IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[Scott Downey]

See there in Luke 17, Jesus is teaching about the sudden destruction that Paul wrote of at the Day of the Lord

1 Thessalonians 5

New King James Version

​

The Day of the Lord​

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be [a]sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

And why is it happening at night? Well the sun, moon, stars are go dim or dark, so nowhere is the sun shining on the earth at His returning.

Luke 17

34 I tell you, in that night there will be two [j]men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 [k]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

 

[keithr]

Sounds like we agree the ones “taken” in Luke 17 and Matthew 24 are taken to judgment, not raptured to glory.
That alone dismantles the whole Left Behind doctrine.

How can that be? The judgement occurs at the end of the Millenial Age, 1,000 years after Jesus has set up God's kingdom on the earth. Then all of the "dead" (i.e. all those who at that time have not attained eternal life, which is everyone except the resurrected Church), will be judged. Nobody will be taken from the earth during or after the Great Tribulation to be judged, although the whole of the 1,000 years is a judgement 'day', a time of restitution/restoration to perfection and a trial, with the final test and judgement occurring at the end of the 1,000 years. (The second resurrection of all that have died as non-Christians must occur at the beginning of the 1,000 years.)

Revelation 20:7-12 (WEB):

(7) And after the thousand years, Satan will be released from his prison,​

(8) and he will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war; the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.​

(9) They went up over the width of the earth, and surrounded the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. Fire came down out of heaven from God and devoured them.​

(10) The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

(11) I saw a great white throne, and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them.​

(12) I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.​

Now the only thing left is timing — and 1 Thessalonians 4 makes it clear: it’s loud, final, and visible.

It's will not be visible. The dead Christians are not resurrected as humans, they're raised as invisible spirit beings. The Christians alive at that time are changed in a twinkling of an eye to also be invisible spirit beings. Then all those invisible spirit beings, who are now like Jesus in nature (1 John 3:2), will be caught up to meet the invisible Jesus in the atmosphere. Jesus will only be seen by humans after the Tribulation when he comes to establish God's kingdom ("Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things", Acts 3:21).

The loud "shout" and "trumpet" noise occur in heaven when God commands Jesus to return to the earth to collect his bride; they won't necessarily be heard on the earth, it's for Jesus to hear - 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (UASV+):

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.​

(17) Then we who are alive, who remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.​

 

[rebuilder 454]

Luke 17 is about the return of Christ
and we read the same phrasing and message in Matthew 24, which also includes the return of Christ
Not theorizing anything

24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

So in your "fact" of your doctrine, you are theorizing that Before the trib, ( as Jesus says, normal life, activities, commerce, marriage,) that half of a group are killed?
Who are they, these pretrib taken ones?

Why are they taken years ahead of the trib ending ( pretrib)?

 

[rebuilder 454]

See there in Luke 17, Jesus is teaching about the sudden destruction that Paul wrote of at the Day of the Lord

1 Thessalonians 5

New King James Version

​

The Day of the Lord​

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be [a]sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

And why is it happening at night? Well the sun, moon, stars are go dim or dark, so nowhere is the sun shining on the earth at His returning.

Luke 17

34 I tell you, in that night there will be two [j]men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 [k]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Who are those 50% taken?
Why pretrib?

 

[Scott Downey]

So in your "fact" of your doctrine, you are theorizing that Before the trib, ( as Jesus says, normal life, activities, commerce, marriage,) that half of a group are killed?
Who are they, these pretrib taken ones?

Why are they taken years ahead of the trib ending ( pretrib)?

Huh? You are not making any sense to me.
What is with the pretrib mention?
Luke 17 does not say anything about the tribulation.
Why does it have to mention it?

Luke 17 is as a shortened version of Matthew 24
It is more highly focused, less broad explanation of the coming of Christ, the focus is on the sudden destruction of the wicked.

 

[Scott Downey]

It is like you have this broad storyline, and Jesus explores a smaller part of the whole thing in Luke 17.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Huh? You are not making any sense to me.
What is with the pretrib mention?
Luke 17 does not say anything about the tribulation.
Why does it have to mention it?

Luke 17 is as a shortened version of Matthew 24
It is more highly focused, less broad explanation of the coming of Christ, the focus is on the sudden destruction of the wicked.

The analogy Jesus made is historical fact mixed with rapture pretrib ingredients.
Those ingredients are my focus , as was Jesus focus.

You can reframe it.
But those ingredients are still there.
Note the " before the flood" ingredient.
Note the "half taken" ingredients.
Note the normal life SETTING the ones taken are removed in.

Jesus used 2 actual stories.( lot and noah)
In both stories the rapture is pretrib.

But what is the most bizarre elephant in the room, is Jesus saying (in His pretrib 2 examples) to watch and be ready.

Postrib doctrine changes that to the ones taken, "wicked sinners", to watch and be ready.

Or maybe the postribbers are to be ready to passively stay and be passively protected? ??

Just plain silly.

Maybe it really is what Jesus said that one will be taken and the other one left?
Noway is it the group of Earth's population, but a subgroup.
Wow, possibly the church?

Amazing that 7 sentences later in mat 25 the EXACT same group is taken...50%!!!
And that is TO THE MARRIAGE CHAMBER.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I looked more into Matthew 24:40-41 and need to correct myself.........the one taken is taken in judgment as you say....the one left will enter the earthly kingdom

You had it right the first time.
Nobody but the righteous taken preflood
Nobody but the righteous taken preSodom. Nobody but the righteous taken when Jesus was taken to Egypt.

 

[keithr]

The loud "shout" and "trumpet" noise occur in heaven when God commands Jesus to return to the earth to collect his bride; they won't necessarily be heard on the earth, it's for Jesus to hear - 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (UASV+):

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.​

Alternatively, I may have been wrong and the "shout" may be audible on the earth. I say that because the events of Jesus coming for his bride are patterned on the ancient Jewish wedding rituals (or vice versa!). The ritual was:

• There was a betrothal, or commitmant.
• The bridegroom had to pay a purchase price (Jesus' sacrifice of his life).
• Then the bride is set aside - sanctified or set apart, set exclusively for the bridegroom.
• As a symbol of that relationship they would both drink wine.
• The bridegroom departs to his father's house and he would prepare a room addition, that would take some time to construct and arrange for.
• The bride prepares for his return.
• They are committed but not yet married, and the bridegroom is gone for an indeterminant time. The bride does not know when the bridgroom will return. There is no preconditioned event that must take place before he will return.
• When the bridegroom returns there will be a surpise gathering, usually at night.
• The groom comes to take his bride with him. The groom, the best man and other male attendants would leave the father's house and conduct a torch light procession typically to the home of the bride and although the bride was expecting her groom to come she didn't know when, and so as a result the groom's arrival was typically preceded by a shout which forewarned the bride to be prepared for his coming.
• Then there would be the wedding.
• Then there would be a seven day marriage supper.

So in the wedding ritual type there is a shout just before the bridgroom arrives for his bride, so in the antitype the shout as Jesus comes for his bride may well be heard on the earth.

 

[Scott Downey]

These are the same event

Matthew 24
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13
26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His [h]elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Lest anyone think Christ is only gathering His people in Heaven at His 'second coming'
The 4 winds in Matt 24 are of the earth

See, I have heard preterists tell me there is no earthy rapture, but as you can read here, they are wrong again.

These clouds of heaven are spiritual in nature, they are the host of heaven, angels, and living saints in heaven whom God brings with Him at the return of Christ as he DESCENDS from heaven.

 

[keithr]

Jesus returns in two phases - once to fulfill his promises to his bride, the Church, and secondly in power to fulfill all the commitments that God has laid down in both the Old and New Testaments for a kingdom on the earth. These two events are contrasted by function as:

Rapture​	Second Coming​
Translation of believers	No translation involved
Translated saints go to heaven	Translated saints return to earth (with Jesus)
Earth not judged	Earth judged
Imminent, any moment, signless	Follows definite predicted signs
Not in the Old Testament	Predicted in Old Testament
Believers only	Affects everyone on earth
Before the day of wrath	Concludes the day of wrath
No reference to Satan	Satan is bound
He comes for his own	He comes with his own
He comes in the air	He comes to the earth
He claims his bride	He comes with his bride
Only his own will see him	Every eye shall see him
Great Tribulation begins (later)	Millenium begins
Church believers only	OT saved raised later

Christians do not have to suffer under God's wrath - 1 Thessalonians 5:9 (WEB):

(9) For God didn’t appoint us to wrath, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,​

The reason for the Great Tribulation is to get Israel to recognise who their Messiah is. Matthew 23:37-39 (WEB):

(37) “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets, and stones those who are sent to her! How often I would have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you would not!​

(38) Behold, your house is left to you desolate.​

(39) For I tell you, you will not see me from now on, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!’”​

Hosea 5:15 (WEB):

(15) I will go and return to my place, until they acknowledge their offense, and seek my face. In their affliction they will seek me earnestly.”​

 

[Doug]

Believers only

Yes but the rapture is only for the body of Christ

 

[Doug]

Not in the Old Testament

Right it is a mystery revealed by Paul...................[1Co 15:51 KJV] 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

 

[Doug]

He claims his bride

The church the body of Christ is not the bride, believing Israel is.................[Rev 21:9-10 KJV] 9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

 

[keithr]

The church the body of Christ is not the bride, believing Israel is.................[Rev 21:9-10 KJV] 9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

What makes you think that the new Jerusalem represents only "believing Israel"? It says in verse 14 (WEB):

(14) The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb.​

That is referring to the Church - Ephesians 2:19-22 (WEB):

(19) So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,​

(20) being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone;​

(21) in whom the whole building, fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord;​

(22) in whom you also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.​

Revelation 19:7-8 (WEB):

(7) Let’s rejoice and be exceedingly glad, and let’s give the glory to him. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his wife has made herself ready.”​

(8) It was given to her that she would array herself in bright, pure, fine linen: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.​

Paul wrote, 2 Corinthians 11:2 (UASV+):

(2) For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.​

Ephesians 5:23-32 (WEB):

(23) For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the assembly, being himself the savior of the body.​

(24) But as the assembly is subject to Christ, so let the wives also be to their own husbands in everything.​

(25) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the assembly, and gave himself up for it;​

(26) that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of water with the word,​

(27) that he might present the assembly to himself gloriously, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without defect.​

(28) Even so husbands also ought to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself.​

(29) For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourishes and cherishes it, even as the Lord also does the assembly;​

(30) because we are members of his body, of his flesh and bones.​

(31) “For this cause a man will leave his father and mother, and will be joined to his wife. The two will become one flesh.”​

(32) This mystery is great, but I speak concerning Christ and of the assembly.​

 

[Doug]

What makes you think that the new Jerusalem represents only "believing Israel"? It says in verse 14 (WEB):

[Rev 21:2-3 KJV] 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

We the body of Christ are never called his people.............Israel is..................[Hosea 2:23 KJV] 23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to [them which were] not my people, Thou [art] my people; and they shall say, [Thou art] my God.

 

[Doug]

(14) The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb.
That is referring to the Church - Ephesians 2:19-22 (WEB):

(19) So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,(20) being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone;(21) in whom the whole building, fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord;(22) in whom you also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

It doesnt mean its talking about the church the body of Christ
The apostles and prophets could be Peter and the eleven but there is also apostles and prophets in the body of Christ

BUT besides the twelve apostles names in the wall there is also the twelve tribes of Israel.............[Rev 21:12 KJV] 12 And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

 

[Doug]

Paul wrote, 2 Corinthians 11:2 (UASV+):
(2) For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.

Paul is not saying we are the bride......this is just an illustration of their corruption v3

 

[Doug]

(32) This mystery is great, but I speak concerning Christ and of the assembly.

[Eph 5:30, 32 KJV] 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. ... 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Paul is speaking of the body of Christ and how marriage pictures its relationship with Christ..............................[Eph 5:23-24 KJV] 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.

 

[Doug]

You had it right the first time.
Nobody but the righteous taken preflood
Nobody but the righteous taken preSodom. Nobody but the righteous taken when Jesus was taken to Egypt.

Sorry it took so long to respond
You are right but this is a reversal.....those left will enter the kingdom instead of facing judgement