I have my doubts that Catholicism is Christianity

[NotTheRock]

Mainstream Christianity essentially teaches that one is saved by their recognition of Jesus as their Lord and Savior along with a genuine desire to follow him by obeying his commandments.

Catholicism says that isn't enough. Catholicism says that one must be a member of THEIR church to be saved.

To me, that means that Catholicism isn't Christianity but rather Catholicism.

 

[Rockerduck]

You haven't got the first clue what I think is "good" works. You think you do because your kind always thinks you know more than you actually do. Sad but true. What I know is had Abraham NOT done what was asked, which he was free to do do, then his faith would have been meaningless.

what college did you graduate in theology from? Don't talk down to anyone you don't have clue from. That is ignorance. Feel free to friendly disagree, but don't throw barbs. I did graduate from a college of theology. So you don't believe what James said about Abraham doing what God told him to do? Then used Abraham as an example of "works", when he obeyed as he was told to do.

 

[nedsk]

what college did you graduate in theology from? Don't talk down to anyone you don't have clue from. That is ignorance. Feel free to friendly disagree, but don't throw barbs. I did graduate from a college of theology. So you don't believe what James said about Abraham doing what God told him to do? Then used Abraham as an example of "works", when he obeyed as he was told to do.

Don't tell me not to talk down to someone. None of you know anything about what I know yet you think you do. Your condescension about having graduated with a theology degree is repugnant. Bad teaching is bad teaching. Telling me you went to theology school doesn't impress me.

Where did I say I don't believe Abraham did what Go told him to do? See this is why I have little patience with you people. You only reply to the things in your head and not to what people actually said. Go back and see if you can decipher what I actually said about Abraham doing what God told him to do. When you do then you can get back to me.

 

[Rockerduck]

Don't tell me not to talk down to someone. None of you know anything about what I know yet you think you do. Your condescension about having graduated with a theology degree is repugnant. Bad teaching is bad teaching. Telling me you went to theology school doesn't impress me.

Where did I say I don't believe Abraham did what Go told him to do? See this is why I have little patience with you people. You only reply to the things in your head and not to what people actually said. Go back and see if you can decipher what I actually said about Abraham doing what God told him to do. When you do then you can get back to me.

You are going on ignore for your lack of compassion and not friendly conversion.

 

[nedsk]

You are going on ignore for your lack of compassion and not friendly conversion.

Thank you. It's fine by me. I don't have patience for these types of discussions with people who think they know everything about everybody. The sanctimonious tone of your previous post makes the point.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

So then we have to choose to do the works God has prepared for us like you claim. Correct? That means we are free not to do them. If that's the case then they don't just automatic flow from faith we have to choose to do them. Since it's a choice we are held accountable for what we choose to do and not do.

One day you'll actually think and won't just parrot rote responses.

One day you'll figure out what God's sovereignty means and our contributions to His plan are manifest in this: God causes all things to work for good, for those who love the Lord, for those who are called to His purpose.

 

[nedsk]

One day you'll figure out what God's sovereignty means and our contributions to His plan are manifest in this: God causes all things to work for good, for those who love the Lord, for those who are called to His purpose.

You didn't answer the question did you? Just more rote responses.

 

[mailmandan]

Faith without works is dead. Period. It's not salvific. It's not sufficient just to believe.

James does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith, and works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple!

Matthew 7:21

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord's will enter the kingdom of heaven but only the one who does the will of my heavenly Father."

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Matthew 25: 34-46. Who inherited the kingdom? the righteous who fed the hungry clothed the naked etc. who didn't? Those that failed to.

One group is made up of sheep and the other group is made up of goats. Their actions correspond to their nature. The good deeds mentioned is the fruit that will was manifested in the lives of the sheep. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because of their faith being accounted to them for righteousness/God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:5-6). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof). You must not confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. The end result is salvation by works/works righteousness.

 

[mailmandan]

None of them say faith alone is sufficient for salvation. They say faith is necessary not sufficient. You folks do understand what sufficient means right? If faith alone is all thats needed for salvation then faith would sufficient but thats not what Scripture says.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, (apart from additions or modifications, hence faith alone) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. *What happened to works?

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, (apart from additions or modifications, hence faith alone) and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

But the way you do realize that list you posted does include James 2:24 which explicitly says we are saved by works and not faith faith alone, right?

James did not say "saved" by works. That is your eisegesis. He said, "justified by works" and the word justified has more than one meaning. The Greek word for justified is dikaioō which can mean:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - fits the context.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In James 2:14, we read of one who SAYS/CLAIMS he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

 

[mailmandan]

But separated from faith its just a good deed. With faith it's salvific. Just as James 2: 21-22 says,

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? This you can see that his faith and his works were active together; his faith was brought to completion by works.

Beautiful

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

 

[nedsk]

Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, (apart from additions or modifications, hence faith alone) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. *What happened to works?

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, (apart from additions or modifications, hence faith alone) and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

James did not say "saved" by works. That is your eisegesis. He said, "justified by works" and the word justified has more than one meaning. The Greek word for justified is dikaioō which can mean:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - fits the context.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In James 2:14, we read of one who SAYS/CLAIMS he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

it doesnt say faith alone

 

[David Lamb]

it doesnt say faith alone

No it doesn't, but mailmandan was careful to add "(apart from additions or modifications, hence faith alone)," to show that he, as I do, sees the verses he quoted as saying that we are indeed saved by/through faith alone.

 

[mailmandan]

it doesnt say faith alone

You don't need to add the word "alone" next to faith in those passages of scripture in order to figure out that the word "faith" stands alone in connection with receiving salvation. Hence, FAITH ALONE. Do those passages of scripture say faith "plus something else?" Plus, works? NO. So, then it's faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: Get the picture?

It's either faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation or it's faith in Jesus Christ + works for salvation. You can't have it both ways.

 

[nedsk]

No it doesn't, but mailmandan was careful to add "(apart from additions or modifications, hence faith alone)," to show that he, as I do, sees the verses he quoted as saying that we are indeed saved by/through faith alone.

You guess have to stop ignoring things. James is quite clear, faith is completed by works, James 2:22. If faith alone was sufficent, it wouldnt need completion.

"In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." James 2 :17

"As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." James 2: 26

If faith was all that was needed then this is all BS.

 

[nedsk]

You don't need to add the word "alone" next to faith in those passages of scripture in order to figure out that the word "faith" stands alone in connection with receiving salvation. Hence, FAITH ALONE. Do those passages of scripture say faith "plus something else?" Plus, works? NO. So, then it's faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: Get the picture?

It's either faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation or it's faith in Jesus Christ + works for salvation. You can't have it both ways.

Thats not what scripture says though. You want to insist something is true when there is evidence to the contrary

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

When does praying to mary and twerking rosary beads come in to play

Don't catholics believe these are required to obtain salvation from the god they follow?

 

[David Lamb]

You guess have to stop ignoring things. James is quite clear, faith is completed by works, James 2:22. If faith alone was sufficent, it wouldnt need completion.

"In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." James 2 :17

"As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." James 2: 26

If faith was all that was needed then this is all BS.

I'm not ignoring things, assuming that is what you meant by, "You guess have to stop ignoring things." Works must follow faith. In other words, if somebody claims to have faith, if it results in no change to the life, no works, that shows that the faith is dead. But a person is saved by faith, not saved by works, as Paul wrote:

“8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:8-10 NKJV)

 

[Taken]

Both faith and works just as Scripture says. Just show from Scripture where it says faith is sufficient for salvation? "Faith alone" appears only once in Scripture, Luther jr.

Faith AND Works… is Scriptural.
Faith Alone… is Scriptural.

Those two distinct Differences Apply to two distinct individuals.

“Faith AND Works” applies to an accomplishment of men “IN” Christ.
* Their Faith is Heartful Belief, (before death), That Jesus, IS the CHRIST.
* Their Works is THAT ^ Confessed Belief, before death.
Their consequence… IS Salvation, Quickening Through CHRIST and Redemption by CHRIST the Lord, called Rapture.

“Faith Alone” applies to an accomplishment of men “IN” ( unConfessed ) Heartful Belief “IN” Jesus having Died and Rose up again to Life.
( Jesus Being the CHRIST is Void from their Belief, Works, Confession).
Their consequence…may be…(if they are alive in the end days)… subjection to the Lambs of Gods Wrath… for rejecting, Christ.).
Their consequence…(if they die before the Trib) IS…To Not partake in CHRISTS 1,000 yr reign… and instead WAIT ( for a 1,000 years, before God raises them up in the First resurrection.)

They who Neither…
Have Faith and Works (raised up IN Glory by Christ)
or Faith…(raised up IN Glory by God)
Shall be raised up (not in glory) judged, sentenced to Damnation, forgotten.)

Christ, God, mankind… of who does what and when and why…and the consequence thereof is revealed in the Written Word of God.

Every choice a man chooses…dictates his consequence, of what, when, why…that shall apply to such individual.
Not a secret…
Some men believe IN God…
Some men believe IN Jesus…
Some men believe IN Christ…
Some men Confess their Belief…
And some men… none of those beliefs apply.

Scripture reveals Believers…
Scripture reveals Confessed Believers…
Scripture reveals Deniers…
Obviously ALL Scripture IS TRUE…
And Obviously…
All Scripture DOES NOT Apply to each Individual.

 

[Taken]

Works must follow faith.

Faith IS a gift from God… FOR Hearing / (reading) The Word of God.

Works IS “WHAT”…?? Fellowshipping, lending a hand, charity, sharing Gods Word?
Yes those ARE Works….
But NOT works That Result IN receiving Salvation !!!
Those Works… Result in receiving “REWARDS”!!!

The Works… Which Result in “Receiving Salvation”…
Expressly Are “confession of ones Belief IN Christ”.

 

[nedsk]

I'm not ignoring things, assuming that is what you meant by, "You guess have to stop ignoring things." Works must follow faith. In other words, if somebody claims to have faith, if it results in no change to the life, no works, that shows that the faith is dead. But a person is saved by faith, not saved by works, as Paul wrote:

“8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:8-10 NKJV)

yes works must follow faith but its a choice. If there are no works the faith is useless. Works dont save but neither does faith by itself. im not claiming saves works anyone. Thats the mistake you folks make. its not either/or its both/and. faith is necessary it s NOT sufficient.