Is it possible to lose salvation?

[nedsk]

Philippians 2:12-13
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Philippians 2:12 and 13 go together; you can't understand verse 12 apart from verse 13. This is made clear by Paul's use of "for" at the beginning of verse 13. This term signals that verse 12 is conditioned upon verse 13. In other words, verse 12 is possible only because of verse 13; if verse 13 isn't true, then verse 12 isn't possible; if God hasn't first worked into us the ability and desire to do His will, we can't work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

So, then, verse 12 isn't indicating that we should be afraid for our salvation but that, in a condition of deep, awe-filled reverence for God and Christ before whom every knee will one day bend and every tongue confess that he is Lord (verses 10-11), we work out what God has worked into us by His Spirit. Nothing rests upon me except to manifest in my living what GOD has first done in me. I certainly can't keep my salvation by my works. I didn't obtain my salvation by this means (Eph. 2:8-9; 2 Ti. 1:9; Tit. 3:5) and my acceptance by God rests solely upon my being "in Christ" (Ro. 13:14; Ga. 3:27; 2 Co. 5:17; Eph. 1:1-13) so what, then, is there to fear concerning my salvation? It is as secure as God's eternal, unchanging acceptance of Christ in whom I have obtained perfect redemption, justification and sanctification (1 Co. 1:30).

And so, when Paul wrote what he did in verse 12, he was not suggesting that a saved person should be afraid for their salvation because it could be lost. Not at all. He was, in fact, indicating just how secure a believer's salvation is since it is conditioned upon the work of God in them who gives to His children both the desire and ability to do His will.

A secure believer does not have fear and trembling but good effort.

 

[nedsk]

That's the first clue that eternal security is false doctrine just like catholicism is false doctrine as they contradict their own doctrine!

Where does the Catholic church contradict it's own doctrine? Be specific with Catholic references. This should be fantastic.

 

[GodsGrace]

Have you forgotten what Paul wrote in Romans 7:14-22 and Galatians 5:17? It is in light of the things Paul wrote in these two places in Scripture (and others) that his injunction in Philippians 2:12 makes sense. Yes, the born-again person is given a "new nature" in Jesus Christ (2 Co. 5:17), but the old, carnal Adamic nature still exists and wars against the Spirit within them. And so, Paul has many places in his letters where he explains the spiritual reality in which Christians are as adopted children of God so that they act properly in resistance of the old, carnal nature under which they once lived in bondage (and may still, if they so choose).

It is your last sentence that destroys your entire premise.
And I'd like @mailmandan to witness, as I'm sure he has many times before, what this OSAS type of thinking brings to.

Are you saying that we could choose to resist the old carnal nature...or still live in it?

Here is what you've stated:

" Paul has many places in his letters where he explains the spiritual reality in which Christians are as adopted children of God so that they act properly in resistance of the old, carnal nature under which they once lived in bondage (and may still, if they so choose)."

If they so choose WHAT Kokyu?
To live in sin?
To disobey Jesus?

Please clarify your position.

And you like Romans 7:14-22? Now we know why.

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,


What exactly do you THINK Romans 7 is saying?

Do you believe you can still sin because you are not the one doing it?

And what does Galatians 5:17 mean?

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


I added verses 19 to 21 just in case you've misunderstood Paul because Romans is the most difficult book in the NT to understand and so is Paul.


2 Peter 3:16
15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so * that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,


Though Paul might be difficult to understand, I added verse 17 in which Paul, once again, gives a warning to be on guard so as not to be CARRIED AWAY by the error of men with no principles and thus FALL from steadfastness.


Paul does this many times:

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach -
23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.


Paul states that we will be presented holy and blameless before God
IF we CONTINUE IN THE FAITH....

IF is conditional and is conditioned on the fact that we CONTINUE in our faith...continue to believe.


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[GodsGrace]

@Kokyu


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But an apple tree isn't an apple tree because it bears apples. A boat isn't a boat because it is floating on water. An injured member of a football team isn't a member of the team only because he is taking part in the action on the field. So, too, the Christian person who is "in Christ," not because he has earned his way to such a condition by continually doing good works (which the Bible repeatedly and explicitly denies is possible - Eph. 2:8-9; 2 Ti. 1:9; Tit. 3:5), but because he has been saved by the Savior and given new, spiritual life in himself by the Holy Spirit. The Christian, then, is an "apple tree" in order to bear "apples" not because they bear "apples." Or, in other words, it is natural that a Christian will bear spiritual fruit but is not, therefore, necessary that they do so.

Unfortunately, Jesus does not agree with you.

Jesus states that we are to ABIDE in Him.
Jesus states that we are to do good works.

Jesus cursed the fig tree because it did not produce any fruit:
Luke 13:6-9
6 And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
7 "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without * finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
8 "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
9 and if it bears fruit next * year, fine; but if not, cut it down.' "

I've already explained in this thread why the bit you've added at the end is mistaken, so I won't do so again here.



Yes, Scripture does this. But simply asserting that I've misinterpreted Paul does not prove that I have. Nothing I pointed out from Philippians 2:12-13 contorts or mishandles what Paul wrote. Now, my explanation of his words disagrees with YOUR view of what he wrote, but this isn't the same as disagreeing with Paul. And so far, you've not actually shown that I've done violence to Paul's words or meaning.

You've done MUCH violence to Paul's teachings.

This is what Paul taught:
Romans 2:5-8
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.


And what is the truth?
Jesus told us:
John 15:14
14 "You are My friends if you do what I command you.

Yes. And by what means did Paul "discipline his body"? He tells us in Philippians 2:13; 4:13; Ephesians 3:16; 6:10, Romans 8:13, etc.

Do you know how to post scripture?
Please try.

What does Paul mean by "disqualified," in context? In light of the many instances in Paul's epistles where he clearly located his salvation, not in himself or his righteousness, but in Christ, denying repeatedly that works have any part in how a person is saved, one cannot reasonably conclude that he meant "lose my salvation." From what would Paul be disqualified, then? Well, in context, from preaching the Gospel which he plainly states (verse 27).

Kokyu.
THIS is what disqualified means:

It means you're OUT OF THE RACE.

Verse 27 states that Paul might be disqualified AFTER PREACHING THE GOSPEL...
NOT FROM preaching the gospel.


And maybe you missed this:

Paul said.
2 Corinthians 5:9-10
9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Paul states that we will be judged by our good deeds...
just as Jesus does.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Where does the Catholic church contradict it's own doctrine? Be specific with Catholic references. This should be fantastic.

Why don't you start with the claim that all your popes speak for God and their words are infallible and then notice all the times your popes disagreed with and contradicted things other popes said.

That's a good starting point exposing the catholics religion as the clown show that it is.

Let's see you squirm your way out of that mess!

 

[Kokyu]

Are you saying that we could choose to resist the old carnal nature...or still live in it?

Yes. Once a person is saved, they have this ability. Read Romans 6:1-11.

If they so choose WHAT Kokyu?
To live in sin?
To disobey Jesus?

That's not, of course, how Christians usually frame their sin, but this what they are doing when they choose to follow the direction of the old, carnal Self.

And you like Romans 7:14-22? Now we know why.

I "like" it? Where did I write such a thing? Nowhere.

What exactly do you THINK Romans 7 is saying?

Do you believe you can still sin because you are not the one doing it?

??? Obviously not. Read Romans 8:1-16. Why are you trying to frame my position in such bizarre and unwarranted ways?

I added verses 19 to 21 just in case you've misunderstood Paul because Romans is the most difficult book in the NT to understand and so is Paul.

??? I've not misunderstood Paul. But you certainly seem eager to think I have - though I've given you no good cause to do so. Why is that?

And what does Galatians 5:17 mean?

Simply read what Paul wrote. His language in the verse is not at all difficult to comprehend.

2 Peter 3:16
15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so * that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,


Though Paul might be difficult to understand, I added verse 17 in which Paul, once again, gives a warning to be on guard so as not to be CARRIED AWAY by the error of men with no principles and thus FALL from steadfastness.

You mean Peter, not Paul. The Scripture quotation above is from 2 Peter about Paul, in part, but the section you highlighted are not Paul's words, but Peter's. Maybe his words are difficult for you to understand because you think it's Paul speaking when, in fact, it's Peter.

I assume you think "fall from steadfastness" means "fall from salvation." But, as you've pointed out, Scripture says what it means and means what is says. And so, when Peter wrote "from steadfastness," not "from salvation," that's exactly what he meant. Why are you altering his words (if this is how you're understanding what he wrote)?

Paul does this many times:

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach -
23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.


Paul states that we will be presented holy and blameless before God
IF we CONTINUE IN THE FAITH....

How would God present anyone blameless and above reproach if they depart from the faith? The mere act of departing is sin. But how does not being presented to God holy and blameless equate to salvation lost? Paul never wrote "If you don't continue in the faith you will lose your salvation." This is a construction you're putting upon his words derived, not from what he actually wrote but from your salvation-lost presupposition that you're imposing on his words. In contrast, all I have to do is understand Paul's words as they're given and when I do, I don't arrive at a threat of salvation lost but a warning of standing before God not holy, blameless and above reproach. These are two very different states-of-affairs.

As some do, I could, alternatively, simply understand that Paul was writing of the false convert who because he is not truly saved departs the faith, like those of whom the apostle John wrote:

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

No one who is genuinely saved would depart the faith and so, those who do reveal they "were not really of us" though they had perhaps participated for a time in life and work of the Church.

So, then, a saved-and-lost interpretation of Paul's words in Colossians 1:21-23 is by no means the only possible one - and it certainly isn't the most reasonable one, either.

 

[Kokyu]

Unfortunately, Jesus does not agree with you.

Jesus states that we are to ABIDE in Him.

This observation by no means counters what I wrote. Not even close.

To "abide in Christ" is to be saved. One cannot be saved and not abide in him, after all. And neither verse 2 nor verse 6 of John 15 actually refer to a saved person who has lost their salvation. I've already addressed this passage earlier in this thread, so I won't do so again here.

Jesus cursed the fig tree because it did not produce any fruit:
Luke 13:6-9
6 And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
7 "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without * finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
8 "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
9 and if it bears fruit next * year, fine; but if not, cut it down.' "

I don't see any "And so you will lose your salvation if you're like this irritating fig tree" in this passage... But, then, I'm not wearing "lose your salvation" lenses as I read it.

You've done MUCH violence to Paul's teachings.

Nope. All caps aren't a valid argument. Neither is flat contradiction.

This is what Paul taught:
Romans 2:5-8
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

Is this all that Paul wrote in the chapter? Not at all. Here's some more of his words:

Romans 2:1-13
1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Who's in view in the above passage? Paul describes the person he has in mind in verses 1 and 3: The one who passes judgment on another for that of which they are themselves guilty. This person is also stubborn and unrepentant (vs. 5). Is Paul speaking of a Christian? He doesn't say this, but he does describe someone acting in a very un-Christian way. He then goes on to describe a very Old Covenant dynamic between God and His creatures (vs. 6-13). This doesn't seem to bear out the idea that the verses you proof-texted apply to Christians. And this is confirmed as Paul goes on in the chapter:

Romans 2:17-24
17 But if you bear the name "Jew" and rely upon the Law and boast in God,
18 and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law,
19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,
20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth,
21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?
22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?
24 For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.

At this point it should be clear that Paul is not addressing Christians and that from the start of the chapter this has been the case. He's been speaking to the hypocritical Jew who is relying upon the Mosaic Law and his keeping of it to enter God's kingdom. They teach the law but don't keep it, bringing God's name into disrepute among the Gentiles. It is to these law-keeping Jews that Paul wrote that God would judge them according to the Old Covenant standard (vs. 6) under which they were still operating (hypocritically).

Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Here, Paul describes the New Covenant way of pleasing God: being "circumcised" of heart by the Spirit, not by the letter (of God's command) which he made much of in his letter to the believers in Galatia:

Galatians 3:3
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

So, if you had properly understood Paul in this chapter, you would not be guilty of misrepresenting his words in verse 6 entirely, inappropriately applying to Christians what was meant for hypocritical Jews acting as though they were still under Old Covenant law-keeping.

 

[bro.tan]

Paul also said it is/was possible that he could be a castaway. Depending on how someone sees this, that passage, Paul could have been cut off.

That's right, let's go read in (1 Cor. 9:24-27) (v.24) Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. (v.25) And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown: but we an incorruptible.
Paul says that when you run in a race every body is running for a prize. But this prize that he is referring to is eternal life, that’s what he means by an incorruptible, he’s talking about an incorruptible body, a heavenly body. (v.26) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly, so fight, not as one that beateth the air: (v.27) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. You see Paul knew exactly what was going on that why he says he has to bring his body under subjection. Under subjection to what? To God’s Law, Paul knew that if he didn’t continue to keep Gods law that even after he had preached to many that he himself could still become a castaway. This doesn’t sound like Paul thinks that he has guarantee salvation.