The Most Hated Truth

[nedsk]

Thank you for the welcome.

Yes, I agree—that’s exactly why I shared this on a Christian message board. Lately, I’ve come across more and more people in Christian spaces who deny that we owe a sin debt to God, which is deeply concerning. I wanted to see how others on this message board understand this, since Scripture is clear that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), and that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). The entire foundation of the gospel rests on the truth that Jesus paid the debt we could never repay. Thank you for your response—it's a good point, thank you.

So we owe a sin debt to God, then does that mean his grace is not a free gift? The prodigal son returns home. What debt did he owe to the father?

 

[bdavidc]

So we owe a sin debt to God, then does that mean his grace is not a free gift? The prodigal son returns home. What debt did he owe to the father?

Sin absolutely creates a debt before God, but that debt is not paid by us, it was paid by Jesus Christ. The Bible says, “The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:23). Sin has a cost, and that cost is death, but salvation is not something we work off or earn. It is the free gift of God through faith in Christ.

The Bible makes it clear that we are guilty before God because we have broken His Law (Romans 3:23), and that guilt is like a record of debt we owe. But Colossians 2:14 tells us that Jesus took that record and nailed it to the cross. He didn’t ignore our sin, He paid for it with His own blood.

That’s what makes grace so amazing. It’s not that we don’t owe anything; it’s that Jesus paid everything. If we had to repay the debt ourselves, grace wouldn’t be a gift, it would be wages. But the Bible says salvation is “not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:9). We don’t earn it, we receive it through faith.

As for the prodigal son, notice what he brought home, nothing. He had no money, no merit, just humility and repentance. And the father ran to meet him, embraced him, and restored him, not because the son earned it, but because the father was full of grace. That is exactly how God receives every sinner who repents.

So yes, our sin brings debt, but God’s grace is still free. It cost Jesus everything, but it costs us nothing to receive it, only that we repent and believe the gospel.

 

[Kokyu]

Well, what a terrible place to put yourself as a youth, that your faith in Christ is fully dependent on how others act out their faith.

It's in the nature of youth to have higher expectations of those in church leadership than they should have. And many of these youth, though they had grown up in the Church, were not, I believe, actually saved. They were making up their minds about this very matter, in part on the basis of what they saw - or didn't see - in the lives of deacons, pastors, elders, worship leaders, Sunday School teachers, etc. This may not be an entirely reasonable way to assess the Christian faith itself, but it is certainly not unreasonable to expect Christians to "walk the talk," either.

It's increasingly common, now, in my experience anyway, to hear Christians exempt themselves from criticism on the basis you've used in the quotation above, reversing criticism, even, and making a person's skepticism and disappointment with Church their problem, the consequence of some failing on their part, rather than a problem with the Church (ie. individual Christians).

That to me is a very empty kind of faith to have.

Maybe, but this observation does nothing to quell their skepticism. To them, as they've indicated to me, your response comes off as a sort of gas-lighting: "I'm not the one with the problem, you are."

I have never been one to be influenced in the faith by my peers, and in life generally.
I do not look up to heroes, model my own self after anyone else.

To each their own, I suppose. Is there some obligation others have to do as you have done? If so, wouldn't you be expecting others to do the very thing you refuse to do?

Anyone who does that better be prepared for a fall, because people fail all the time.

Nonetheless, Scripture indicates, again and again, that Christians are to be "salt" and "light," living manifestations of Christ, representatives of him, full of the fruit of the Spirit, holy, loving and wise, to the lost world around them, not just in word, but in deed. (Matt. 5:13-16; 2 Co. 3:2-3; 4:7-11; Ga. 5:22-23; Eph. 5:1-13, etc.). They may not be so, but their lack of perfection in this regard does not exempt them from doing all they can, in the power of the Holy Spirit, to be as much like Christ as possible.

 

[MatthewG]

Yes, some do. Mostly, though, at least among the unsaved, they appear to just ignore this doctrine of the faith. I find that it is professing Christians, actually, who are shying away, more and more, from this truth. A prominent example would be Joel Osteen (and his ilk). In general, though, the Christians around me are profoundly uncomfortable broaching this truth in conversation with one another, let alone the lost.



I'd suggest that sin isn't the corruption of the human heart but the effect of a heart corrupted by the natural selfishness of the unregenerated Adamic nature. All sins are just symptoms of the Old Self (Ro. 6:6) in control of one's mind and heart.



I'd be much more inclined to say that we are, by nature, deeply selfish, which always produces sin. I can't think of a Bible verse that actually says that our nature is one of sin. We have a fleshly/carnal nature, a self-centered, rebellious nature, an Adamic nature, a spiritually-unregenerate nature, but I'm not aware of Scripture that says my nature is sin. Yes, I commit sin, I enact sinful behaviors, and hold sinful thoughts and attitudes, but these are, I think manifestations, or symptoms, of something else, they are "sparks" from the "bonfire" of Self out from under God's control. A car engine is not the exhaust, noise and motion of the car that it produces, right? Though the engine and its effects are very closely related, they aren't identical. Likewise, it seems to me that the "engine" of my self-centered nature produces the "exhaust, noise and motion" of sin, but these effects aren't identical with what has produced them.



Umm... sin is a debt? Scripture says my sins incurs a debt, of sorts, but my sin isn't itself a debt, its disobedience to God.



Submission to God is vital, yes. But He also says to us in His word that, along with faith in Christ as Savior and submission to him as Lord (Ro. 10:9-10), there must also be repentance and confession of our sin. We won't trust in, and submit to, Christ as we should unless and until we first change our minds (repent) about ourselves, our sinfulness, God and our need of a Savior. When we have truly done so, it is natural and necessary to confess, or admit to, our sinful rebelliousness toward God and indicate our wholehearted agreement with the truth of the Gospel (1 Jn. 1:9; Ro. 10:9-10). In consequence of doing these things, submission to God, to Christ, is obvious and natural (and commanded of God, therefore - Ja. 4:6-10; 1 Pe. 5:6; Ro. 6:13-22; Ro. 12:1).

But, you know, in my experience, what primarily makes the Gospel so uninteresting to the lost, and its hard truths doubly offensive to them, is the profound lack of evidence of the supernatural life and work of God in those who claim to be His. I don't mean the hysteria, sensuality and blasphemy of the hyper-charismatics (Todd White, Kenneth Copeland, Mike Bickles, Benny Hinn, etc.), but the radical holiness, peace, love, joy, gentleness, wisdom and grace of the Holy Spirit within them (Ga. 5:22-23; Eph. 5:9; Ja. 3:17-18). There are few things more persuasive of the Christian's claims concerning the Gospel than the supernatural life of Jesus filling them and flowing out of them (Ro. 8:29; 2 Co. 3:18; 4:7-11).

When I worked with Christian youth, years ago now, this was their biggest problem with their faith. They watched adults who claimed to be indwelt by God's Spirit (and professed to have been so for many decades) and saw no evidence of the Spirit's supernatural presence and work in those adults. These "mature" believers were, essentially, just like the unsaved adults in their manner of living, afflicted by the same desires, attitudes, distractions and values of the unsaved world. What disappointment and doubt - and deep cynicism - these youth often took up in the vacuum of concrete evidence of the supernatural life and work of the Spirit in the "senior" (spiritually-speaking) members of the faith. And how reluctant this vacuum made the Christian youth I was working with to share their faith with the lost! It wasn't the hard truth of sin that silenced them but the profound absence of any clear proof of the presence of God within those who had already responded to the Gospel and "walked with God" for decades.

I absolutely agree about selfishness. I know I am selfish. That looks bad, some of the writing I write to some people look bad. But what is bad, but ones perception of what is good or not good for them. Some of the things I say, don't look good. But the truth doesn't ever feel good either. I'm amazed at some peoples they never look in the mirror and realize, their own evil they have inside of them. This is something I am thankful for. Because at one point in time, I was a true murderer in every since of the word because over time I became a misanthrope. But then again, maybe that philosophy still remains with in me sometimes due to my abuse of my own self.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” ~ Romans 3:23

In modern times the most hated truth is Christians refuse to believe they can't live in sin and still be saved.

 

[Kokyu]

That might sound clever, but it’s not biblical. The Bible doesn’t describe sin as just a symptom or byproduct of something else. It says our very nature is sinful apart from Christ. Ephesians 2:3 says we were “by nature the children of wrath.” That’s not just behavior, that’s who we were at the core.

Actually, it is very biblical to recognize that the Old Self (Ro. 6:6) is the Ultimate Source of all our sin, as Paul clearly indicated. And the Old Self, as the Bible plainly describes, is profoundly self-centered, "seeking its own" above all else (Phil. 3:18-19; Ga. 5:19-21; Ro. 8:5-8, etc.).

Ephesians 2:3 doesn't actually say "our very nature is sinful apart from Christ."

Ephesians 2:1-3
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

See? Verse 3 says the unsaved are by "nature" wrathful (Tit. 3:3) and, actually, the word translated "wrath" in the verse may also be translated "impulse" which fits really well with the biblical teaching that a fleshly-minded, unsaved person is acting often on the basis of their fleshly impulses (their "god is their belly" - Phil. 3:18-19). We all, prior to being saved, were by nature "children of (fleshly) impulse." This seems pretty obvious to me, the impulses of our flesh being many and necessary (to eat, drink, sleep, procreate, etc.). But such impulses aren't necessarily/intrinsically evil, given to us by God as they are.

Even if we all are, apart from Christ, "naturally wrathful children" this fact doesn't necessarily entail an intrinsic sinfulness. Not all wrath is unjustified, or evil, as God Himself demonstrates (Jn. 3:36; Ro. 2:5). Like our fleshly impulses, our emotions and attitudes, unregulated by God, inevitably grow exaggerated and distorted. But though the exaggeration/distortion is wrong, the impulses, emotions and attitudes themselves in proper, God-confined proportion, may be entirely right and good.

And so, Paul doesn't actually write of our "natural sinfulness" which implies an intrinsic, congenital wickedness, but of the result of our natural (and necessary) self-centeredness left unregulated by the Holy Spirit. I say this self-centeredness is necessary because if we don't attend to our natural impulses to, say, eat, drink, and sleep, we will soon expire; we have to be self-interested, then, regarding these things if we are to survive. It is in our nature, though, to exaggerate and distort that necessary self-interest and our natural, God-given, fleshly impulses. And when we do, then we are guilty of sin. Of course, this means the newborn is innocent of sin, though with the innate inclination toward it.

Anyway, as I pointed out, there is no "our very nature is sinful" in what Paul wrote in the Ephesians 2 passage, nor is it implied, as far as I can see.

Psalm 51:5 says, “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.” That means sin isn’t just something we pick up along the way, it’s wired into us from the start.

No, this is a Calvinist distortion of what David wrote, I'm afraid.

Psalm 51:5
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

David here speaks of two things: the manner in which he was "brought forth" and the character of his mother at his conception. He says nothing about himself and his intrinsic nature in the verse above. The manner in which he was brought forth was "in iniquity" and the character of his mother was "in sin," but David nowhere in this verses says, or implies, that he was himself sinful as a newborn.

Romans 7:18 says, “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing.” You can’t separate the engine from the exhaust like you’re trying to do here. The Bible doesn’t make that distinction.

I don't have to do any separating, I just read Scripture as its given without any Calvinist distortion and see very plainly what I've pointed out. If you want to assert from Romans 7:18 that Paul was teaching a Gnostic view of his body (his flesh) as intrinsically evil, you'll have to explain how, without Paul's mind and soul, his body was sinful.

When Paul was asleep, was his body doing evil things? When Paul had been stoned in Iconium, for instance, and was lying unconscious upon the ground, was his body enacting evil behavior, fornicating, perhaps, or robbing folks who passed by, or murdering someone in a dark alley? No, only when Paul was conscious, when his mind and soul were awake and actively in control of his body, would his body enact anything sinful. What's the "no good thing" dwelling in Paul's flesh, then? Apart from the consciousness called "Paul" his flesh, his body, would be just a completely inert, morally-neutral lump of tissue.

In any case, so long as Paul was a not under the control of the Holy Spirit (Ro. 8:5-8), he would be inclined to self-centeredness, to self-will that inevitably grows exaggerated and distorted, producing sin. This is the Adamic nature, the spiritually-unregenerated, self-willed, selfish nature we all possess apart from the authority, direction and regulation of God. Without His control, we become progressively overly selfish, overly self-centered and this results in sin. This sin, though, is an effect of our selfish nature, not that nature itself.

What’s not biblical in your response is the idea that the lost are uninterested in the gospel mainly because they don’t see enough supernatural behavior in Christians. That’s not what Scripture teaches.

You're "tilting at" your own Strawman here. Where did I write what you imply I did in this quotation? I don't see in any of my posts where I wrote, "The lost are uninterested in the Gospel mainly because they don't see enough supernatural behavior in Christians," nor do I imply this. Instead, I wrote more modestly that, in my experience, the "biggest problem" the Christian youth had with the spiritual leaders in their churches was a lack of supernatural evidence of the indwelling Holy Spirit in their living. I didn't say anything about the lost generally, nor about their main reason for being disinterested in the Gospel.

It is biblical to call believers to walk in holiness and show the fruit of the Spirit. But it’s not biblical to imply that unbelievers would flock to Christ if only Christians lived better. That puts the blame for unbelief on us, not on the sinner’s rebellion. The Word of God is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16), not our performance.

See above. I never wrote of unbelievers generally or their primary reason for rejecting the Gospel.

How interesting it is, though, to see how quickly you reject the idea that Christians bear no blame for the lost's rejection of the Gospel. See my post to @Scott Downey. Some Christians sure like to point the finger at the unsaved. But how they bristle when the finger is pointed at them!

 

[Behold]

The most "hated Truth".......is Jesus.

He is "The Truth"......John 14:6, and He was so hated that they hung Him on The Cross for being : GOOD and True.

This shows you clearly just how evil is the = Devil's world.

 

[nedsk]

Sin absolutely creates a debt before God, but that debt is not paid by us, it was paid by Jesus Christ. The Bible says, “The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:23). Sin has a cost, and that cost is death, but salvation is not something we work off or earn. It is the free gift of God through faith in Christ.

The Bible makes it clear that we are guilty before God because we have broken His Law (Romans 3:23), and that guilt is like a record of debt we owe. But Colossians 2:14 tells us that Jesus took that record and nailed it to the cross. He didn’t ignore our sin, He paid for it with His own blood.

That’s what makes grace so amazing. It’s not that we don’t owe anything; it’s that Jesus paid everything. If we had to repay the debt ourselves, grace wouldn’t be a gift, it would be wages. But the Bible says salvation is “not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:9). We don’t earn it, we receive it through faith.

As for the prodigal son, notice what he brought home, nothing. He had no money, no merit, just humility and repentance. And the father ran to meet him, embraced him, and restored him, not because the son earned it, but because the father was full of grace. That is exactly how God receives every sinner who repents.

So yes, our sin brings debt, but God’s grace is still free. It cost Jesus everything, but it costs us nothing to receive it, only that we repent and believe the gospel.

So if Jesus paid the debt there is no debt. Unless of course continued sin on our part creates a new debt which must be repaid.