WHAT IS THE WATER IN JOHN 3:5?

[ScottA]

Dear ScottA,
Yes, the Early and Latter Rains concept is a part of the farming analogy. The farming analogy teaches the pathway to salvation. It is one of many analogies that Christ uses in scripture.

The Latter Rain is what makes a person ready for the harvest into the Kingdom of Heaven. It is the baptism.

The Early Rain is what makes an unbeliever into a believer. It will give the person their faith and certain spiritual gifts - but it is given in a small measure as Joel pointed (Joel 2:23). It is not the baptism. When a person has only the Early Rain, they will remain a babe who can only draw milk. The Latter Rain is what will heal the babe's spiritual blindness so that they finally understand the spiritual teachings of Christ.

To be saved, an Elect person begins with the Early Rain and then after a time of waiting, they will receive the Latter Rain. After they receive the Latter Rain, Christ will spiritually appear and begin the Day of the Lord within the person. Christ teaches this judgment in Mat 24:37-41 and in Rev 19:11-21.

Also, the Early Rain was not fulfilled at Pentecost - that was the Latter Rain that made the Jewish Elect ready for harvest into the Kingdom of Heaven.

The Gentile churches that Paul began received only the Early Rain. Look closely at 1Corinthians - Paul is talking to carnally minded babes who can only understand "Christ and Him crucified" (Christ's physical work). They could not understand the spiritual work that Christ was presently doing under the New Covenant.

Here is what Paul said to them about the Early and Latter Rains though he did not use those terms:

1Cor 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

A person will make a confession of faith (their testimony) and receive spiritual gifts when they receive the Early Rain. After a person receives the Early Rain, they begin a time of waiting for Christ to return with the Latter Rain. Paul refers to the Latter Rain in verse 8:

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Being confirmed to the end (same as end of the ages) is a person's moment of salvation when they become a child of God who enters the Kingdom of Heaven.

Paul mentions the end of the ages here:

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

Paul mentions the time of waiting for the Latter Rain in this verse:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

The first time Christ appears to a person is after they are given the Early Rain. This is when they see Christ in the flesh (Christ and Him crucified). That is when the person becomes a babe in Christ who can only draw milk. When Christ returns with the Latter Rain to bring the babe their salvation, He will appear spiritually to them. That is when the spiritual teachings of the New Covenant will open up to the person's understanding - that's what the scales falling from Paul's eyes represented when he was converted. Paul blindness was healed when he received the Latter Rain. Paul received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road and that is why scripture says Paul remained blind and unable to eat for three days. The food Paul could not consume was the bread and wine of the New Covenant. The number three represents a spiritual process. The spiritual process that Paul went through during those three day was being made "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45) and becoming a man of sin. For that reason, Paul lodged in Judas' house. After the three days were complete, Paul prayed and Christ (typed by Ananias) came to Paul on a street named "straight" - this represents that Christ's way was made straight (faith alone, no mixing of works).

Here is what James says about the Early and Latter Rains:

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

James is writing to babes who have only received the Early Rain. James is encouraging them to have patience while they wait for the Lord to return with the Latter Rain. James even tells them that the Lord's return to them "draweth nigh". In the farming analogy, the Elect are the "precious fruit of the earth" (wheat). As James says, the wheat is not ready for harvest until it has received both the Early and Latter Rains.

Here are four other verses that use the Early and Latter Rains:

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder (voice of God) and Rain (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no Latter Rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed (time of being an apostate babe/man of sin).

Psa 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful Rain (Latter Rain), whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary (in an apostate condition).

The Early and Latter Rains concept is taught in many of Christ spiritual teachings but since it is taught in His spiritual language, babes cannot see it being taught.

Joe

That is all well and good to a point, but should not overshadow the greater meaning of "first to the Jew, and also to the Greek (gentile, afterward), including also that early rain specifically given to Israel, lest we become self-important in our own eyes, as if it refers only to those born after Christ sent the Holy Spirit, the fulfilment of Joel's prophecy of God pouring out His spirit upon all flesh. It is a mistake to receive only that part that pertains to us personally.

 

[JohnDB]

So "Peter ran" is in the bible because no Jewish man ever ran? So "Peter ran" is there to let people know Jewish men DONT run???????

It's to let you know Peter became completely undone. Peter freaked out and lost all composure. He didn't care if people thought him unrespectable. He just cared that Jesus's body was missing and possibly Jesus was alive.

 

[FaithWillDo]

That is all well and good to a point, but should not overshadow the greater meaning of "first to the Jew, and also to the Greek (gentile, afterward), including also that early rain specifically given to Israel, lest we become self-important in our own eyes, as if it refers only to those born after Christ sent the Holy Spirit, the fulfilment of Joel's prophecy of God pouring out His spirit upon all flesh. It is a mistake to receive only that part that pertains to us personally.

Dear ScottA,
The Early and Latter Rain concept is a teaching on the pathway that Christ causes His Elect to travel to their salvation. Why would you believe that it applies also to "first the Jew and afterward the Greek"? That is an outward understanding of a spiritual teaching. Spiritual teachings apply "within" a person. Do you have any scripture to support your belief?
Joe

 

[JohnDB]

Great point about the amniotic fluid.
About not repeating necessary and well-known facts,
or writing about something that may not have been done normally (a man running - Peter at the tomb).
And keep me posted on the book.
I thought it would be ready by now....

I thought we would be done by now too. But my wife is the professional....I'm the hack. It will be awesome when complete. Just taking longer than I thought.

 

[ScottA]

Dear ScottA,
The Early and Latter Rain concept is a teaching on the pathway that Christ causes His Elect to travel to their salvation. Why would you believe that it applies also to "first the Jew and afterward the Greek"? That is an outward understanding of a spiritual teaching. Spiritual teachings apply "within" a person. Do you have any scripture to support your belief?
Joe

First, I was not and am not speaking out of my own "beliefs." It is important to understand that while there is an immense sea of such activity for the sake of discussion and perhaps debate, God still delivers what is true directly. For which we are commanded, "He who has an ear, let him hear."

But to answer your question: Because, as it is written, "the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual" (1 Corinthians 15:46).

 

[FaithWillDo]

First, I was not and am not speaking out of my own "beliefs." It is important to understand that while there is an immense sea of such activity for the sake of discussion and perhaps debate, God still delivers what is true directly. For which we are commanded, "He who has an ear, let him hear."

But to answer your question: Because, as it is written, "the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual" (1 Corinthians 15:46).

Dear ScottA,
Yes, the natural is the Early Rain which leaves a new babe in Christ carnally minded and spiritually blind. All believers start off following Christ in this way. The Latter Rain (the baptism) is the spiritual and is when a person's spiritual blindness is healed. After it is healed, they become a spiritual man who has the mind of Christ and not a carnal mind.

Paul shows the natural man and the spiritual man in the verse below. Both are Christians but one is unconverted (natural/babe) and one is converted (spiritual/saint).

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man (a babe/Early Rain only) be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual (converted/both Early & Latter Rains), restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

My question to you was to show scripture that supports your belief that the Early Rain also carries an outward meaning which represents the baptism of the Holy Spirit that the Jewish Elect received on the Day of Pentecost. I can answer the question for you because I know that there are zero scriptures that support this understanding. In fact, there are numerous scriptures which contradict your understanding.

The Early and Latter Rain concept applies to an individual who is following Christ. Christ gives the person the Early Rain when He calls them to be saint. Christ gives "many" people the Early Rain. For those who are chosen to actually become saints, Christ will return to them later (after a time of waiting) and will pour out the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain is what the Jewish Elect received on the Day of Pentecost and not the Early Rain.

This same pattern of the Early and Latter Rain is also true for Gentiles. They receive the Early Rain first. It is the Early Rain that gives the Gentile person their faith and desire to follow Christ. This is when they enter the church as a babe who remains carnally minded, spiritually blind and unconverted. The churches of the world are full of these type of believers. Next, if the Gentile is one of the Elect, Christ will return to them with the Latter Rain to convert them. Both the Early and Latter Rains are required for any person to be saved. It's not one or the other - it's both the Early and Latter Rains.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

The Elect are the precious fruit of the earth that can only be harvested into the Kingdom of Heaven (the barn) after they have received both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit.

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and Rain (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Joe

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Well; it appears to me that the water of John 3:5 isn't a natural kind of
water intended for normal uses like bathing, washing, or irrigation, rather,
it's a supernatural water, and it's intended use is as a beverage.

● John 4:10 . . Jesus answered her: If you knew the gift of God, and who it
is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have
given you living water.

Now obviously the water that Jesus offered the woman wasn't natural H2O.
Had it been, Jesus would not be asking the lady for a drink of hers because
his slacks one's thirst forever, viz: living water keeps its users hydrated
nonstop.

● John 4:13-14 . . Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but
whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I
give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

"living water" is apparently a figure of speech that speaks of special
characteristics relative to God's Holy Spirit.

● John 7:37-39 . . On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and
said in a loud voice: If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink!
Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water
will flow from within him! By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who
believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been
given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Also:

● 1Cor 12:13 . . For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-whether
Jews or Greeks, slave or free-and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

And finally in last chapter of the last book of the Bible, the scope of the
benefit is extended so to make it available to the entire world.

● Rev 22:17 . .The Spirit and the bride say: Come! And let him who hears
say: Come! Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him
take the free gift of the water of life.

Now regardless of how someone might interpret the living water and/or how
they might feel about it; there are at least five things we know for sure.

1) It's supernatural

2) It sustains eternal life.

3) Folks need only to imbibe it once.

4) It's free of charge with no strings attached.

5) The offer requires a response.

So: I suggest finding a quite place. Cover you face with your hands: it will
give you a sense of connection. In your own words-- out loud or under your
breath --speak up and tell God you would like to have the living water that
His son advertises in the new testament.
_

 

[Exegesis]

Some believe water to be:
The word of God

I think you are on to something by linking the water to the word of God.

I feel like we need to understand the word of God as being at least two different things. Yes, there are letters and words, but would you agree that the word of God is also alive? That means that the spirit is there as well. It's as if the two are combined into one.

Check out this verse:

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The spirit makes the word 'live'. It is life. If we say that Jesus is the word and the life, then we have a Trinity.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Just brainstorming here. Interesting thread!

 

[ScottA]

Dear ScottA,
Yes, the natural is the Early Rain which leaves a new babe in Christ carnally minded and spiritually blind. All believers start off following Christ in this way. The Latter Rain (the baptism) is the spiritual and is when a person's spiritual blindness is healed. After it is healed, they become a spiritual man who has the mind of Christ and not a carnal mind.

Paul shows the natural man and the spiritual man in the verse below. Both are Christians but one is unconverted (natural/babe) and one is converted (spiritual/saint).

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man (a babe/Early Rain only) be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual (converted/both Early & Latter Rains), restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

My question to you was to show scripture that supports your belief that the Early Rain also carries an outward meaning which represents the baptism of the Holy Spirit that the Jewish Elect received on the Day of Pentecost. I can answer the question for you because I know that there are zero scriptures that support this understanding. In fact, there are numerous scriptures which contradict your understanding.

The Early and Latter Rain concept applies to an individual who is following Christ. Christ gives the person the Early Rain when He calls them to be saint. Christ gives "many" people the Early Rain. For those who are chosen to actually become saints, Christ will return to them later (after a time of waiting) and will pour out the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain is what the Jewish Elect received on the Day of Pentecost and not the Early Rain.

This same pattern of the Early and Latter Rain is also true for Gentiles. They receive the Early Rain first. It is the Early Rain that gives the Gentile person their faith and desire to follow Christ. This is when they enter the church as a babe who remains carnally minded, spiritually blind and unconverted. The churches of the world are full of these type of believers. Next, if the Gentile is one of the Elect, Christ will return to them with the Latter Rain to convert them. Both the Early and Latter Rains are required for any person to be saved. It's not one or the other - it's both the Early and Latter Rains.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

The Elect are the precious fruit of the earth that can only be harvested into the Kingdom of Heaven (the barn) after they have received both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit.

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and Rain (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Joe

You are stuck, and you are not listening or hearing. I am not telling you what I "believe", but what is true from God.

Take it or leave it, but the former, early rain was unto Israel (the natural by example), while with the coming of Christ the kingdom of heaven came upon Israel, whom Christ "finished" with, and then sent the Holy Spirit, for the most part, to the church and the gentiles, fulfilling Joel's prophecy of God pouring out His spirit upon all flesh beginning at Pentecost, which was and is the latter, spring rain, which is the greater downpour.

To the contrary, what you (and many) have outlined, is but a shadow and reminder of the smaller beginning that was before, of the greater outpouring from God which was to come afterward in spirit. Without which we are a house without a firm foundation--like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

 

[FaithWillDo]

You are stuck, and you are not listening or hearing. I am not telling you what I "believe", but what is true from God.

Take it or leave it, but the former, early rain was unto Israel (the natural by example), while with the coming of Christ the kingdom of heaven came upon Israel, whom Christ "finished" with, and then sent the Holy Spirit, for the most part, to the church and the gentiles, fulfilling Joel's prophecy of God pouring out His spirit upon all flesh beginning at Pentecost, which was and is the latter, spring rain, which is the greater downpour.

To the contrary, what you (and many) have outlined, is but a shadow and reminder of the smaller beginning that was before, of the greater outpouring from God which was to come afterward in spirit. Without which we are a house without a firm foundation--like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Dear ScottA,
I have asked you for scripture to support your contention. However, you have provided none. The reason you have provided none is because there is not any. Your belief is nothing more than conjecture and does not come from scripture.

When you look at the Early and Latter Rain teachings in scripture, both the Early and Latter Rains apply to the Jews and Gentiles alike. To be converted and saved, Christ must give a person (Jew or Gentile) both the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit. There is not even one exception shown in scripture.

Consider the marriage analogy. It (like many of Christ's teachings) teaches the pathway to salvation that includes a person receiving both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit.

In the marriage analogy, a person becomes espoused to Christ and is made into a virgin after Christ gives the person the Early Rain. Christ (Bridegroom) then goes away to prepare a place for His new bride. His absence is the time of waiting that a virgin endures between receiving the Early and Latter Rains.

The Bridegroom's return is commonly called the second coming of Christ. It is an individual coming to each of His Elect and is therefore a reoccurring return just as these verses state:

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne...

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Before Christ appears to His virgin (who has become unfaithful while He was away), He will pour out the Latter Rain upon them which will cause them to repent and be restored to faith. This is shown by the extra flask of oil the wise virgins use in the Ten Virgins parable. Now that the virgin is made ready for Christ's return, Christ will appear (spiritual blindness healed) gather His virgin to heaven for the marriage ceremony. Following the ceremony is the marriage supper where Christ will feed His new Bride the bread and Wine of the New Covenant (Rev 19). After the bride has been sufficient nourished, the Day of the Lord will commence to remove and destroy all the spiritual things within His Bride to purify her. This judgment is also shown in Mat 24:37-41. After this judgment is complete, the person will be converted.

Here is a very short verse that teaches the Early and Latter Rain concept:

Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

The "many" who are given the Early Rain and are called to be saints will fall on the stone (Christ) and be broken (become unfaithful). From that group of many though, a few will have the stone fall on them and grind them to powder. This is the Latter Rain that leads to conversion.

Another teaching that shows the Early and Latter Rain is the story of the woman taken in adultery. The woman represents the Elect. The first time Christ writes in the earth represents the Early Rain when He writes the law in the woman's heart. After the Early Rain, the Pharisees still accuse the woman of sin. Christ writes in the earth a second time which represents the Latter Rain. After the Latter Rain, the law can no longer accuse the woman so the Pharisees drop their stones and leave.

Another example is in Mark 8:15-25. It teaches how and when Christ heals a person's spiritual blindness. In the story, Christ takes a blind man out of the city and places spit on his eyes. This is the Early Rain. At that time, the blind man is looking down which represents the carnal aspect of his healing (the natural). When the man looks up, he sees men walking as trees. A tree is an unconverted believer (a babe) which he is now one. Christ then has the man look up ( the spiritual) and places spit on his eyes a second time. This is the Latter Rain. After the man opens his eyes, he sees every man clearly. His spiritual blindness is now healed.

There are many other examples of the Early and Latter Rain concept in Christ's teachings. They apply within each of His Elect.

Also, Christ is not "finished with" the Nation of Israel as you stated. All Israel will be saved but they will be last (after all the Gentiles are saved).

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Joel 2:1-27 presents in detail the salvation of the Nation of Israel in the final age. Christ's army represents the Elect/Bride. As the Elect are judging the Nation of Israel (v. 1-17), Christ will have pity upon them and show them mercy (v. 18). Because of His mercy, He will give them the Early and Latter Rains:

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

If the Early Rain only applies to the Nation of Israel as you content, then this scripture is in error. But it is not. It is your belief that is in error. Also, notice that the verse says that the Early and Latter Rains will both come in the first month. The time an Israelite will spend between receiving the Early and Latter Rains will be greatly shortened compared to the waiting time that occurs in this age for the Elect.

Joe

 

[David in NJ]

This is John 3:5 NASB
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless * one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God.


Some believe water to be:
The word of God
Baptismal water
Natural birth

There might be other understandings that are not listed.

I tend to go with either natural birth or baptismal water.
Either can seem correct to me.

Please state what you believe and why.
Appreciated...

Have you ever heard the term "her water broke" just before giving birth

 

[Exegesis]

Have you ever heard the term "her water broke" just before giving birth

Why cant the waters be masculine, from the male side?

 

[quietthinker]

This is John 3:5 NASB
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless * one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God.


Some believe water to be:
The word of God
Baptismal water
Natural birth

There might be other understandings that are not listed.

I tend to go with either natural birth or baptismal water.
Either can seem correct to me.

Please state what you believe and why.
Appreciated...

Jesus is speaking of two births; the natural one and the spiritual one; this is the context, therefore 'born of water' means the natural birth associated with the breaking of water. 'Born of the Spirit' is a production of God's.

The first one sees with natural eyes; it evaluates with natural eyes; it's MO is an eye for an eye; it's retaliation when you are crossed, it is tight fisted and revolves around the self. (MAGA is an example)

The second one see's with the eyes of God; they forgive before being asked to, they are generous in forgiveness, they do not hold a persons faults against them, they would rather die than be killed. They reflect Jesus.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Jesus is speaking of two births; the natural one and the spiritual one; this is the context, therefore 'born of water' means the natural birth associated with the breaking of water. 'Born of the Spirit' is a production of God's.

The first one sees with natural eyes; it evaluates with natural eyes; it's MO is an eye for an eye; it's retaliation when you are crossed, it is tight fisted and revolves around the self. (MAGA is an example)

The second one see's with the eyes of God; they forgive before being asked to, they are generous in forgiveness, they do not hold a persons faults against them, they would rather die than be killed. They reflect Jesus.

Water baptism was a public confession, not a nocturnal visit!!

 

[Hiddenthings]

The "Water" is incorporated in the Spirit which manifests itself characteristically...

14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
16 The Spirit himself (personified) bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God Rom 8:14-16

 

[David in NJ]

Why cant the waters be masculine, from the male side?

Good question - thank you

Because the topic that is being presented by the LORD is 'Birth' = unless one is "born" of water and the Spirit

 

[Exegesis]

Good question - thank you

Because the topic that is being presented by the LORD is 'Birth' = unless one is "born" of water and the Spirit

OK, thanks for that. Would you agree that 'born' can also mean Born of God?:

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

The 'waters' may be euphemism for the male seed as can be seen in the word 'mayim':

3. (by euphemism) urine, semen

Strong's Hebrew: 4325. מָ֫יִם (mayim) -- Water

This to me makes more sense because the 'waters' comes out the belly (loins?) of the masculine Father on the throne:

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Since the Lamb is symbolic of Abraham's Seed, it all seems to line up pretty well. Jesus was born of the 'waters' of the Father.

 

[ScottA]

Dear ScottA,
I have asked you for scripture to support your contention. However, you have provided none.

That's far enough.

If you actually knew the scriptures, you would have known that I was quoting them nearly verbatim, much of which I even gave in quotations or italicized.

You are in no position to say.

 

[FaithWillDo]

That's far enough.

If you actually knew the scriptures, you would have known that I was quoting them nearly verbatim, much of which I even gave in quotations or italicized.

You are in no position to say.

Dear ScottA,
I was aware of the scriptures you were paraphrasing but they do not apply to the Early and Latter Rain concept. That is probably why you did not post those scriptures.

You are violating this concept:

1Cor 4:6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.

Look at the importance Paul placed on receiving truth from scripture:

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

1Tim 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Evidently a teacher that you respect has taught you that the Early Rain applies to the Jewish Elect and the Latter Rain applies to the Gentiles because you could not have learned it from scripture. As I have said, there is no scripture that teaches the Early and Latter Rain concept as you are contending. And not only that, there are many scriptures which contradict it. Your understanding is pure conjecture and goes beyond what is written.

Joe

 

[ScottA]

Dear ScottA,
I was aware of the scriptures you were paraphrasing but they do not apply to the Early and Latter Rain concept. That is probably why you did not post those scriptures.

You are violating this concept:

1Cor 4:6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.

Look at the importance Paul placed on receiving truth from scripture:

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

1Tim 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Evidently a teacher that you respect has taught you that the Early Rain applies to the Jewish Elect and the Latter Rain applies to the Gentiles because you could not have learned it from scripture. As I have said, there is no scripture that teaches the Early and Latter Rain concept as you are contending. And not only that, there are many scriptures which contradict it. Your understanding is pure conjecture and goes beyond what is written.

Joe

You quote the scriptures, but you do not understand what you are quoting, and in your ignorance you judge me.

You quoted:

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

But you do not understand. How is the Fall rain also the Spring rain? How is David's Lord also his Son? How did Jesus save--both Israel and the Church, who came in their own times--in one day? You have not answered correctly, but you yourself who accuse me of conjecture and going beyond the scriptures, only have your own confused and cloudy ideas. You have not even considered that my "teacher" is God, and what I have told you is not only written, was also sealed--but given to me as foretold.

You are an offense.