Premillennialism contradicts scripture (1 Corinthians 15:50-54) by having mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God when Jesus returns.
- Thread starter Spiritual Israelite
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
ECT = eternal conscious torment, this view clearly meaning they are conscious and being tormented forever without end. Which is impossible for humans unless they live forever first. My point being, eating from the tree of life is connected with living forever. No human cast into the LOF is going to be eating from the tree of life period, let alone forever. Therefore, how is it logical, in regards to humans cast into the LOF that ECT is their fate?
When the TOL was blocked for humans after the fall, humans began dying eventually. Obviously, when humans are cast into the LOF they are still being blocked access to the TOL. But ECT teaches that they live forever, regardless. It's a contradiction that humans can't live forever without eating of the tree of life forever, but humans can live forever without eating of the TOL forever. The former meaning Revelation 22:2, the latter meaning ECT and those cast into the LOF, that the former can't live forever without eating of the TOL, but that the latter can.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Thank you.
It's very interesting because the fire and brimstone of Revelation 14:10 is IMO clearly an allusion to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, which isn't an ongoing thing, though to this day the geology of the area still bears testimony to its destruction.
IMO that evidence of Sodom & Gomorrah's destruction is - in a sense - "the smoke of their torment".
But in Acts 24:15 Paul said that he had hope toward God that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
In John 5:28-29 Jesus said "The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
Hebrews 3:18, 4:1 & 10 refers to those who remain faithful to His Word entering the sabbath rest, but it's not the same Greek word being used as in Revelation 14:11, which says that they "have no rest day nor night". The Greek word in Revelation 14:11 seems to be referring to a respite from the torment mentioned, and says that they have no respite, the smoke of their torment ascending up to the ages of the ages,
which sounds very similar to Daniel 12:2: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
So we have a resurrection of the unjust unto everlasting contempt (Daniel), unto damnation (Jesus), and the smoke of their torment ascending to the ages of the ages (Revelation). But a resurrection unto everlasting life [zoe] is dependant upon being able to eat of the tree of life and be alive [zao] unto God to the ages of the ages.
The geological evidence of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah does not mean that those who perished there are suffering permanent torment - BUT they have not been resurrected to such a thing, either. But that lake of fire = the second death, and Jesus spoke about both soul and body being destroyed in gehenna.It's very interesting because the fire and brimstone of Revelation 14:10 is IMO clearly an allusion to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, which isn't an ongoing thing, though to this day the geology of the area still bears testimony to its destruction.
IMO that evidence of Sodom & Gomorrah's destruction is - in a sense - "the smoke of their torment".
But in Acts 24:15 Paul said that he had hope toward God that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
In John 5:28-29 Jesus said "The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
Hebrews 3:18, 4:1 & 10 refers to those who remain faithful to His Word entering the sabbath rest, but it's not the same Greek word being used as in Revelation 14:11, which says that they "have no rest day nor night". The Greek word in Revelation 14:11 seems to be referring to a respite from the torment mentioned, and says that they have no respite, the smoke of their torment ascending up to the ages of the ages,
which sounds very similar to Daniel 12:2: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
So we have a resurrection of the unjust unto everlasting contempt (Daniel), unto damnation (Jesus), and the smoke of their torment ascending to the ages of the ages (Revelation). But a resurrection unto everlasting life [zoe] is dependant upon being able to eat of the tree of life and be alive [zao] unto God to the ages of the ages.
Either the scriptures are not clear or don't provide enough info, or my mind is too fallible to fully understand (probably the latter),
OR it is clear - but my mind does not want to imagine ECT.
Or something.
And God who loved us in our sin also loves Israel whom He made for a specific purpose. Israel will turn to God when He reveals Himself to them. (Zech. 12: 10)
Only a remnant of Israel will be saved. Isaiah 10:22; Romans 9:27
Two Israels.
Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed
2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed
Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.
Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Only faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel" in Christ, comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.
Isaac is the child of promise. It will be through Isaac that some of Israel will rule the nations.
`In Isaac your seed shall be called....the children of the promise are counted as the seed.` (Rom. 9: 7 & 8)
Physical children.
Spiritual children.
The Church.
Galatians 4
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
How do you interpret this...
Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
According to Paul, it is the spiritual children of Abraham and Isaac, not the physical children, who are the children of the promise and are counted as the seed. It is those who are "born after the Spirit" and are under the new covenant rather than the old covenant. You need to learn to not interpret scripture passages in isolation from the rest of scripture. You are interpreting Romans 9:7-8 in such a way that contradicts other scripture like Galatians 4:22-31.
Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Paul indicated that those who are called through Isaac and are the children of the promise are those who are "born after the Spirit" and it has nothing to do with the nationality of those who are "born after the flesh". So, all who are born of the Spirit, which are all who belong to Christ, including all Jew and Gentile believers, are spiritual children of the promise like Isaac was.
Last edited:
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Not only Spiritual children. Issac was a spiritual child who was also physically related to Abraham. Jacob was a spiritual child who was also physically related to Abraham.
But, scripture makes it clear that being a spiritual child/descendant of Abraham and of the promise has nothing to do with being a physical child/descendant of Abraham.
Romans 9:7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
If Revelation 14:9-11 does not refer to eternal torment despite referring to those in the lake of fire as having no rest day or night forever, then it seems to me that we would have to conclude the same in relation to the devil, Satan.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
So, do you believe Satan will be tormented forever or that he will be annihilated?
Jesus quoted the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10 in a first coming context rather than a second coming context, so it has no direct relation to Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7.
John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. 36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
It depends on the question being addressed. You are correct about the spiritual benefits of belonging to Christ. However, God's promise to Jacob's children, Paul's kinsmen of the flesh, is an entirely different question.
Did God make a separate promise to Jacob's children than He made to Abraham and Isaac's children, of which Jacob was one? I don't believe so. What do you think God promised to Jacob and his children that didn't also apply to Abraham and Isaac's children? Are you talking about a land promise? If so, please read this...
Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Paul was addressing the Galatian Church, which was predominantly Gentile.
"Physically related" was and is inapplicable and irrelevant.
Unlike man, the devil was obviously created immortal. Therefore, since satan is unable to die, and that man is able to die, it literally means what it says about satan, that he shall be tormented day and night forever and ever. Nowhere in Revelation 20:10 does it ever call that the 2nd death. Nowhere in Revelation 20:11-15 does it ever say that those cast into the LOF shall be tormented day and night forever and ever. Clearly, satan is not present during Revelation 20:11-15. he is already in the LOF when verses 11-15 are meaning. Obviously, verse 10 is not the great white throne judgment. Therefore, if the fate of humans cast into the LOF is the same fate as satan's, John would have said so somewhere in verses 11-15 except he didn't.
IOW, ECT needs verses 11-15 to say something like such, and now there is nothing to dispute-- And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Look at the passage you argue with.
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Can you not see that the passage says---shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb? What then does it mean when the holy angels, and the Lamb, are no longer present? Does it mean the same thing when they are present? Surely no one thinks they will be present forever watching humans being tormented with fire and brimstone.
That verse does not say---and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone NOT in the presence of the holy angels, and NOT in the presence of the Lamb
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
IMO, this---and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb--sounds like this in Ezekiel 38:21---And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone--where that then sounds like Revelation 16:21 to me. And besides, it is not like God does something like this all the time--an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone--as if that is typical for Him to do that all the time. Even in 70 AD He did no such thing as that. Yet His goal was accomplished, regardless.
And if I'm on the right track here, nothing in Ezekiel 38:21 nor Revelation 16:21 leads me to believe that Revelation 20:11-15 is what is in view in these passages I submitted from Ezekiel 38 and Revelation 16. The idea is to interpret Scripture with Scripture, except some don't like that idea if it causes any conflicts with their view. But if it doesn't cause conflicts with their view, now they agree the idea is to interpret Scripture with Scripture.
Last edited:
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Christ is the child of promise, the seed of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob. All the families of the earth are blessed in Him, through faith in Him. Whoever blesses Him will be blessed, and whoever curses Him will be cursed.
Since the days they shouted "Crucify Him!" most of the Jews do not believe. Does the faith of the Jew who repents of unbelief and turns to faith in Christ cover the unbelief of the one who does not?
Did the faith of those of Israel who kept God's election going through their faith in Christ in the first century cover the rejection of those who did not and of all those who since then have not?
God's election and God's salvation is about Jesus. Not about created human beings who reject Him.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 21:8 again calls the lake of fire the second death.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 22:14 mentions the following as existing outside the the holy city:
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Psalm 139:8 says,
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in sheol (hades), behold, thou art there.
Verse 8 "sheol" is translated as "hell" in the KJV (I changed it to the Hebrew and Greek words).
To me this is all a mystery. Why does Revelation 22:15 mention the "dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie" as though they still exist - just not in the holy city?
Maybe everything exists "in the presence of" the Lamb (God) and His holy angels? He is above all things. Does that not mean He cannot see all things?
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Even so, Paul was not addressing God's promise to Israel in that context.
The relevance of physical attributes depends on the question being considered. In Paul's letter to the Galatians, the primary issue he addresses is the role of Christ in our justification. Paul agrees with Peter's view that, although they are not "sinners," they cannot achieve justification apart from Christ. Since justification is based solely on one's relationship with and orientation toward Christ, other human identity markers become irrelevant. Whether a person is circumcised or uncircumcised does not matter. In Christ, there is neither circumcision nor uncircumcision; there is neither male nor female, slave nor free, Jew nor Gentile.
Even so, we would be mistaken to take Paul's argument further than he intended. After all, the one who said that in Christ there is neither male nor female is the same man who said, "I refuse a woman to teach," and "wives should obey their husbands." While physicality is not relevant with regard to the attainment of God's justification, it remains relevant in other areas.
In Paul's epistle to the Romans, he discusses a promise that God made to his physical descendants. He does not suggest that God has dismissed the importance of physical lineage, as it plays a crucial role in the original promise. For example, God commanded that any king of Israel must be a direct descendant of David. Jesus' physical connection to David is a key qualification for his role as the Messiah, as outlined in Romans chapter one. If Jesus were not physically related to David, he would not qualify as the Messiah.
Paul understands that if God fails to keep His promise to His "kinsmen of the flesh," then that promise would be rendered ineffective. Given that physical lineage is a significant aspect of the original promise, Paul needs to explain how God will fulfill His promise despite his teaching that salvation comes through faith rather than through the works of the Law. It would be an error to interpret Paul as claiming, "Salvation is available to anyone, Jew or Gentile, who seeks justification by faith instead of by the works of the Law." While this statement is true, it does not directly address the objection at hand.
The answer lies in the concept of election: who did God choose, and for what purpose did He choose them? The Bible teaches that God chose the descendants of Jacob to be his holy people, choosing them to be distinctively associated with God among all the other peoples of the Earth. So, God chose all of Jacob's descendants to serve that purpose.
The key difference regarding God's promise to save Jacob's descendants once again centers on God's choice. He promised to save Jacob's descendants, and the physical lineage is the focus of this promise. But, as Paul argues, God reserves the right to select whom to save from among that lineage.
Among Jacob's descendants, those who will be saved are the individuals among them whom God has chosen to save. Paul argues, for instance, that God chose to bless Isaac because he was a child of promise. Not all of Jacob's descendants are children of promise.
In conclusion, we make a mistake in understanding Romans 9 through 11 as a repeat of Romans 1 through 8. When Paul says that not all of Israel is Israel, it is a mistake to hear him say, "Israel is now defined as all those whom God has chosen for salvation." That is not his point because in his epistle to the Galatians, Paul associates salvation with God's promise to Abraham, which he points out, came 430 years prior to the covenant at Mt. Sinai. That covenant did not nullify God's promise to Abraham.
But it would be a mistake to think that the covenant at Mt. Sinai was irrelevant or inconsequential. That covenant defined them as a unique people, a people chosen from all the other peoples of the world. The covenants and promises belong to them. Christ came from them. The promise of Salvation was made specifically to them. Romans chapters 9 through 11 set out to answer that question. What is to happen to them?
There were Israelites in the Galatian Church.
So you're claiming that Galatians 4:28 was not addressed to them.
Better tell Paul.
Similar threads
