Mary as New Eve

[GodsGrace]

The Catholic Church is closer to perfect than anything else we have.

The current problem with the Catholic church is two fold in my opinion. 1) Catholics are poorly catechized. This is a result of the perverted interpretations of Vatican II. We went through "reform" years but things are shifting. If you're interested there's a great book "Infiltration" that reveals the plan to destroy the church from within. 2) As Fulton Sheen has said, "There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church." I would bet my mortgage money that every non Catholic Christian has been told at least a thousand times that Catholics do not worship Mary but the very first thing they say is, "you worship Mary." Like you with "you people" when I hear someone say, "Catholics worship Mary" I stop listening.

Agreed on all of the above.
I'm waiting to see what this Pope does.
Not sure yet.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, but I thought we were looking at "types" here. Thought you were saying Eve can't be an antitype for the church because she was disobedient....did I misunderstand you?

Yes Lizbeth. You did misunderstand me. No harm done.
I did say at the beginning that I'm not familiar with all this and am reading along basically to learn something new.
Can't really add too much, but I'm thinking !!

 

[Lizbeth]

Very little is written about Mary, so I don't know how she could be an example to me.
Oh, she received the Word?
So I am to receive the Word?
Was that something I needed to learn from Mary?
I mean, the whole thing is ridiculous.

Is Christ being formed in us? We follow the same pattern as she. And it is God-glorifying when we see it, how perfectly everything in His word lines up. But I wouldn't say it is a life or death necessity, and God can use different scriptures to convey the same truth to different people.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Do you or @BreadOfLife agree with the OP that the idea of Mary being the new Eve was used to support doctrine about Mary?
(I've never heard of this).

The idea that Mary is the New Eve is a belief that goes back ALL the way to the Early Church

In John’s Gospel, Jesus never refers to his mother as “Mother” (John 2:4, 19:26). Whenever He addresses his mother, he calls her “Woman”. This correlates directly to the Woman in Gen. 3:15 and in Rev. 12.

Jesus defeats death on Calvary and fulfills the prophecy in Gen. 3:15 about the “offspring of the woman”. Mary is present at the foot of the cross while this is happening - and what does Jesus call her in John 19:26? He calls her “WOMAN”, because the prophecy about the head of the serpent being crushed in Genesis is taking place right there on Calvary.

Justin Martyr
“Christ became a man by a virgin to overcome the disobedience caused by the serpent …For Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent, and bore disobedience and death.
But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the powers of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her would be called the Son of God. And she replied: ‘Be it done unto me according to thy word.” (Dialogue with Trypho 41 [A.D. 155]).

Ireneus
“Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying: “Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.”
Eve, however, was disobedient; and when yet a virgin, she did not obey…. having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race;
so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race….
Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary.
What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith.” (Against Heresies 1:10 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian
“it was while Eve was still a virgin that the word of the devil crept in to erect an edifice of death. Likewise, through a Virgin, the Word of God was introduced to set up a structure of life. Thus, what had been laid waste in ruin by this sex, was by the same sex re-established in salvation. Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which the one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight.” (On The Flesh of Christ 203–206 AD)

From this you can see that the idea of Mary as “the mother of all living in Christ” was something that the Church interpreted from the Scriptures from the very beginning, and would not have been alien to a first century reader at all - especially if they had John’s Gospel in front of them.

 

[Lizbeth]

The Catholic Church is closer to perfect than anything else we have.

Oh dear, no. For a very long time I wasn't sure how to categorize the Catholic church....was it Christian or a Christian hybrid, or does God accept it as being His...? I just didn't know how to view it. Finally the answer came........a revelation that the ruling Spirit over the Catholic church is not the HOLY Spirit, but another spirit that is not of God. It's very important for believers to be unequivocal in our understanding of this.

 

[GracePeace]

Is Christ being formed in us? We follow the same pattern as she. And it is God-glorifying when we see it, how perfectly everything in His word lines up. But I wouldn't say it is a life or death necessity, and God can use different scriptures to convey the same truth to different people.

Literally every person in the Bible had to receive God's Word and obey it. Mary is not anomalous in that regard. I really don't get the drive to make hay about her. It is idolatry.

 

[GracePeace]

The idea that Mary is the New Eve is a belief that goes back ALL the way to the Early Church

In John’s Gospel, Jesus never refers to his mother as “Mother” (John 2:4, 19:26). Whenever He addresses his mother, he calls her “Woman”. This correlates directly to the Woman in Gen. 3:15 and in Rev. 12.

Jesus defeats death on Calvary and fulfills the prophecy in Gen. 3:15 about the “offspring of the woman”. Mary is present at the foot of the cross while this is happening - and what does Jesus call her in John 19:26? He calls her “WOMAN”, because the prophecy about the head of the serpent being crushed in Genesis is taking place right there on Calvary.

Justin Martyr
“Christ became a man by a virgin to overcome the disobedience caused by the serpent …For Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent, and bore disobedience and death.
But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the powers of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her would be called the Son of God. And she replied: ‘Be it done unto me according to thy word.” (Dialogue with Trypho 41 [A.D. 155]).

Ireneus
“Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying: “Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.”
Eve, however, was disobedient; and when yet a virgin, she did not obey…. having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race;
so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race….
Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary.
What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith.” (Against Heresies 1:10 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian
“it was while Eve was still a virgin that the word of the devil crept in to erect an edifice of death. Likewise, through a Virgin, the Word of God was introduced to set up a structure of life. Thus, what had been laid waste in ruin by this sex, was by the same sex re-established in salvation. Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which the one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight.” (On The Flesh of Christ 203–206 AD)

From this you can see that the idea of Mary as “the mother of all living in Christ” was something that the Church interpreted from the Scriptures from the very beginning, and would not have been alien to a first century reader at all - especially if they had John’s Gospel in front of them.

Yeah, I've already presented my arguments for why it is the Church who would be the New Eve--you're free to interact with my arguments.

 

[GracePeace]

The idea that Mary is the New Eve is a belief that goes back ALL the way to the Early Church

In John’s Gospel, Jesus never refers to his mother as “Mother” (John 2:4, 19:26). Whenever He addresses his mother, he calls her “Woman”. This correlates directly to the Woman in Gen. 3:15 and in Rev. 12.

LOL Jesus also calls the Samaritan woman "woman" (Jn 4)--is she ANOTHER "New Eve" just because of that?
How many "New Eve"s do you need?

 

[nedsk]

Very little is written about Mary, so I don't know how she could be an example to me.
Oh, she received the Word?
So I am to receive the Word?
Was that something I needed to learn from Mary?
I mean, the whole thing is ridiculous.

How much needs to be written in order for it to be an example to you?
She not only received the Word she gave birth to the Word? Did you do that?
You could learn that she surrendered to the will of God. Do you surrender to the will of God? Do you suppose it's God's will that you suggest Mary is no different than you? To declare the whole thing to be ridiculous? Fascinating

 

[Lizbeth]

Literally every person in the Bible had to receive God's Word and obey it. Mary is not anomalous in that regard. I really don't get the drive to make hay about her. It is idolatry.

Where do you see me making hay out of Mary brother? God forbid. But ALL scripture is profitable for us, including what is written about Mary.

 

[GracePeace]

Where do you see me making hay out of Mary brother? God forbid. But ALL scripture is profitable for us, including what is written about Mary.

To proceed from "all Scripture is profitable" to "Mary is a type" is uncalled for--I think it is "making hay".
To say something is a "type" is a very serious matter.
For Mary to be an example is one thing, but to proceed to say she is a "type" is too much for me.
I let the Apostles make those declarations, I don't throw words around.

 

[nedsk]

Oh dear, no. For a very long time I wasn't sure how to categorize the Catholic church....was it Christian or a Christian hybrid, or does God accept it as being His...? I just didn't know how to view it. Finally the answer came........a revelation that the ruling Spirit over the Catholic church is not the HOLY Spirit, but another spirit that is not of God. It's very important for believers to be unequivocal in our understanding of this.

And exactly how you know that "revelation" isnt from the same spirit you claim is ruling the Catholic Church? Be specific

 

[nedsk]

Literally every person in the Bible had to receive God's Word and obey it. Mary is not anomalous in that regard. I really don't get the drive to make hay about her. It is idolatry.

They had to obey?

 

[BreadOfLife]

LOL Jesus also calls the Samaritan woman "woman" (Jn 4)--is she ANOTHER "New Eve" just because of that?
How many "New Eve"s do you need?

Jesus probably called MANY women, “Woman” – but they weren’t His Mother.

NOBODY calls their mother, “Woman”, unless they’re being disrespectful. Jesus, who followed the Law perfectly, honored His mother.

Tell me, Einstein – was the woman at the well also mentioned in prophecy about the seed of the woman crushing the head of the serpent in Gen. 3:15??
I didn’t think so . . .

 

[GracePeace]

Jesus probably called MANY women, “Woman” – but they weren’t His Mother.

NOBODY calls their mother, “Woman”, unless they’re being disrespectful. Jesus, who followed the Law perfectly, honored His mother.

Tell me, Einstein – was the woman at the well also mentioned in prophecy about the seed of the woman crushing the head of the serpent in Gen. 3:15??
I didn’t think so . . .

Adam was a type of Christ (Ro 5).
Adam's bride, Eve, was his own body; Christ's bride, the Church, is "the body of Christ".
Ergo, the only New Eve that could exist would be the Church.
It's no coincidence Paul directly compares the Church to Eve (2 Co 11:3).

 

[Lizbeth]

To proceed from "all Scripture is profitable" to "Mary is a type" is uncalled for--I think it is "making hay".
To say something is a "type" is a very serious matter.
For Mary to be an example is one thing, but to proceed to say she is a "type" is too much for me.
I let the Apostles make those declarations, I don't throw words around.

Except that the apostles don't address every scripture that has been written. I think "these things happened unto them (Israel) and were written for our ensamples"....applies to the things that happened unto the Jewess Mary too. But you are making more of this than I am, believe me, to the point where it doesn't bother me at all to drop the subject.....I don't consider it important enough to wrangle over.

 

[GracePeace]

Except that the apostles don't address every scripture that has been written. I think "these things happened unto them (Israel) and were written for our ensamples"....applies to the things that happened unto the Jewess Mary too. But you are making more of this than I am, believe me, to the point where it doesn't bother me at all to drop the subject.....I don't consider it important enough to wrangle over.

Being that the topic of the entire thread is debunking Mary as the New Eve, and how people make too much of Mary, to me, other instances of people magnifying Mary falls in line with the topic--to say that Mary is an example where someone obeyed God is one thing, and, obviously I agree, but to proceed from there to declare Mary is a "type", to me, is making more of Mary than is called for.

 

[GodsGrace]

Is Christ being formed in us? We follow the same pattern as she. And it is God-glorifying when we see it, how perfectly everything in His word lines up. But I wouldn't say it is a life or death necessity, and God can use different scriptures to convey the same truth to different people.

Yes, I DO agree that Mary can be a good example for us...in many ways.
How she accepted the task God gave to her.
How she took care of her family.
How she was a humble person.
She was respected by Jesus and was probably a strong mother...but not over-bearing.
I shudder to think what she felt like at the foot of the cross....her bravery in just being there.
There's more I'm sure, but this is what I could think of at the moment.

 

[GodsGrace]

The idea that Mary is the New Eve is a belief that goes back ALL the way to the Early Church

In John’s Gospel, Jesus never refers to his mother as “Mother” (John 2:4, 19:26). Whenever He addresses his mother, he calls her “Woman”. This correlates directly to the Woman in Gen. 3:15 and in Rev. 12.

Jesus defeats death on Calvary and fulfills the prophecy in Gen. 3:15 about the “offspring of the woman”. Mary is present at the foot of the cross while this is happening - and what does Jesus call her in John 19:26? He calls her “WOMAN”, because the prophecy about the head of the serpent being crushed in Genesis is taking place right there on Calvary.

Justin Martyr
“Christ became a man by a virgin to overcome the disobedience caused by the serpent …For Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent, and bore disobedience and death.
But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the powers of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her would be called the Son of God. And she replied: ‘Be it done unto me according to thy word.” (Dialogue with Trypho 41 [A.D. 155]).

Ireneus
“Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying: “Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.”
Eve, however, was disobedient; and when yet a virgin, she did not obey…. having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race;
so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race….
Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary.
What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith.” (Against Heresies 1:10 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian
“it was while Eve was still a virgin that the word of the devil crept in to erect an edifice of death. Likewise, through a Virgin, the Word of God was introduced to set up a structure of life. Thus, what had been laid waste in ruin by this sex, was by the same sex re-established in salvation. Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which the one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight.” (On The Flesh of Christ 203–206 AD)

From this you can see that the idea of Mary as “the mother of all living in Christ” was something that the Church interpreted from the Scriptures from the very beginning, and would not have been alien to a first century reader at all - especially if they had John’s Gospel in front of them.

I posted this in my post no. 34:

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
All Christians believe Mary was a virgin that gave birth.
Just like Paul is speaking of presenting believers as bethrothed as a pure virgin.

This is what Irenaeus said:
“Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith”

– St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies (~AD 180)

Irenaeus was taught by Polycarp...who was taught by John.


Justin Martyr said the same:

1) St. Justin Martyr, 2nd century​

[Jesus] became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death.

But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, ‘Be it unto me according to your word.’ (Dialogue with Trypho, 100, A.D. 160)

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

I don't doubt what the ECFs stated about Mary.
Also, we all know about the disobedience of Eve and the obedience of Mary.

I'm just not sure that the DOGMA about Mary was instituted based on Mary being the new Eve.
THIS is what I've never heard.
I believe the dogma about Mary is instituted based on what the ECFs wrote about her....
NOT the fact that she was believed to be the new Eve.

 

[Truly]

Jesus probably called MANY women, “Woman” – but they weren’t His Mother.

NOBODY calls their mother, “Woman”, unless they’re being disrespectful. Jesus, who followed the Law perfectly, honored His mother.

Tell me, Einstein – was the woman at the well also mentioned in prophecy about the seed of the woman crushing the head of the serpent in Gen. 3:15??
I didn’t think so . . .

Hey there BreadOfLife (Verily here, new username)

We do see Mary (as one woman) being blessed by another woman for her role of bringing forth Christ according to the flesh (as we note the direct references to the womb and paps "of him") which things obviously pertain to his physical birth.

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is THE WOMB that bare thee, and THE PAPS which thou hast sucked.

He answers this woman this way

Luke 11:28 But he said, YEA RATHER, blessed are THEY THAT HEAR the word of God, and keep it.

He corrects her focus, and redirects it from just one woman (according to the flesh) to THE MANY that would hear the word of God

As far as the bruising of Satan under Mary's singular foot, Paul writes

Romans 16:20 And the God of peace SHALL BRUISE Satan under YOUR FEET shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Which again seems to remove that out from under what is considered to be Mary (singularly) to include the feet of His many membered body

As far as his mother goes, when we see Jesus mother (according to the flesh) standing outside of the circle of diciples then present

Jesus again redirects them from Mary (and his brethen) according to the flesh alone onto the many that are seated around him

Mark 3:33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

Mark 3:34 And he looked round about ON THEM which sat about him, and said, Behold MY MOTHER and MY BRETHREN!

No doubt Mary conceived the Word made flesh and carry him in her body for 9 months (as any mother would carry any child) and that is the way God chose to bring forth his Son into this world as any mother would bring a child into this world.

The greater part as far as I would count it, would not to be chosen to carry Christ in us after the flesh (for a 9 month physical pregnancy) but rather Christ formed in us (according to the Spirit) who abides with us for ever. And that ofcourse, would not exclude Mary who brought him into this world according to the flesh.