that. The Holy Spirit is my teacher.

It's clear to me that no matter what scripture I show you that explicitly teaches that Jesus is God, you will deny it. Because you just don't want to believe it. You can't fool me.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

@Spiritual Israelite If you’re unable to, I’ll leave this interesting discussion here, especially since you recently mentioned to Marks we don’t want things to get personal—wise words indeed!

You are the one who keeps making comments that I'm playing games and acting like I'm being dishonest, but I'm not. Don't act like you are innocent here.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Resistance to what? I'm not the one denying clear, straightforward scripture. You are.

Resistance to the basis of Paul's teaching which is clearly in Isaiah and not council creeds

You want to avoid the clear, straightforward scripture at all costs. Not surprising. I can't take you seriously. If you can't even discern clear, straightforward scripture which says Jesus is God and created all things, what can you discern?

This is what you want it to say, not whats being conveyed.

Look here, buddy. I'm not playing games. At all. I study scripture for myself. I don't just go along with what others believe. I could not care less about what others believe or what any creeds say or any of that. The Holy Spirit is my teacher.

You said you don't know the history of the T and the councils it was formulated in - thats either a truth of a lie...I don't know, can't read your mind

It's clear to me that no matter what scripture I show you that explicitly teaches that Jesus is God, you will deny it. Because you just don't want to believe it. You can't fool me.

So will you provide a verse that speaks to this two natures or not?

 

[Hiddenthings]

You are the one who keeps making comments that I'm playing games and acting like I'm being dishonest, but I'm not. Don't act like you are innocent here.

You have made claims and by this response I assume you cannot provide the evidence being sought so lets leave it there.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Provide a single verse that speaks to Jesus holding two natures - just one!

LOL. You have some nerve accusing me of playing games when that is clearly what you are doing. Philippians 2:5-8 shows that, but instead of accepting that, you are playing games and asking me for a single verse which says that. What a joke. John 1 also shows that He is the Word and the Word is God (John 1:1) and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:14). That isn't one verse, but who cares? What a ridiculous request.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You said you don't know the history of the T and the councils it was formulated in - thats either a truth of a lie...I don't know, can't read your mind

Why would I lie about that? It should be clear that I get my view from scripture since I am backing up everything I believe with scripture. I have no respect for you because instead of just discussing the scriptures, you have to try to act like I'm making things up, which I am not doing. Talk to me instead of your imaginary strawman.

 

[Hiddenthings]

LOL. You have some nerve accusing me of playing games when that is clearly what you are doing. Philippians 2:5-8 shows that, but instead of accepting that, you are playing games and asking me for a single verse which says that. What a joke. John 1 also shows that He is the Word and the Word is God (John 1:1) and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:14). That isn't one verse, but who cares? What a ridiculous request.

I'll give you an example Spiritual of what I'm looking for so you not under any confusion like the above.

The Apostles understanding of Christ nature:

Since therefore the children (Spiritual) share in flesh and blood, he (Jesus) himself likewise partook of the same things

Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. Heb 2:17

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh. Romans 8:3

In both these sections not one mention of two natures only that Christ was 100% man.

Now I'm looking for a verse which supports your two natures.