Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You cannot deceive us with your lies. You are ignoring that scripture teaches that Jesus is both God and man. Unless you differentiate between His deity and His humanity, you can't possibly understand the truth.
Do you believe the lie?
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So correcting the OP regarding the athanasia (immortality) of the Almighty Father as described in 1 Timothy 6:16 “the blessed and only Potentate, whom no man has seen nor can see” it’s important to recognize that the quality of underived immortality is implied in Paul’s words.
At the time Paul wrote this to Timothy, Jesus Christ already possessed immortality, yet this was not inherent, but granted to him by the Father. Jesus made this clear during his earthly ministry when he said, “I live because of the Father” (John 6:57), and again, “As the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself” (John 5:26).
Paul’s declaration in 1 Timothy simply reflects what Jesus himself had already taught: that true, self-existing immortality belongs only to the Father.
At the time Paul wrote this to Timothy, Jesus Christ already possessed immortality, yet this was not inherent, but granted to him by the Father. Jesus made this clear during his earthly ministry when he said, “I live because of the Father” (John 6:57), and again, “As the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself” (John 5:26).
Paul’s declaration in 1 Timothy simply reflects what Jesus himself had already taught: that true, self-existing immortality belongs only to the Father.
Jw's believe Jesus is the first "created being" which does not imply pre-existence. Besides this, Post #415 and 416 quote the other JW doctrines you indeed do believe in. So if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then I regard it as a duck.
You can regard yourself as a pink flamingo for all I care. You propagate the same key false doctrines here that JW's propagate, and you yourself say you believe those doctrines.
You do not believe in the Trinity, therefore you cannot grasp such basic truth. The entire board who believe in the Trinity can grasp this:
Only God has life in Himself. The Word of God had life in Himself before all creation (John 1:4). The Word of God became a man, a human being who is not created, but begotten of God (the Son of God) - and uniquely among human beings, God granted the Man Jesus Christ to have eternal life in Himself - the same eternal life which is in God, the Word which He (God) alone possesses in Himself.
Jesus is the only human being who possesses life in Himself. In Him (Christ) we have life, which is given by God IN CHRIST to those who believe in Christ.
It's written in scripture anyway, so though you quite obviously deny scripture because it negates your false theology based on your false doctrines, you are powerless to change truth.
Jesus Himself is the way, the truth, and the (eternal) life [zoe]. He said this before He died and rose again, because the Word of God through whom and by whom all things were created always was the way, and the truth (the light of men) and the life (John 1:4).
No you misrepresented and continue to misrepresent 1 Timothy 6, as well as the rest of scripture:
In other words, "Scriptures says the following. But I tell you .."
Satan said a similar thing to Eve, because like the devil you do so even while you misrepresent scripture, wanting all to reject the truth with you.
Denying the Trinity, denying that Jesus is God, is not merely a case of having "a different interpretation of scripture".
In the arrogance of your pride you have already shown that you believe that you can "correct" truth and "correct" scripture. But Jesus Christ is Almighty. He is God. Your "corrections" are "corrections" of God and His inspired words in scripture - which you have changed in a number of places in order to make scripture and truth comply with your own theology which is based in your false doctrines.
He is Almighty.
He existed before all things.
All things were created by Him.
Without Him was nothing made that was made.
In Him was and is (eternal) life [zoe].
The above plus a lot more is all written in scripture, and it's talking about Christ. Yet all the above things are attributes of God alone.
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PS95
Well-Known Member
Well, Hiddenthings is not a JW- but a Unitarian. They are not saying the same thing. But they all have a special bond of hatred for the trinity. Uni's are Socinian /Arian combos and everything in between.
(JWs - first angel created -- Michael's life force was put into Mary's ovum- Jesus "perfect" human - did not rise -- Jesus dead forever- Michaels life force went back to heaven for Jehovah to re-create Michael. Do not worship the Lord Jesus-
and... there is so much more wrong with the JW religion beyond that - I could write a book.)
I've asked Matthias numerous times over a year now what it is he believes exactly and get no real replies-- it's like pulling teeth. I think he sounds to be more of Socinian Unitarian. He calls himself a Jewish Monotheist.
Most Messianic Jews accept the trinity.
The Messianics who reject the trinity are legalistic Judaizers - (I recently learned that they reject Paul's writings.)<- Is this you Hiddenthings?
While there are many kinds of Uni's who can figure out what it is they all believe about this topic, since they are all over the place on it and other things- but for the most part it seems that to Uni's-
Jesus had no prior life-
He is merely human-
They "may" says things like Jesus was God in the flesh- by that they mean God was in Christ and I agree with that, but they leave it there. .likening it to how we have God/Christ in us..
Jesus was not the Word of God who became flesh.. (according to most)
Hiddenthings said Jesus became the Word after crucifixion.
Some Uni's say they worship Jesus, some don't.
It would be a good idea to have Hiddenthings lay out just what he/she does believe with CLARITY-- rather than play his/her word games. Because like a JW- they say things that sound similar but they mean something else.. and will not tell you that up front.
PS95
Well-Known Member
I agree, but again I trust that as we heed the Spirit of Christ in us we will not be shaken. (oasis)
I make that distinction because osas-ers seem to think that we have no security. We DO! But it is not of ourselves but in HIM.
Those who believe in Christ and in the scriptures will not be deceived by false teachers and their false doctrines.
Hebrews 1:6 tells us that Jesus is God's firstborn, and verse 8 calls Him God;
and Hebrews 1:1-8 makes sure that we understand that He is indeed God.
1 Corinthians 15:23 tells us that He is the firstfruits of the resurrection of the dead.
Colossians 1:15-19 tells us that the one whom Paul says is the firstfruits of the resurrection of the dead, is God's firstbegotten Son who is before all things, and that by Him all things consist, and that all things were created by Him (by the one who is before all things).
Therefore Colossians 1:15 tells us that Christ Jesus is the firstborn of every created thing, and verse 18 therefore calls Him the firstborn from the dead (because He is before all things, all things were created by Him, and He is God's firstbegotten who took on human flesh, died and rose again from the dead).
Colossians 1:15 tells us that he is "the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature":
Why is He the firstborn of every creature?
It's because:
(A) 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And:
(B) 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the Assembly: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead (and therefore the firsfruits of the resurrection); that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell.
These scriptures have all been twisted by @Hiddenthings in this thread so that he or she can twist the meaning of "firstborn from the dead".
That's what the false teachers that the Bible warns about do, have done, and will continue to do more and more till the day Christ returns.
Copy @Spiritual Israelite (because he posted the nonsense in the above quoted post, to you).
That's what I've been trying to explain to @marks - because the moment you try and explain, the first thing they do is protest that our salvation depends on Christ and not upon anything we do or don't do.
Of course - because He already paid for our salvation. But when you say, "Yes Lord, thank you", that's when He chooses you - when you become one of His chosen ones, one of His elect - whom God foreordained to be saved in this way - because God foreordained for the sons of Adam to be saved in this way.
Doesn't mean no one can fall away from Christ.
PS95
Well-Known Member
Honestly, I just leave it how I stated it. I don't think it's worth arguing over unless they say we can live a life of licentiousness and still be saved. That's a crock. Many osas-ers go there. Charles Stanley for one.
I can deal with the ones who say that person was never truly born again. I'm not going to argue, since I don't know that person. It's just not worth dividing over imho. but if they go down that other road I reject them.
Unfortunately, someone has to fulfill this--those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition(John 17:12). Where Judas is being used as an example of those meant in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, the son of perdition.
A lot of interpreters apparently don't notice all of the following. Some of it they notice, just not all of it.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
'That Wicked', obviously meaning that man of sin, the son of perdition, in verse 3. Look what happens to the son of perdition--whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming
Compare that with this in Revelation 19:21.
Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Therefore, the remnant are not meaning every lost person on the planet when Christ returns. They are meaning the son of perdition, they are among those that the Father gave Christ and has kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition.
Helen
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I’ve been away from here for a long while …
So, I have to firstly say that I have nowhere near caught up on reading all the threads , including this thread .
So I am just jumping in the middle here .
I believe that many people confuse our salvation and our ‘calling and election’ .
Our salvation is secure , our calling and election is still up for grabs …and decided by our daily walk in the Lord.
Each of us have works , which will be proved by fire, of what sort they are , wood , hay, stubble , gold silver and precious stones.
“ Make your calling and election sure .”
As I see it..we are shown angels , archangels , seraphim etc in God kingdom …each has a ministry …what many people hate and refuse, is that we also in the kingdom , will make up many levels.
Just my thoughts …
What a lot of unnecessary noise and distraction from all of you.
Deal with the text lads and ladies!! @PS95 @Zao is life @Spiritual Israelite
1. As David wrote, “He (Jesus) asked life of You (God), and You (God) gave it to him, length of days forever and ever” (Psalm 21:4).
2. Jesus affirmed, “The Father has granted the Son to have life in Himself” (John 5:26).
3. Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life” (John 6:35) and, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father (for Life) except through me” (John 14:6).
Read it carefully and you will see why and how Jesus is the first fruits of them that sleep. You will also see how high God exalted His Son in raising him from the dead and blessing him with Life Eternal. The first of his brothers!
For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he (Jesus) is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying, “I will tell of your name (God's Name) to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.” Hebrews 2:11-12
I have a prophecy confirming this is true
I have the words of Jesus confirming this is true
I have the words of Paul confirming this is true
And I confirm this to be true
Even color coded it for you so as to make unmistakable.
Deal with the text lads and ladies!! @PS95 @Zao is life @Spiritual Israelite
1. As David wrote, “He (Jesus) asked life of You (God), and You (God) gave it to him, length of days forever and ever” (Psalm 21:4).
2. Jesus affirmed, “The Father has granted the Son to have life in Himself” (John 5:26).
3. Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life” (John 6:35) and, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father (for Life) except through me” (John 14:6).
Read it carefully and you will see why and how Jesus is the first fruits of them that sleep. You will also see how high God exalted His Son in raising him from the dead and blessing him with Life Eternal. The first of his brothers!
For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he (Jesus) is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying, “I will tell of your name (God's Name) to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.” Hebrews 2:11-12
I have a prophecy confirming this is true
I have the words of Jesus confirming this is true
I have the words of Paul confirming this is true
And I confirm this to be true
Even color coded it for you so as to make unmistakable.
Sister-n-Christ
Well-Known Member
What many don't realize is, Christ will not let any of his own fall away.
We can think we stepped off and left the faith.
However, God,who was The Christ Jesus, said he will lose not one of us.
God is not a man that he should lie.
This is why the proof text I've presented is to warn people of your error.
You (Jesus) have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.” Heb 1:9.
Jesus owes his existence to a God.
True, Jesus Christ is the first mortal person in this Creation to receive immortality.
Correct, in Jesus all creation is given life and meaning and Paul's exhortation is speaking to the New Creation!
Wow Zao, you keep showing me Christ has a beginning and an end and then now lives forever.
Jesus is not the person being imaged! You do know how a coin is stamped from an original die. Jesus is not the Source Zao - so why keep presenting verses that oppose you beliefs?
I deleted the rest of your nonsense and went straight to the source.
Here is why he is the firstborn from the dead
God through him "made peace by the blood of his cross" Col 1:20.
Work out what this means Zao and you will discover the true Christ...till then you hold a counterfeit.
His own will not fall away because they will abide in the Vine, believing Him that the one in the Vine (who is in the Vine), if he does not remain in the Vine will wither and die - not because Jesus had not paid the same price for their salvation that He paid for those who remain in the Vine, nor because Jesus booted them out or desired their death, but because though they were alive in Christ and were drinking of the water of life, they chose not to continue to abide - and God will never override human choices, because the one who does that will need to ignore the Holy Spirit calling him back and sear his conscience as with a hot iron, and will hide from God, just like Adam did.
That's true - the lies are DONE BY humans who misrepresent Him with doctrines like OSAS.
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You're a false teacher who follows the lies in your own false doctrines and you are completely incapable of warning anyone about what is error and what is not error.
The idea that Christ pre-existed as an angel or as a lesser god is entirely a doctrinal invention... there isn’t a single verse, or even a single word in Scripture, that teaches such a concept.
No, I'm a Christian and my beliefs have been rather well spelled out in this thread.
Correct - Zao tried to force a prior life on the Lord by using 1 Tim 6 which as you know I needed to apply the handbrake rather aggressively. Even the most conservative Trinitarians would never rob the Father of His Sovereign Glory & Power - Zao tried and failed.
Ah, not merely! It's often the strategy of Trinitarians to down play the Lords fleshly origins. The Son of God and the Son of Man is the correct balanced view of Christ
Jesus referred to himself as the "Son of Man" approximately 82 times in the New Testament
How many times does Jesus call himself the Son of God?
How many times does his call himself God the Son?
They "may" says things like Jesus was God in the flesh- by that they mean God was in Christ and I agree with that, but they leave it there. .likening it to how we have God/Christ in us..
Jesus was not the Word of God who became flesh.. (according to most)
No the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
Hiddenthings said Jesus became the Word after crucifixion.
Some Uni's say they worship Jesus, some don't.
"concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord Ro 1:3–4.
PS, When was he declared to be the Son of God?
Why "in" Power?
In an ultimate sense Christ became the Living Word in Flesh (incorruptible) when he was raised from the dead.
If you cannot discern Romans 1:1-3 which is the true Gospel of God, what hope is there for you to discern all that the Bible teaches to be true?
Show me why the Spirit of Holiness declared Jesus to be the Son of God with Power BY his resurrection from the dead and lets see where that takes you.
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I understand that engaging with the text may be difficult, Zao, and that can be frustrating, but reacting this way won’t bring you any closer to truly knowing Christ.
Sister-n-Christ
Well-Known Member
Let me tell you, you think OSAS is a slur. It's not. It's Gospel.
OSAS is the acronym for Eternal Irrevocable Security,Salvation,in Christ. Once Saved Always Saved.
Irrevocable Salvation.
Jesus said,of all the father gives him he will lose none.
That's true.
The parable of the lost sheep is too. That little lamb wandered off. The Shepherd left his flock to find them. And the lamb came home.
Your ideology is not scripture. It is a lie.
Who knows more eternally. Man or God?
No one comes to Jesus unless God leads them. He knew us before the world was created. And he sure knows if we will wander away. If we do,that doesn't mean we were never his.
Though God knows there are those who claim his name but he does not know theirs.
I know your ideology denies eternal security ,Salvation,in Christ. However,you don't need to agree with Scripture for Scripture to be a fact from God.
If we didn't argue against false teachings like yours Christian forums would cease to exist.Maybe we entertain skeptics because we like to read ourselves talk. Or maybe we think we can reach you. Which is absurd. Only God does that.
Either way,it may be all fun and games with sheep for now,but in the twilight of your life you'll regret every word. And if not,once you're gone you'll meet the God you mocked. And answer for every word.
PS95
Well-Known Member
I don't recall speaking about any of that with you.? Not sure what you are talking about.
All that I asked you was if you are a Unitarian. Then, I asked if the Word who became flesh is Jesus--- and your reply after word salad was that He became the Word when he died.
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