Do you believe the lie?

[Spiritual Israelite]

John 15:2 YLT
2) every branch in me not bearing fruit, He doth take it away, and every one bearing fruit, He doth cleanse by pruning it, that it may bear more fruit;

John 15:2 LITV
2) Every branch in Me not bearing fruit, He takes it away; and each one bearing fruit, He prunes, so that it may bear more fruit.

View attachment 63203

lifting to take away is the meaning of airo.

Much love!

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Whoa! I can't believe I neglected vs 14!

First, I'm going to go with a more literal translation.

Hebrews 3:14 KJV
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 3:14 LITV
14) For we have become partakers of Christ, if truly we hold the beginning of the assurance firm to the end;

Hebrews 3:14 YLT
14) for partakers we have become of the Christ, if the beginning of the confidence unto the end we may hold fast,

View attachment 63204
This gets back to the grammar.

"we have become" is in the perfect tense, that is, an action with enduring effect. Something that is done that remains done. It's like an unrung bell. Until you ring it, that's what it is. Then you ring it. It will never again be an unrung bell. That's the sense of the perfect tense.

This passage is saying that some have become partakers of Christ, and remain that way, but it's only true if they actually hold their confidence to the end.

It's not saying you stop being "having become partakers of Christ" if you lose your confidence, rather, that were were not made a partaker of Christ if you are one of those.

The statement tells us we have become partakers of Christ (done and remains done) and then qualifies it to refer only to those who remain confident to the end.

Once again I'm pointing to the wording and grammar of the passage.

Much love!

How does what you're saying fit with the warnings given in the 2 verses preceding it? I don't see you looking at that verse in context. I believe it is clearly saying, in relation to those who have confidence in the first place, that they must continue having that confidence until the very end in order to be considered a partaker of Christ and that there is no guarantee that will happen because it's our responsibility to continue to trust in Christ until the very end. What matters is what someone's status is at the very end.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul's exhortations to us do not negate the truth he has written.

His exhortations are part of the truth he has written. His exhortations are in relation to us continuing to keep our faith until the very end so that we don't end up turning away from the living God. That's what passages like Hebrews 3:12-14 indicate.

After giving us this glorious truth, he goes on to tell us to mortify our members that are upon the earth. We are to take this truth, and just like John wrote, He who has this hope purifies himself, even as he (Jesus) is pure.

We are responsible to continue to have that hope in Christ until the very end.

Look, we are both looking at this in depth, looking at the Greek words, doing what we can to understand these things, and we still disagree. We've now talked about the thing that I noticed that we hadn't talked about before and we still disagree. So be it. Let's move on.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Oh, please. Give me a break.

I'm only responding to your throw away comment which had no basis!

I surrender nothing by saying that. Stop the nonsense. I don't need this from someone who thinks that many verses in our English translations are mistranslated.

Where have I said this?

Why do you even reference our English translations at all when you think so many verses in them are mistranslated?

Again, where have I said this?

You are not differentiating between Christ's humanity and His deity. Of course, God is greater than Jesus as a man, but Jesus is both God and man. God the Father is not greater than God the Son. God the Father and God the Son are one (John 10:30) and scriptures says God the Father and God the Son have all authority and power in heaven (Matthew 28:18).

Read this passage:

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

You did it again, "All power is given..." - you only prove the Source of this Power is God...who is greater than Christ. And still subject to Him to this day.

Do you think that God would be willing to let anyone lesser than Himself to be worshiped?

If he was sinless and glorified by God, absolutely! That's the whole premise of his exaltation to the right hand of the Father on High.

Absolutely not! Yet, Jesus accepted worship. Do you think He was committing blasphemy by accepting worship? The only way He could have not been committing blasphemy by accepting worship is if He is God.

This is an odd way of proving your belief. If you think "Jesus accepted worship, therefore He must be God" is a case for proving your foundation then its on shaky ground. If we say that accepting worship automatically equates to deity, we would have to explain examples where others in Scripture are also “worshipped” in a limited sense (like the elders in Revelation or human kings), but clearly aren't God. It's very weak Spiritual

Do you really think that God would give all power and authority to anyone lesser than Himself? Absolutely not! Yet, that is what He gave to Jesus. Only God can ever have all power and authority in heaven and earth.

So you're openly acknowledging the one who gives power, while at the same time trying to make the one who receives that power equal to the giver?

Adding contradictions upon contradictions.

 

[marks]

How does what you're saying fit with the warnings given in the 2 verses preceding it? I don't see you looking at that verse in context. I believe it is clearly saying, in relation to those who have confidence in the first place, that they must continue having that confidence until the very end in order to be considered a partaker of Christ and that there is no guarantee that will happen because it's our responsibility to continue to trust in Christ until the very end. What matters is what someone's status is at the very end.

Not be considered a partaker of Christ, to actually be a partaker of Christ. What this verse tells us that the ones who have been made partakers of Christ hold their confidence to the end.

If you are found at the end to have not held your confidence, this shows that you had not become a partaker of Christ. Not that you were, and stopped. That's not actually allowed in the grammar of this verse.

Much love!

 

[marks]

His exhortations are part of the truth he has written. His exhortations are in relation to us continuing to keep our faith until the very end so that we don't end up turning away from the living God. That's what passages like Hebrews 3:12-14 indicate.

His exhortations do not overturn the promise written alongside them.

Indicate? I go with, what does the passage itself say. What are the words, what do they mean, what is the syntax, and what does it mean?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where have I said this?

Many verses in our English translations clearly show that Jesus is God, so I assume you think they are mistranslated. So, you think they are translated correctly and you just don't accept what they say?

You did it again, "All power is given..." - you only prove the Source of this Power is God...who is greater than Christ. And still subject to Him to this day.

You continue to not understand that Jesus is both God and man at the same time. As the God man, He was given all power and authority. As God, before He came to earth, He already had that authority previously.

So, you accept what is written in our English translations, do you? Let's put that to the test.

Philippians 2:5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

So, this passage says Jesus is "in very nature God", but did not consider His equality with God something He should use to his own advantage, so He humbled Himself as a servant in human likeness in order to die on the cross and provide the opportunity for salvation for the entire world. This passage very clearly shows that He is both God and man. The Word was God and the Word became flesh (John 1). I like how some put it when they talk about Jesus and refer to Him as the God Man.

If he was sinless and glorified by God, absolutely! That's the whole premise of his exaltation to the right hand of the Father on High.

This is an odd way of proving your belief. If you think "Jesus accepted worship, therefore He must be God" is a case for proving your foundation then its on shaky ground.

LOL! As if that's the only way I prove He is God? It's just one of many ways. But, how can you think that God would allow anyone but Himself to be worshiped? He does not! Therefore, He would not find it acceptable for Jesus to accept worship unless Jesus is God. Why do you try to sweep that under the rug?

If we say that accepting worship automatically equates to deity, we would have to explain examples where others in Scripture are also “worshipped” in a limited sense (like the elders in Revelation or human kings), but clearly aren't God. It's very weak Spiritual

What in the world are you talking about? No one else but God is worshiped in Revelation or anywhere else in scripture. God would never find that to be acceptable.

So you're openly acknowledging the one who gives power, while at the same time trying to make the one who receives that power equal to the giver?

Adding contradictions upon contradictions.

You only see contradictions because you fail to acknowledge that Jesus is both God and man. When you understand that He is both God and man, the supposed contradictions disappear.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not be considered a partaker of Christ, to actually be a partaker of Christ. What this verse tells us that the ones who have been made partakers of Christ hold their confidence to the end.

Why is the word "if" in there then? You are trying to say it's unconditional, but the verse itself does not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

His exhortations do not overturn the promise written alongside them.

Indicate? I go with, what does the passage itself say. What are the words, what do they mean, what is the syntax, and what does it mean?

Much love!

As if I'm not also doing that? Look here. The difference between us is not that you are looking at all of this closer than I am. No. We are both trying to look at all of it very thoroughly, but we still disagree. So be it. Accept it. I don't want to talk about this any further or else things might get personal and I don't want that. This has been a good discussion, but I think it needs to end now.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Not be considered a partaker of Christ, to actually be a partaker of Christ. What this verse tells us that the ones who have been made partakers of Christ hold their confidence to the end.

If you are found at the end to have not held your confidence, this shows that you had not become a partaker of Christ. Not that you were, and stopped. That's not actually allowed in the grammar of this verse.

Much love!

The example of Judas seems to support Spiritual’s point. In Acts 1:18, Peter couldn't even bring himself to say his name, the Greek use the word for "man" and simply says houtos, meaning “this one!”

Judas was called, chosen, and baptized into the Lord. Yet, in the final hours, though he reached out and took the bread, he never drank from the cup. He choose in the end not to abide in his Lord and paid the consequence.

So, Judas did in fact partake of Christ in a very real way, he shared in his body, but he did not partake in the New Covenant sealed by his blood.

I believe, Marks, you’ll find that many who seem to abide in him will ultimately be revealed as cut off due to their disbelief. However, this does not mean they never abided in him.

(Correction made - should ref Acts 1:18)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The example of Judas seems to support Spiritual’s point. In John 1:18, Peter couldn't even bring himself to say his name, the Greek use the word for "man" and simply says houtos, meaning “this one!”

Peter isn't speaking in John 1:18, so did you mean some other verse?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Many verses in our English translations clearly show that Jesus is God, so I assume you think they are mistranslated. So, you think they are translated correctly and you just don't accept what they say?

So I didn't say those things? Why is it so hard to be honest?

You continue to not understand that Jesus is both God and man at the same time. As the God man, He was given all power and authority. As God, before He came to earth, He already had that authority previously.

Where in the Bible do you get this?

So, you accept what is written in our English translations, do you? Let's put that to the test.

Philippians 2:5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

I highlight the context and theme of Paul's words to the Philippians...do you think the context is:

God --->Servant
Son ---->Servant

If you agree the context is Son to Servant then in what way is this "mindset" which Christ revealed meant to be in us? Do you think the equality is all about nature? or thought and thinking?

What is the context?

Philippians – Usage of “Mind” or Related Terms:

• 1:7 – To think; to feel – Refers to Paul's deep affection and heartfelt feelings toward the believers.
• 2:2 (2x) – Like-minded and of one mind – Describes the unity and harmony that should characterize the ecclesia (church).
• 2:5 – Let this mind be in you – Refers to an attitude or mindset believers should adopt, modeled after Christ.
• 3:15 (2x) – Have this mind and think otherwise – Addresses holding a mature perspective, while acknowledging others may see things differently.
• 3:16 – Same mind – Encourages believers to stay in step with what they’ve already attained in their spiritual walk.
• 3:19 – Set their minds on earthly things – Describes those whose focus is on worldly desires, not spiritual priorities.
• 4:2 – Be of the same mind – A call for two sisters in Christ to reconcile and come into agreement.
• 4:10 (2x) – Care and caring again – Reflects Paul’s appreciation for their renewed thoughtfulness and concern for him.

Where in the Epistle are you taught Jesus had two natures?
Where does it teach Christ was required to have dual natures to represent us?

So, this passage says Jesus is "in very nature God", but did not consider His equality with God something He should use to his own advantage, so He humbled Himself as a servant in human likeness in order to die on the cross and provide the opportunity for salvation for the entire world. This passage very clearly shows that He is both God and man. The Word was God and the Word became flesh (John 1). I like how some put it when they talk about Jesus and refer to Him as the God Man.

Spiritual, its very clear Paul's mind is in Isaiah - did you know this?

“But emptied himself…” Philippians 2:7

This phrase aligns with Isaiah 53:12: “Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, because he poured out His soul unto death…”

Being of a Servant mind he emptied his life unto death.

Can you see this principle being taught here?

How do you think Paul's use of Isaiah 49:3,5 might reshape or deepen the points above? I’d encourage you not to rush your response, take time to reflect on where Paul is drawing his teaching from and how it connects to the servant themes in Isaiah.

Is this exhortation of Paul's dealing with the literal nature of Christ or the fashioning work of God on the mind of His Son.

I'm sure with sincerity and a truth seeking spirit you will see his lessons.

LOL! As if that's the only way I prove He is God? It's just one of many ways. But, how can you think that God would allow anyone but Himself to be worshiped? He does not! Therefore, He would not find it acceptable for Jesus to accept worship unless Jesus is God. Why do you try to sweep that under the rug?

No sweeping here Spiritual - I just had to point out "your" evidence was not strong at all.

Also, it wasn't lost on me your translation of form - nature lol - I assume that was "your" point.

Why did Paul use the Word “Form”?

The word “form” in Philippians 2:6 (“being in the form of God”) connects deeply with Old Testament language, especially in Isaiah’s Servant passages.

Use of “Formed” (to mold or shape):

• Found 26 times in Isaiah
  • Chapters 1–39: 5 times
  • Chapters 40–66: 21 times
• Also appears in:
  • Jeremiah – 11 times
  • Psalms – 8 times

The verse which is most applicable is Isaiah 49:5: “And now the LORD says, he who formed me in the womb to be his servant…”

Son ---> Servant

Jesus could have taken all the privilege's of being a Son but choose to become a Servant.

What is the significance:

• ‘in the form’ implies a ‘former’
• GOD’s WORK!!!

 

[Hiddenthings]

Peter isn't speaking in John 1:18, so did you mean some other verse?

Verse 15...sorry Acts 1:18

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So I didn't say those things? Why is it so hard to be honest?

There are many passages which clearly indicate that Jesus is God, so I was not being dishonest to assume that means you must think those verses are mistranslated. That is what others here who deny that Jesus is God claim, so I figured you probably do the same.

Where in the Bible do you get this?


I highlight the context and theme of Paul's words to the Philippians...do you think the context is:

God --->Servant
Son ---->Servant

If you agree the context is Son to Servant then in what way is this "mindset" which Christ revealed meant to be in us? Do you think the equality is all about nature? or thought and thinking?

What is the context?

Philippians – Usage of “Mind” or Related Terms:

• 1:7 – To think; to feel – Refers to Paul's deep affection and heartfelt feelings toward the believers.
• 2:2 (2x) – Like-minded and of one mind – Describes the unity and harmony that should characterize the ecclesia (church).
• 2:5 – Let this mind be in you – Refers to an attitude or mindset believers should adopt, modeled after Christ.
• 3:15 (2x) – Have this mind and think otherwise – Addresses holding a mature perspective, while acknowledging others may see things differently.
• 3:16 – Same mind – Encourages believers to stay in step with what they’ve already attained in their spiritual walk.
• 3:19 – Set their minds on earthly things – Describes those whose focus is on worldly desires, not spiritual priorities.
• 4:2 – Be of the same mind – A call for two sisters in Christ to reconcile and come into agreement.
• 4:10 (2x) – Care and caring again – Reflects Paul’s appreciation for their renewed thoughtfulness and concern for him.

Where in the Epistle are you taught Jesus had two natures?
Where does it teach Christ was required to have dual natures to represent us?



Spiritual, its very clear Paul's mind is in Isaiah - did you know this?

“But emptied himself…” Philippians 2:7

This phrase aligns with Isaiah 53:12: “Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, because he poured out His soul unto death…”

Being of a Servant mind he emptied his life unto death.

Can you see this principle being taught here?

How do you think Paul's use of Isaiah 49:3,5 might reshape or deepen the points above? I’d encourage you not to rush your response, take time to reflect on where Paul is drawing his teaching from and how it connects to the servant themes in Isaiah.

Is this exhortation of Paul's dealing with the literal nature of Christ or the fashioning work of God on the mind of His Son.

I'm sure with sincerity and a truth seeking spirit you will see his lessons.



No sweeping here Spiritual - I just had to point out "your" evidence was not strong at all.

Also, it wasn't lost on me your translation of form - nature lol - I assume that was "your" point.

Why did Paul use the Word “Form”?

The word “form” in Philippians 2:6 (“being in the form of God”) connects deeply with Old Testament language, especially in Isaiah’s Servant passages.

Use of “Formed” (to mold or shape):

• Found 26 times in Isaiah
  • Chapters 1–39: 5 times
  • Chapters 40–66: 21 times
• Also appears in:
  • Jeremiah – 11 times
  • Psalms – 8 times

The verse which is most applicable is Isaiah 49:5: “And now the LORD says, he who formed me in the womb to be his servant…”

Son ---> Servant

Jesus could have taken all the privilege's of being a Son but choose to become a Servant.

What is the significance:

• ‘in the form’ implies a ‘former’
• GOD’s WORK!!!

Nothing but word salads, twisting scripture and sweeping scripture under the rug from you. You don't accept what the text actually says. You do all kinds of scriptural gymnastics and contortions to try to get around it. Philippians 2:5-8 is very clear and straightforward and you can't get around it.

Philippians 2:5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

How much more clear can this be? Paul explicitly said that Jesus is "in very nature God" and that He was equal with God, but did not want to use that to His advantage while He was on the earth. Very clear scripture. Yet, you still deny it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Verse 15...sorry Acts 1:18

Yes, you were right that Peter didn't even mention Judas's name there, which is similar to Jesus referring to Judas but not by name here:

John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

 

[marks]

Why is the word "if" in there then? You are trying to say it's unconditional, but the verse itself does not.

The condition is whether this is true of you or not. If you don't hold your confidence to the end, then you were not made a partaker of Christ.

Much love!

 

[marks]

As if I'm not also doing that? Look here. The difference between us is not that you are looking at all of this closer than I am. No. We are both trying to look at all of it very thoroughly, but we still disagree. So be it. Accept it. I don't want to talk about this any further or else things might get personal and I don't want that. This has been a good discussion, but I think it needs to end now.

I don't agree that we are both doing this.

Do you understand the meaning of the Perfect Tense of this verb? How would you describe it in your own words?

You never need reply to me if you don't want to. And yes I agree this is a good discussion. No need to make things personal, but you know best for you.

Much love!

 

[marks]

and baptized into the Lord.

Scripture please.

Much love!

 

[Hiddenthings]

There are many passages which clearly indicate that Jesus is God, so I was not being dishonest to assume that means you must think those verses are mistranslated. That is what others here who deny that Jesus is God claim, so I figured you probably do the same.

You assumed things about what I said, and you still haven't admitted it.

Nothing but word salads, twisting scripture and sweeping scripture under the rug from you. You don't accept what the text actually says. You do all kinds of scriptural gymnastics and contortions to try to get around it. Philippians 2:5-8 is very clear and straightforward and you can't get around it.

So no engagement with the source of Paul's teachings? This doesn't place you in a very good light Spiritual.

Philippians 2:5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

How much more clear can this be? Paul explicitly said that Jesus is "in very nature God" and that He was equal with God, but did not want to use that to His advantage while He was on the earth. Very clear scripture. Yet, you still deny it.

Once again, if you can’t acknowledge the context of the verse, chapter, and the entire epistle, how can we have a meaningful discussion about its meaning?

It's like you want to force your own interpretation on the whole book! You can't do that Spiritual.

You completely overlooked everything in my response that was meant to guide you toward the truth.

I’m at a loss if you’re not willing to let the Word teach you.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Scripture please.

Much love!

You don't believe the disciples were baptized?