Why doesn't your "whole Bible view" include Universalism?

[Eternally Grateful]

Nothing is left to "chance". IMHO
Humankind is too precious to dump the vast majority in the incinerator.

[

Oh I agree,

which is Why Jesus came so that all the world MAY be saved.

But it does not mean the whole world will be saved.

God made a condition. He will not force his salvation on you. If you do not want it. He will grant you your wish (now no one wants hell. But as we know from the word. People hide the truth about hell because they love there sin)

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Here's something I find interesting.

My views on Ultimate Redemption (Universalism) are typically dismissed for not aligning with "a whole Bible view".
Seems that saw should cut both ways.

What happens if your "a whole Bible view" includes my scriptures rather than dismisses them? - Then what?

Romans 5:15-19 NIV
But the gift is not like the trespass.
For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,
how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by
the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin:
The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation,
but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man,
how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of
the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

[

All of the so-called "universalist" passages have a limited definition of the "all" because of their contexts, and there are many passages that describe outer darkness or burning fire, where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth" forever (Gospel of Matthew). That's why I take the whole-Bible approach.

For example, in the Romans 5 passage you quote, the words "many" and "all" are interwoven, while the other passages that I refer to more clearly point to many people ending up in isolation from God (for example, Matthew 15:46. One very good principle of interpretation is to use the clearer passages to interpret the less-clear passages.

 

[RedFan]

Oh I am sorry, Forgive me, This must be a @St. SteVen and @Ritajanice joy thread. They do not want apposing views here.

I do agree. About the pages being ripped out. Bus we must remember, most doctrinal differences are not because we ignore what art of the Bible says so we have to rip them out. It is based on interpretation of certain passages.

The question is. Does part of the Bible contradict itself

It does contradict itself. But on factual issues that do not, in general, detract from the message of Scripture.

 

[St. SteVen]

For example, in the Romans 5 passage you quote, the words "many" and "all" are interwoven...

That's "THE many" and "all".
"the many = all and "all" = all.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

That's why I take the whole-Bible approach.

Why doesn't your "whole Bible view" include Universalism?​

That is the question.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it isn't biblical.

[

 

[JohnDB]

Nothing is left to "chance". IMHO
Humankind is too precious to dump the vast majority in the incinerator.

[

Why?
Why would God think such a thing?

Think of a programmer deleting a line of code he wrote that didn't work appropriately.

 

[Ritajanice]

Look at this also @St. SteVen

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day


And whose to say that those who are dying/ on their death bed ,aren’t being drawn by the Spirit ,to become Born Again..as you well know God draws us by his supernatural power, just as he explained to Nicodemus...you don’t need any Bible for God to draw you to Jesus. My opinion/ belief.

 

[Stash]

This is the problem.
As I said in post #4...

There are three biblical doctrines of the final judgement.
- Damnationism (forever burning hell)
- Annihilationism (complete destruction of the wicked)
- Christian Universalism (Ultimate Redemption of humankind)

All three views are biblical and contradictory.

In this topic, I am asking that Christian Universalism be given its due respect.

[

There are three biblical doctrines of the final judgement.
- Damnationism (blotted out)
- Annihilationism (blotted out)
- Christian Universalism (Another New Age religion with Jesus not God)

Yes, the passages are in the Bible. They do not contradict their selves. Your interpretation is completely false and lame.

 

[St. SteVen]

There are three biblical doctrines of the final judgement.
- Damnationism (blotted out)
- Annihilationism (blotted out)
- Christian Universalism (Another New Age religion with Jesus not God)

Yes, the passages are in the Bible. They do not contradict their selves. Your interpretation is completely false and lame.

Consider this.

Apokatastasis in the Bible​

I thought Apokatastasis was only a theological term from the early church. Now I come to find out that it is in the Bible as a word in the NT Greek text. Thanks to my good friend and dear brother @Chadrho for pointing it out. Here it is. Acts 3:21 NIV Heaven must receive him until the time...

Apokatastasis in the early church​

When many hear about Apokatastasis (the restoration of all things), Universalism, Christian Universalism, Universal Restoration, Universal Reconciliation, Ultimate Redemption, Ultimate Reconciliation, UR... There is an assumption that this is a new idea. Something modern liberal theologians...

[

 

[St. SteVen]

They do not contradict their selves.

That says it all right there. - LOL

[

 

[Jack]

"Why doesn't your "whole Bible view" include Universalism?"

Because it's Satanic! Much like when Satan's messengers say gays are Christians, leading gays to Hell.

 

[St. SteVen]

"Why doesn't your "whole Bible view" include Universalism?"

Because it's Satanic! Much like when Satan's messengers say gays are Christians, leading gays to Hell.

Were you molested as a child?
I don't understand why you carry on and on about this. ???

There is healing available in Jesus' name if that's what you need.

[

 

[Jack]

Were you molested as a child?

No, were you?

I don't understand why you carry on and on about this. ???

It's because Christians defend the Bible! You attack the Bible. Christians try to pull gays out of the fire. I don't recall you trying to pull gays out of the fire! Do you hate gays? I'm here to pull gays out of the fire!

I Cor 6 Gays will burn in Hell forever!

There is healing available in Jesus' name if that's what you need.

It's for us who repent. Gays haven't repented. They would rather be gay than Christian! I knew someone who was gay for decades. Jesus saved Him. He was no longer gay. He preached against Satan's gays.

 

[St. SteVen]

Here's something I find interesting.

My views on Ultimate Redemption (Universalism) are typically dismissed for not aligning with "a whole Bible view".
Seems that saw should cut both ways.

What happens if your "a whole Bible view" includes my scriptures rather than dismisses them? - Then what?

Romans 5:15-19 NIV
But the gift is not like the trespass.
For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,
how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by
the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin:
The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation,
but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man,
how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of
the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

[

 

[Rockerduck]

Studying church history and salvation stories. Pentecost was about the Holy Spirit indwelling one without confession. In the 1800's. Many preachers documented people in the congregation receiving the Holy Spirit jumping up declaring it. There were church councils to discuss the "phenomena" in all the churches. Charles Finney even started the alter call. My Point - Jesus still adds to His church selectively today, by giving the Holy Spirit to one (chosen), spontaneously, when IF in the congregation, they only had to believe to be saved under Universalism.

 

[St. SteVen]

Studying church history and salvation stories. Pentecost was about the Holy Spirit indwelling one without confession. In the 1800's. Many preachers documented people in the congregation receiving the Holy Spirit jumping up declaring it. There were church councils to discuss the "phenomena" in all the churches. Charles Finney even started the alter call. My Point - Jesus still adds to His church selectively today, by giving the Holy Spirit to one (chosen), spontaneously, when IF in the congregation, they only had to believe to be saved under Universalism.

This is where doctrines fail us. Church history and salvation stories reveal that God is not bound to our formulas.
The Apostle Paul did not come to the alter on the road to Damascus. But He did meet Christ there.

- On Pentecost three thousand were baptized. (assuming with manifestations of the Holy Spirit as evidence)
- After that another two thousand were baptized. (assuming with manifestations)
- Then the baptized believers in Samaria showed no manifestations. So, the Apostles laid hands on them.
- Ananias (not an Apostle) laid hands on Saul (Paul) before he was baptized with water.
- In the house of Cornelius the gentile believers manifested the Holy Spirit while Peter was still preaching.
- In Ephesus Paul laid hands on the disciples of Apollos. Then they were water baptized in Jesus' name.

All this illustrates that Jesus was right about the Holy Spirit being like the wind.
We don't know where it comes from, or where it is going. (unpredictable)

In reference to Universalism...
It was a predominant doctrine in the Greek-speaking early church of the east.
Damnationism was the predominant belief in the Latin-speaking church of the west.
From whom we got our Bible. (with expected bias)

[

 

[Rockerduck]

This is where doctrines fail us. Church history and salvation stories reveal that God is not bound to our formulas.
The Apostle Paul did not come to the alter on the road to Damascus. But He did meet Christ there.

- On Pentecost three thousand were baptized. (assuming with manifestations of the Holy Spirit as evidence)
- After that another two thousand were baptized. (assuming with manifestations)
- Then the baptized believers in Samaria showed no manifestations. So, the Apostles laid hands on them.
- Ananias (not an Apostle) laid hands on Saul (Paul) before he was baptized with water.
- In the house of Cornelius the gentile believers manifested the Holy Spirit while Peter was still preaching.
- In Ephesus Paul laid hands on the disciples of Apollos. Then they were water baptized in Jesus' name.

All this illustrates that Jesus was right about the Holy Spirit being like the wind.
We don't know where it comes from, or where it is going. (unpredictable)

In reference to Universalism...
It was a predominant doctrine in the Greek-speaking early church of the east.
Damnationism was the predominant belief in the Latin-speaking church of the west.
From whom we got our Bible. (with expected bias)

[

So, we agree?

 

[St. SteVen]

So, we agree?

I'm not discounting what you wrote. I just have a different perspective.
Between the two of us we pretty much nailed it.

Studying church history and salvation stories. Pentecost was about the Holy Spirit indwelling one without confession. In the 1800's. Many preachers documented people in the congregation receiving the Holy Spirit jumping up declaring it. There were church councils to discuss the "phenomena" in all the churches. Charles Finney even started the alter call. My Point - Jesus still adds to His church selectively today, by giving the Holy Spirit to one (chosen), spontaneously, when IF in the congregation, they only had to believe to be saved under Universalism.

Why would you say that "Pentecost was about the Holy Spirit indwelling one without confession." ???
Peter told them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you... And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
(I understand there is a difference between "repent" and "confession")

Then you made some huge leaps forward in history to a time when Holy Spirit baptism was rare. (lost/neglected)
And then tacked on Universalism at the end as if it was a modern phenomenon. (not so) ???

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

[

 

[Rockerduck]

I'm not discounting what you wrote. I just have a different perspective.
Between the two of us we pretty much nailed it.

Why would you say that "Pentecost was about the Holy Spirit indwelling one without confession." ???
Peter told them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you... And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
(I understand there is a difference between "repent" and "confession")

Then you made some huge leaps forward in history to a time when Holy Spirit baptism was rare. (lost/neglected)
And then tacked on Universalism at the end as if it was a modern phenomenon. (not so) ???

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

[

I mentioned Pentecost because the Holy Spirit came upon the 120 in the upper room at the same time, that is, spontaneously. In the 1800's, the same thing was happening, not only in Churches but in homes and work. This is how the Pentecostal movement started. The documentation of pastors noted the Holy Spirit was happening to these congregants out of nowhere. It is still happening; it happened to me. To my point - Jesus is choosing His elect out of Congregations, and places of work, and home today. So Jesus is calling and choosing. How does universalism figure in against those who are chosen in Jesus?

 

[St. SteVen]

To my point - Jesus is choosing His elect out of Congregations, and places of work, and home today.

I don't connect Holy Spirit baptism as prerequisite to being in the Elect. It's a separate issue. IMO
I think there are many in the Elect who don't have the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
I agree that one has to be part of the Elect to receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
(though it could happen in reverse order)

So Jesus is calling and choosing. How does universalism figure in against those who are chosen in Jesus?

Universalism is the plan for those whom God did not choose to be part of the original Elect.
In Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn...

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father
after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

[