The Roman Catholic Church Infallibility Thread

[GracePeace]

This thread is for sharing Roman Catholic dogmas that are clearly debunked, which, in turn, debunk their claims of infallibility.

As for myself, there are three I know of :

1. The Marian dogmas rest on the faulty assumption of Mary as the New Eve (eg, Mary has to be sinless, because Eve had been sinless prior to her and Adam's having eaten from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, according to Pope Pius IX's Papal Bull Ineffabilis Deus)--Scripturally, only the Church could be the New Eve, since Christ is the New Adam, and the Church is both Christ's body and bride, just as Eve was Adam's own body and bride ("bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh"), and no less than Paul says that it is the Church which corresponds to Eve (2 Co 11:3).

2. The Catholic Church teaches dogmatically (Canon 1191 §1) that it is perfectly acceptable to, in some cases, take vows; however, Jesus says taking vows is "of the evil one" (Mt 5), and James (Ja 5), echoing Jesus, commands, "take no vow at all, lest you fall under condemnation".

3. I learned, from Jay Dyer, that their dogma (Lumen Gentium, para. 16; Nostra Aetate, para. 3; CCC para. 841) is that Muslims worship the same God as they do, and that Hindus have "recourse" (access) to God, whereas Jesus says He is the way, the Truth, and the life, and that no one goes to the Father except by Him.

 

[nedsk]

This thread is for sharing Roman Catholic dogmas that are clearly debunked, which, in turn, debunk their claims of infallibility.

As for myself, there are three I know of :

1. The Marian dogmas rest on the faulty assumption of Mary as the New Eve (eg, Mary has to be sinless, because Eve had been sinless prior to her and Adam's having eaten from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, according to Pope Pius IX's Papal Bull Ineffabilis Deus)--Scripturally, only the Church could be the New Eve, since Christ is the New Adam, and the Church is both Christ's body and bride, just as Eve was Adam's own body and bride ("bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh"), and no less than Paul says that it is the Church which corresponds to Eve (2 Co 11:3).

2. The Catholic Church teaches dogmatically (Canon 1191 §1) that it is perfectly acceptable to, in some cases, take vows; however, Jesus says taking vows is "of the evil one" (Mt 5), and James (Ja 5), echoing Jesus, commands, "take no vow at all, lest you fall under condemnation".

3. I learned, from Jay Dyer, that their dogma (Lumen Gentium, para. 16; Nostra Aetate, para. 3; CCC para. 841) is that Muslims worship the same God as they do, and that Hindus have "recourse" (access) to God, whereas Jesus says He is the way, the Truth, and the life, and that no one goes to the Father except by Him.

What does infallibility mean?

 

[GracePeace]

What does infallibility mean?

The Roman Catholic Church says it cannot err in teaching, among other things, dogma.

 

[nedsk]

The Roman Catholic Church says it cannot err in teaching, among other things, dogma.

Citation please.

 

[GracePeace]

Citation please.

Infallibility of the Pope
Papal infallibility is a Catholic dogma that asserts the Pope, when speaking ex cathedra (from the chair) on matters of faith and morals, is preserved from error by the Holy Spirit. This doctrine, formally defined at the First Vatican Council in 1870, doesn't mean the Pope is incapable of sin or error in all his pronouncements, but rather, that he is protected from error when making definitive, binding declarations on faith and morals for the entire Church.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• • Ex Cathedra:
    This Latin term, meaning "from the chair," refers to specific circumstances when the Pope is speaking with the full weight of his authority as the successor of St. Peter and head of the Church.

• Conditions for Infallibility:
  For a papal statement to be considered infallible, it must meet several criteria:
  • • It must be a definitive teaching on faith or morals.
      

• It must be intended to be binding on the universal Church.

• It must be made by the Pope acting in his official capacity as pastor and teacher of all Christians, not as a private individual.

• Not Absolute Perfection:
  Papal infallibility does not mean the Pope is sinless or incapable of making mistakes in other areas of life, like personal judgments or scientific opinions.

• Limited Scope:
  It applies specifically to matters of faith and morals, and it does not extend to other areas like politics or economics, even if those areas involve moral questions.

• One Instance in Recent History:
  The most recent example of a papal pronouncement considered to be ex cathedra is Pope Pius XII's declaration of the Assumption of Mary as dogma in 1950.

• Not a New Doctrine:
  While defined in 1870, the concept of papal infallibility is rooted in earlier Church teachings and interpretations of Scripture, particularly the promises of Jesus to St. Pete

Infallibility of the Magisterium :
1. What is the Magisterium?

• The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Catholic Church, primarily exercised by the Pope and bishops in communion with him.

• It's responsible for authentically interpreting the Word of God (Scripture and Tradition) and guiding the faithful in matters of faith and morals.

2. What does "infallibility" mean in this context?

• Infallibility, when applied to the Magisterium, doesn't mean the Pope or bishops are personally incapable of error in all aspects of their lives.
• It means that when they teach definitively on matters of faith and morals, they are preserved from error by the Holy Spirit.

3. How is infallibility exercised?

• Infallibility is exercised in specific circumstances, primarily through the Pope when he speaks ex cathedra (from the chair, meaning with supreme authority) on faith and morals.

• It can also be exercised by an Ecumenical Council, when its definitions are accepted by the Pope.
  
  
• The "ordinary and universal Magisterium," which refers to the teachings consistently held by the Pope and bishops throughout history, is also considered infallible.

4. What is the basis for this belief?

• Catholics believe that Jesus promised to protect his Church from error, particularly in matters of faith and morals, as seen in biblical passages like Matthew 16:18 and Luke 22:32.

• The Church's understanding of its own infallibility has developed over time, with formal declarations like the one at the First Vatican Council in 1870.

5. Infallibility does not mean...

• Personal impeccability:
  It doesn't mean those teaching are sinless or incapable of personal error.

• Every statement is infallible:
  Only those teachings that meet specific criteria (e.g., ex cathedra pronouncements, definitions of ecumenical councils) are considered infallible.
• Inspiration:
  It's not the same as the inspiration of the biblical authors, meaning the Church is not receiving new divine revelations.
• Absolute certainty of the process:
  The arguments or motives behind a teaching are not guaranteed to be infallible, just the definitive result itself.
  

 

[nedsk]

Infallibility of the Pope
Papal infallibility is a Catholic dogma that asserts the Pope, when speaking ex cathedra (from the chair) on matters of faith and morals, is preserved from error by the Holy Spirit. This doctrine, formally defined at the First Vatican Council in 1870, doesn't mean the Pope is incapable of sin or error in all his pronouncements, but rather, that he is protected from error when making definitive, binding declarations on faith and morals for the entire Church.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• • Ex Cathedra:
    This Latin term, meaning "from the chair," refers to specific circumstances when the Pope is speaking with the full weight of his authority as the successor of St. Peter and head of the Church.
• Conditions for Infallibility:
  For a papal statement to be considered infallible, it must meet several criteria:
  • • It must be a definitive teaching on faith or morals.
• It must be intended to be binding on the universal Church.
• It must be made by the Pope acting in his official capacity as pastor and teacher of all Christians, not as a private individual.
• Not Absolute Perfection:
  Papal infallibility does not mean the Pope is sinless or incapable of making mistakes in other areas of life, like personal judgments or scientific opinions.
• Limited Scope:
  It applies specifically to matters of faith and morals, and it does not extend to other areas like politics or economics, even if those areas involve moral questions.
• One Instance in Recent History:
  The most recent example of a papal pronouncement considered to be ex cathedra is Pope Pius XII's declaration of the Assumption of Mary as dogma in 1950.
• Not a New Doctrine:
  While defined in 1870, the concept of papal infallibility is rooted in earlier Church teachings and interpretations of Scripture, particularly the promises of Jesus to St. Pete

Infallibility of the Magisterium :
1. What is the Magisterium?

• The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Catholic Church, primarily exercised by the Pope and bishops in communion with him.
• It's responsible for authentically interpreting the Word of God (Scripture and Tradition) and guiding the faithful in matters of faith and morals.

2. What does "infallibility" mean in this context?

• Infallibility, when applied to the Magisterium, doesn't mean the Pope or bishops are personally incapable of error in all aspects of their lives.
• It means that when they teach definitively on matters of faith and morals, they are preserved from error by the Holy Spirit.

3. How is infallibility exercised?

• Infallibility is exercised in specific circumstances, primarily through the Pope when he speaks ex cathedra (from the chair, meaning with supreme authority) on faith and morals.
• It can also be exercised by an Ecumenical Council, when its definitions are accepted by the Pope.
  
  
• The "ordinary and universal Magisterium," which refers to the teachings consistently held by the Pope and bishops throughout history, is also considered infallible.

4. What is the basis for this belief?

• Catholics believe that Jesus promised to protect his Church from error, particularly in matters of faith and morals, as seen in biblical passages like Matthew 16:18 and Luke 22:32.
• The Church's understanding of its own infallibility has developed over time, with formal declarations like the one at the First Vatican Council in 1870.

5. Infallibility does not mean...

• Personal impeccability:
  It doesn't mean those teaching are sinless or incapable of personal error.
• Every statement is infallible:
  Only those teachings that meet specific criteria (e.g., ex cathedra pronouncements, definitions of ecumenical councils) are considered infallible.
• Inspiration:
  It's not the same as the inspiration of the biblical authors, meaning the Church is not receiving new divine revelations.
• Absolute certainty of the process:
  The arguments or motives behind a teaching are not guaranteed to be infallible, just the definitive result itself.

Here is what matters most

"This doctrine, formally defined at the First Vatican Council in 1870, doesn't mean the Pope is incapable of sin or error in all his pronouncements, but rather, that he is protected from error when making definitive, binding declarations on faith and morals for the entire Church."

In over 2,000 years how many times has a poor spoken ex cathedra?!

 

[GracePeace]

Here is what matters most

"This doctrine, formally defined at the First Vatican Council in 1870, doesn't mean the Pope is incapable of sin or error in all his pronouncements, but rather, that he is protected from error when making definitive, binding declarations on faith and morals for the entire Church."

In over 2,000 years how many times has a poor spoken ex cathedra?!

Dogmas fall under "infallibility".

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

The Roman Catholic Church Infallibility Thread

Title should read: The Roman Catholic Church Fallibility Thread

Dogmas fall under "infallibility".

Their doctrine is not infallible as they claim

Infallible means "Incapable of error in expounding doctrine on faith or morals"

So you might want to update the title because the current title suggests catholic doctrine is perfect and it definitely ain't that.

 

[nedsk]

Dogmas fall under "infallibility".

No they don't. How many times in 2000+ years has the Pope spoken in ex cathdrea? I'll just copy and paste the question until you answer. You people just spew

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

How many times in 2000+ years has the Pope spoken

How many times have all the popes contradicted God's Word proving they are ignorant of God's Word and do not speak for the Lord?

Many times, as in each time any of them said something

 

[GracePeace]

No they don't. How many times in 2000+ years has the Pope spoken in ex cathdrea? I'll just copy and paste the question until you answer. You people just spew

Yeah, dogmas related to faith and morals are "infallible".
I didn't say I'm disproving Papal Infallibility, necessarily, just the infallibility claim of your Church on dogmas related to faith and morals, and I gave the examples of their dogmas where they erred.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Yeah, dogmas related to faith and morals are "infallible".

You're saying they are perfection and without an error?

That's what infallible actually means, Incapable of error

That's definitely NOT the catholic religion

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah, dogmas related to faith and morals are "infallible".
I didn't say I'm disproving Papal Infallibility, necessarily, just the infallibility claim of your Church on dogmas related to faith and morals, and I gave the examples of their dogmas where they erred.

Hi GracePeace
@nedsk is correct.
Infallibility refers to statements made by the Pope ex-cathedra.

This means statements pertaining to faith SPEAKING FROM THE CHAIR,,,or, the office of Pope.

Popes have made many mistakes in their comments...I give you Pope Francis, who left the CC in shambles and divided.

If you want to say that some dogma are incorrect...the title of this thread should be changed to something like:
INCORRECT DOCTRINE/DOGMA OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

That would focus better on what I THINK you're trying to get at.


For any interested:

What Does the Term 'Ex Cathedra' Mean?

Ex cathedra is a Latin phrase which means "from the chair." Read more about it here from Catholic Answers.

www.catholic.com

 

[GodsGrace]

You're saying they are perfection and without an error?

That's what infallible actually means, Incapable of error

That's definitely NOT the catholic religion

Big Boy
NO denomination is perfect.

I have always wondered why the CC is so disliked.
After watching YouTube for a few years now...I can see why.
It is very much preached against.

Perhaps we could preach against other glaring mistakes denominations teach?
God is no respector of persons...
but we sure are respectors of denominations!

 

[GodsGrace]

Infallibility of the Pope
Papal infallibility is a Catholic dogma that asserts the Pope, when speaking ex cathedra (from the chair) on matters of faith and morals, is preserved from error by the Holy Spirit. This doctrine, formally defined at the First Vatican Council in 1870, doesn't mean the Pope is incapable of sin or error in all his pronouncements, but rather, that he is protected from error when making definitive, binding declarations on faith and morals for the entire Church.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• • Ex Cathedra:
    This Latin term, meaning "from the chair," refers to specific circumstances when the Pope is speaking with the full weight of his authority as the successor of St. Peter and head of the Church.
• Conditions for Infallibility:
  For a papal statement to be considered infallible, it must meet several criteria:
  • • It must be a definitive teaching on faith or morals.
• It must be intended to be binding on the universal Church.
• It must be made by the Pope acting in his official capacity as pastor and teacher of all Christians, not as a private individual.
• Not Absolute Perfection:
  Papal infallibility does not mean the Pope is sinless or incapable of making mistakes in other areas of life, like personal judgments or scientific opinions.
• Limited Scope:
  It applies specifically to matters of faith and morals, and it does not extend to other areas like politics or economics, even if those areas involve moral questions.
• One Instance in Recent History:
  The most recent example of a papal pronouncement considered to be ex cathedra is Pope Pius XII's declaration of the Assumption of Mary as dogma in 1950.
• Not a New Doctrine:
  While defined in 1870, the concept of papal infallibility is rooted in earlier Church teachings and interpretations of Scripture, particularly the promises of Jesus to St. Pete

Infallibility of the Magisterium :
1. What is the Magisterium?

• The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Catholic Church, primarily exercised by the Pope and bishops in communion with him.
• It's responsible for authentically interpreting the Word of God (Scripture and Tradition) and guiding the faithful in matters of faith and morals.

2. What does "infallibility" mean in this context?

• Infallibility, when applied to the Magisterium, doesn't mean the Pope or bishops are personally incapable of error in all aspects of their lives.
• It means that when they teach definitively on matters of faith and morals, they are preserved from error by the Holy Spirit.

3. How is infallibility exercised?

• Infallibility is exercised in specific circumstances, primarily through the Pope when he speaks ex cathedra (from the chair, meaning with supreme authority) on faith and morals.
• It can also be exercised by an Ecumenical Council, when its definitions are accepted by the Pope.
  
  
• The "ordinary and universal Magisterium," which refers to the teachings consistently held by the Pope and bishops throughout history, is also considered infallible.

4. What is the basis for this belief?

• Catholics believe that Jesus promised to protect his Church from error, particularly in matters of faith and morals, as seen in biblical passages like Matthew 16:18 and Luke 22:32.
• The Church's understanding of its own infallibility has developed over time, with formal declarations like the one at the First Vatican Council in 1870.

5. Infallibility does not mean...

• Personal impeccability:
  It doesn't mean those teaching are sinless or incapable of personal error.
• Every statement is infallible:
  Only those teachings that meet specific criteria (e.g., ex cathedra pronouncements, definitions of ecumenical councils) are considered infallible.
• Inspiration:
  It's not the same as the inspiration of the biblical authors, meaning the Church is not receiving new divine revelations.
• Absolute certainty of the process:
  The arguments or motives behind a teaching are not guaranteed to be infallible, just the definitive result itself.

Great post GracePeace!

Sorry I didn't see it before I posted my link just above.

 

[nedsk]

How many times have all the popes contradicted God's Word proving they are ignorant of God's Word and do not speak for the Lord?

Many times, as in each time any of them said something

Can you people answer the question of not? In 2000+ years how many times has the Pope spok n in ex cathedra. You people spew garbage but you never actually engage. I have so.little.regard for you people. I'm as nice as I am to you because I feel bad for how far astray you've been led.

 

[GracePeace]

Hi GracePeace
@nedsk is correct.
Infallibility refers to statements made by the Pope ex-cathedra.

This means statements pertaining to faith SPEAKING FROM THE CHAIR,,,or, the office of Pope.

Popes have made many mistakes in their comments...I give you Pope Francis, who left the CC in shambles and divided.

If you want to say that some dogma are incorrect...the title of this thread should be changed to something like:
INCORRECT DOCTRINE/DOGMA OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

That would focus better on what I THINK you're trying to get at.


For any interested:

What Does the Term 'Ex Cathedra' Mean?

Ex cathedra is a Latin phrase which means "from the chair." Read more about it here from Catholic Answers.

www.catholic.com

Yeah, the Marian dogma of the immaculate conception was declared ex-cathedra--that doctrine rests on the foundation of Mary as the New Eve, but Mary is not the New Eve.

 

[GodsGrace]

How many times have all the popes contradicted God's Word proving they are ignorant of God's Word and do not speak for the Lord?

Many times, as in each time any of them said something

Big Boy....
Let me assure you of this:
If it were not for the CC, which kept gnosticism, arianism, and other isms out of the church at the time,
we would not be here discussing biblical matters.

 

[GracePeace]

Can you people answer the question of not? In 2000+ years how many times has the Pope spok n in ex cathedra. You people spew garbage but you never actually engage. I have so.little.regard for you people. I'm as nice as I am to you because I feel bad for how far astray you've been led.

Go make a thread about it; I'll be waiting on MY thread to hear discussion on MY topic.
Stop speaking garbage, engage the topic.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah, the Marian dogma of the immaculate conception was declared ex-cathedra--that doctrine rests on the foundation of Mary as the New Eve, but Mary is not the New Eve.

I've considered the IC a lot and have come to believe that it most probably is true.
It seems logical to me that God would want The Son to be in a body that was pure.
Whether or not it remained pure, I have no opinion on.
Also, the assumption seems a bit far off to me.

Haven't thought much about the "new Eve" either.
So much other stuff to know about Christianity.

I DO believe she is the new ark of the covenant.
What do you think?

What was in the ark.....
Ten Commandments, inscribed on stone tablets.
Aaron's rod, which had blossomed and produced almonds.
Manna.

Mary carried the word of God...the 10 Commandments but written on our heart.
The rod symbolized priesthood. Jesus is our High Priest.
Jesus is the food from heaven that lasts forever and not for just one day.