Mary as New Eve

[nedsk]

I apologise for misunderstanding.

No worries but this happens all the time. I don't know what or if you have a specific denomination but I am Catholic and I run into this all the time with no Catholic Christians. Just the word "Mary" and they automatically decide I "worship" Mary even though I don't but that fact becomes irrelevant simply because they have decided it's true. It's very difficult to converse with anyone who believes they are never wrong about the topic you are discussing whether its politics, sports and not just matters of faith. I appreciate the apology.

 

[David Lamb]

No worries but this happens all the time. I don't know what or if you have a specific denomination but I am Catholic and I run into this all the time with no Catholic Christians. Just the word "Mary" and they automatically decide I "worship" Mary even though I don't but that fact becomes irrelevant simply because they have decided it's true. It's very difficult to converse with anyone who believes they are never wrong about the topic you are discussing whether its politics, sports and not just matters of faith. I appreciate the apology.

I hope I didn't give the impression that I believe I am never wrong. That is why I try always to rely on the bible, so whether the subject under discussion is Mary, Creation, the Incarnation, or whatever, I believe what is really vital is what God tells us in His word. Thank you for your gracious post.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Vatican website, in Pope Pius IX's Apostolic Constitution, Ineffabilis Deus, discusses the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, highlighting that Mary was preserved free from original sin. Ineffabilis Deus describes Mary as being "preserved free from all stain of original sin" from the moment of her conception.

The text also includes a section titled "Mary Compared with Eve," which emphasizes the comparison between Mary and Eve in their respective relationships with sin. This section explains that the Fathers of the Church often compared Mary to Eve, who was initially sinless, but then chose to disobey God.

Here's the key passage from Ineffabilis Deus regarding the comparison of Mary and Eve:
The document quotes early Church Fathers who compared Mary to Eve before her fall from grace, emphasizing Mary's original innocence and sanctity. It states that unlike Eve, who was deceived and became a slave to sin, Mary never gave in to temptation and, through divine power, overcame the influence of the evil one. The document further explains that because of her freedom from all sin and her victory over Satan, Mary is seen as being more glorious than Eve. The idea of Mary as the "New Eve" is a significant concept in Catholic theology, representing her role in reversing the consequences of Eve's disobedience through her own perfect obedience to God

Text of Ineffabilis Deus
Hence, it is the clear and unanimous opinion of the Fathers that the most glorious Virgin, for whom “he who is mighty has done great things,” was resplendent with such an abundance of heavenly gifts, with such a fullness of grace and with such innocence, that she is an unspeakable miracle of God — indeed, the crown of all miracles and truly the Mother of God; that she approaches as near to God himself as is possible for a created being; and that she is above all men and angels in glory. Hence, to demonstrate the original innocence and sanctity of the Mother of God, not only did they frequently compare her to Eve while yet a virgin, while yet innocence, while yet incorrupt, while not yet deceived by the deadly snares of the most treacherous serpent; but they have also exalted her above Eve with a wonderful variety of expressions. Eve listened to the serpent with lamentable consequences; she fell from original innocence and became his slave. The most Blessed Virgin, on the contrary, ever increased her original gift, and not only never lent an ear to the serpent, but by divinely given power she utterly destroyed the force and dominion of the evil one.
...
She is celebrated as innocence never sullied and as the second Eve who brought forth the Emmanuel.

Thanks for posting the above, but it just confirms what I believe.

The dogmas about Mary came about because of what the ECFs wrote about her, and I'd include James' Protoevangelium, not really because Mary was compared to Eve.

Mary was compared to Eve, IOW, but I wouldn't say that THIS is why the dogmas came about.

 

[nedsk]

I hope I didn't give the impression that I believe I am never wrong. That is why I try always to rely on the bible, so whether the subject under discussion is Mary, Creation, the Incarnation, or whatever, I believe what is really vital is what God tells us in His word. Thank you for your gracious post.

No you didnt give that impression I was just sharing my experience. You're a refreshing change of pace. Its extremely rare that anyone apologizes so I greatly respect your integrity. Yes the word of God is most vital, sadly though there seems to be as many interpretations of that word as there are people who read it. I wish it wasn't so but not all wishes come true I guess. Thank you for your kind words.

 

[GracePeace]

You're reading an awful lot into what I'm saying there. The confusion was on my end, because I simply didn't know what the fullness of the Gentiles meant. Most people say it is referring to the end of this age when all the Gentiles who will be saved are saved, which didn't seem to fit. My being confused doesn't mean the truth itself is complicated. When you spoke about the remnant of Israel the Lord cleared that up for me on the wings of what you said. The fullness of the Gentiles is talking about the same thing as the fullness of the Jews, it is talking about those who come to faith in Christ, a remnant of Gentiles just the same as it is a remnant of Israel.

In that context in which it was written the fullness of the Gentiles was talking about the gospel being established among the Gentiles in those as yet early days of the church, so they could in turn begin to evangelize the Jews, "that through their mercy the Jews might find mercy." I don't think that would have begun to happen much yet, because the believing Jews, especially Paul and those under him, were still in the beginning stages of evangelizing the Gentiles. (I would guess the turning point was probably 70 AD which marked the end of the old covenant Temple worship and the Jews became scattered among the Gentiles and more within reach of them to evangelize...as well the Gentile churches would have been more established by then and there would be some mature among them, not all "novices".)

I hope that explains things more fully. And the glory goes to God, not to me racking my brains or praying and waiting on the Lord, and nor to you. He simply illuminated it like someone switching on a light. The scripture says "What do we have that we didn't RECEIVE?".... from God. When the LORD opens my eyes to some truth, it is always very simple....simply a matter of either "seeing" or not "seeing" it.

Right, but if the Bible were simple, you ought not to have been confused at all--that's the point.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue with a woman, because you are the weaker vessels (mentally), so you will never admit the truth of your folly (claiming the Bible is simple).

 

[GracePeace]

Thanks for posting the above, but it just confirms what I believe.

The dogmas about Mary came about because of what the ECFs wrote about her, and I'd include James' Protoevangelium, not really because Mary was compared to Eve.

Mary was compared to Eve, IOW, but I wouldn't say that THIS is why the dogmas came about.

You can "say" what you like, and I will "say" what I like--the dogma of IC relies in part upon her having been as Eve, thus she was to have been sinless, just as Eve, yet she obeyed instead of disobeying--nice discussing with you.

 

[GracePeace]

It wasn't complicated, I didn't have to think hard or rack my brains trying to figure it out, I simply received the understanding, of what the fullness of the Gentile is referring to. Had been waiting a long time to understand that. The Lord is good.

For thousands of years, men have devoted their entire lives to studying Scripture, attempting to answer its difficult questions, differing with others on its meaning and debating one another on its meaning, but you say "it's simple"! I'm not interested in speaking with a person who is so foolish and dishonest. Welcome to my ignore list!

 

[GodsGrace]

For thousands of years, men have devoted their entire lives to studying Scripture, attempting to answer its difficult questions, differing with others on its meaning and debating one another on its meaning, but you say "it's simple"! I'm not interested in speaking with a person who is so foolish and dishonest. Welcome to my ignore list!

Calm down GracePeace!
Take a break.
You don't seem to understand my point or even what Lizbeth is saying.

No problem.
See you next time around.

 

[GracePeace]

Calm down GracePeace!
Take a break.
You don't seem to understand my point or even what Lizbeth is saying.

No problem.
See you next time around.

Nope, she is stubbornly refusing to admit a very basic truth, which is unadulterated dishonesty, which demonstrates her commitment to dodging truth in all cases, so I'm not going to argue with a donkey.

 

[GracePeace]

Thanks for posting the above, but it just confirms what I believe.

The dogmas about Mary came about because of what the ECFs wrote about her, and I'd include James' Protoevangelium, not really because Mary was compared to Eve.

Mary was compared to Eve, IOW, but I wouldn't say that THIS is why the dogmas came about.

Either way--how ever it does or does not affect "Catholicism"--the entire idea of Mary as New Eve is an error.

 

[GodsGrace]

Either way--how ever it does or does not affect "Catholicism"--the entire idea of Mary as New Eve is an error.

OK
That's a different statement.

 

[GracePeace]

OK
That's a different statement.

Meaning, how ever you want to view it is how you are going to view it--anyone who wants to discuss how it affects the claim to infallibility can discuss it with me.

 

[GodsGrace]

Meaning, how ever you want to view it is how you are going to view it--anyone who wants to discuss how it affects the claim to infallibility can discuss it with me.

I can tell you how I feel about Mary.
I feel that Catholics talk about her too much.
I feel that Protestants talk about her too little.
She held Jesus in her body.
She's not like other women as some Protestants state.
She's different and special to me.

Non-catholics believe mary is worshipped.
Maybe some Catholics do worship her, but they're not supposed to.
It's not what the CC teaches.

I do think we should venerate her.

The ECFs did speak about her and had nothing but praise.

This is how I feel.
I do believe the IC is most probably correct.
I do not believe she was assumed into heaven...l've never read anything about this.
I do not believe she is a co-redemptrix.
I do believe that salvation came out of her in the sense that salavation was in her body...
but nothing beyond that.

I also don't really understand what all the fuss is about...
why does this interest you so much?

 

[GracePeace]

I can tell you how I feel about Mary.
I feel that Catholics talk about her too much.
I feel that Protestants talk about her too little.
She held Jesus in her body.
She's not like other women as some Protestants state.
She's different and special to me.

Non-catholics believe mary is worshipped.
Maybe some Catholics do worship her, but they're not supposed to.
It's not what the CC teaches.

I do think we should venerate her.

The ECFs did speak about her and had nothing but praise.

This is how I feel.
I do believe the IC is most probably correct.
I do not believe she was assumed into heaven...l've never read anything about this.
I do not believe she is a co-redemptrix.
I do believe that salvation came out of her in the sense that salavation was in her body...
but nothing beyond that.

I also don't really understand what all the fuss is about...
why does this interest you so much?

The claim of infallibility is a a very big claim, and it, apparently, rests on provably shaky ground.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Christ in us (the body)

1 Cr 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

Yes but individually we are not the Body of Christ, but parts of it (1 Cor. 12).

 

[GodsGrace]

The claim of infallibility is a a very big claim, and it, apparently, rests on provably shaky ground.

Infallibility does not mean that the CC has everything perfectly stated.
It means that the POPE is infallible but only in certain circumstances.
Pope Francis proved this.
He TRIED to pass some changes to the Catholic doctrine.
It was not very successful because some priests (many) and some bishops would not adhere to those changes.
He was NOT speaking ex-cathedra.
Making a recommendation is one thing,
changing doctrine is another.
But this is complicated enough for a Catholic, I hesitate to speak about it with a Protestant.

 

[GracePeace]

Infallibility does not mean that the CC has everything perfectly stated.

Again, the IC, which, in part, rests upon the foundation of Mary as the New Eve, is a doctrine declared ex-cathedra.

 

[Lizbeth]

Right, but if the Bible were simple, you ought not to have been confused at all--that's the point.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue with a woman, because you are the weaker vessels (mentally), so you will never admit the truth of your folly (claiming the Bible is simple).

oh dear, lol. Does God only reveal truth to scholars and intellectuals? Scripture says the natural man cannot perceive the things of God, they must be spiritually discerned.....and the carnal mind is enmity with Him. His strength is made perfect in our weakness, not in our strength.

 

[Lizbeth]

For thousands of years, men have devoted their entire lives to studying Scripture, attempting to answer its difficult questions, differing with others on its meaning and debating one another on its meaning, but you say "it's simple"! I'm not interested in speaking with a person who is so foolish and dishonest. Welcome to my ignore list!

Feel free to ignore me if you wish. Isn't it the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth...?...I find it to be true. And that way GOD gets the glory as well. Couple of scriptures to help keep us humble......."If we think we know we do not yet know as we ought" and "Where there is knowledge it will pass away." Have a blessed day.

 

[GracePeace]

Infallibility does not mean that the CC has everything perfectly stated.
It means that the POPE is infallible but only in certain circumstances.
Pope Francis proved this.
He TRIED to pass some changes to the Catholic doctrine.
It was not very successful because some priests (many) and some bishops would not adhere to those changes.
He was NOT speaking ex-cathedra.
Making a recommendation is one thing,
changing doctrine is another.
But this is complicated enough for a Catholic, I hesitate to speak about it with a Protestant.

Again, the IC, which, in part, rests upon the foundation of Mary as the New Eve, is a doctrine declared ex-cathedra.

The ordinary and universal magisterium is considered infallible in its teaching of faith and morals. This means that when the bishops, in union with the Pope, agree on a teaching on faith or morals, and propose it as definitively held, that teaching is considered infallible. The ordinary magisterium is the regular teaching of the Church, not just in formal papal declarations, but also in the consistent teaching of bishops over time.