PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS

[David in NJ]

CYCLE 4 (received in heaven)

The Church and its onslaught from the devil (Ch 12) including a parallel view of the beast’s (the world anti-Christ system – intra-advent) persecution of the elect (Ch 13) and the simultaneous joy of the redeemed (Ch 14) in heaven (Ch 12-14).

Revelation 14:14-20 says, “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man (Christ), having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; For the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud (Christ) thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.”

The End!!!

CYCLE 5 (received in heaven)

Seven Vials (Ch 16)

If our supposition is to fit perfectly, the final vial, in keeping with the final trumpet, must be an unmistakable description of the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and the rapture of the saints. Similarly, it must also be a solemn picture of the outpouring of God’s wrath upon the wicked and the end of the world.

Revelation 16:17-21 declares, “And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, ‘It is done’ (or Gegonen). And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.”

The End!!!

CYCLE 6 (received in heaven)

Babylon (17-19)

Revelation 19:7-10 tells us, “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb."

Here is the great meeting in the air when Jesus comes. This is when the Church throughout time meets Christ in the air. This is the same scene portrayed in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.

His “wife” is said to have “made herself ready.”

Ready for what?

Ready, “for the marriage of the Lamb.” Whilst we (the Church) have been betrothed to Christ in salvation, the marriage will not be finally consummated until the Bridegroom comes.

Clearly “the marriage of the Lamb” to “his wife” is referring to the final consummation of the relationship between Christ and His bride – the Church – at the second coming. This woman with her innate purity is such a contrast to the whore in the introductory verses that is judged. The two women couldn’t be more diverse. One is judged the other is blessed. The status of the Lamb’s wife is outlined in the passage and confirms her honoured status; “And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.” The bride is the body of believers down through the years, which have placed their trust and eternity on the blood of Christ, whether in the old or the new economy.

The marriage union is the glorification feat where we are eternally changed in order to enjoy God forever – this is the final act of redemption. This is the marriage of the Lamb. In short, a prepared bride is made ready to unite with a prepared bridegroom. For this climactic event she is arrayed in the righteousness of Christ. This is her worthiness for marriage.

After “the marriage of the Lamb,” which is the glorification of the saints of all time (including the dead in Christ and the live in Christ), the saints return as an army (following Christ) to destroy the wicked. John continues, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword (the Word of God), that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall poimaino (or ‘shepherd’) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS” (Revelation 19:11-16).

Revelation 19:17-21 continues, “And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant (or those left behind) were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

The End!!!

Those who hold the Premillennialist position often advance this passage as support for their mistaken view that Christ is coming back to this earth to reign for a thousand years. However, the word poimaino in this reading which is rendered “rule” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of Shepherd and shepherding in Scripture.

The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with NO ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have attacked His sheep. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.

CYCLE 7 (received in heaven)

The figurative binding of Satan from the cross and the victorious reign of the saints in heaven. The ushering in of the New Heaven and the New Earth (Ch 20-22).

Here we have a great spiritual assault upon the Church just prior to the end. In keeping with the rest of Scripture, fire comes down from heaven and devours the wicked.

Revelation 20:11-15 says, “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

CONCLUSION

I don’t believe any open-minded objective Bible student could arrive at any conclusion other than the fact that Revelation is a number of similar parallels taking us up to the Second Advent (the day of God’s wrath) and the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). This pattern happens repeatedly through the New Testament. Also, they are clearly intra-advent.

AGREE with most and definitely your conclusion.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, I am aware that some early Christian were called "a kind of firstfruits"

Oh. This tired old, misused scripture.

Would it make any sense for Jesus to pray anything else. How about something like..........Father, please rapture my apostles to heaven so no one will be around to spread the Gospel.

This is an incredibly lame and weak response.

Jesus: I pray that you don't take them out of the world, but protect them from evil (John 17:15).

The Light: I don't care what Jesus says, please take us out of the world because I don't believe you can protect us from evil while we're in the world.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL. You mean you got nothing.

SO WHERE IS YOUR RAPTURE IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION?????????????????????????



However, is the Church mentioned in Revelation 6-19? No

This claim is a case of pure lunacy. Not to mention total insanity and utter foolishness.

The Church is mentioned SEVERAL TIMES in Revelation 6-19! You can't be serious with this nonsense. This forum should be for serious discussion, not made up jokes like this.

Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

You think fellow servants of "the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained" who would be "killed just as they had been" are not in the church? Get out of here with that nonsense. What a disgrace to claim that people willing to die for their faith in Christ are not in the church! You clearly have no understanding of the church whatsoever.

Revelation 7 refers to the 144,000 who have the seal of God. Do you know what the seal of God is? It's the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 1:22, Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30). You're going to try to tell me the 144,000 are not in the church? Think again!

Revelation 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

You think the great multitude that no one could count from all nations who worship Jesus are not the church? You can't be serious!

Revelation 11 describes two witnesses who are seen by people all around the world and they are described as two candlesticks or lampstands and as two olive trees. In Revelation 1:19 candlesticks/lampstands symbolically represent churches. In Romans 11, Paul describes branches from a wild olive tree, representing Gentile believers, being grafted into the natural or cultivated olive tree representing the Israel of God with Israelite believers. The two witnesses symbolically represent Jew and Gentile believers preaching the gospel as one body of Christ, the church, which is represented by the cultivated olive tree.

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

You think that those who "keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus" are not in the Church? Who else but those in the Church keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus"? No one else, that's who. How in the world can you deny that Revelation 12:17 is referring to those who are in the Church? That's insane.

Revelation 13:7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

You think "the saints" aren't in the Church? All who are in the Church are saints.

Romans 8:27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

The Holy Spirit make intercession for the saints, which are those who love God and are the called according to His purpose. Do you think the Holy Spirit makes intercession for anyone but those who are in the Church? No, He does not. He doesn't make intercession for those who reject Christ.

The 144,000 are mentioned again and it says they follow the Lamb where He goes (Rev 14:4). You think those who follow the Lamb are not in the Church?

Revelation 14:12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus. 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” ”Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

You think that "those who keep the commands of God and remain faithful to Jesus", which is a similar description as those described in Revelation 12:17, are not the Church? Who else are in the church except "those who keep the commands of God and remain faithful to Jesus"?

Revelation 19:7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”

You think the Lamb's bride isn't the Church?

Did you even read Revelation 6-19? How can you miss all these references to the Church?

 

[The Light]

Again, no answer to the truth! Typical!

I saw the rehash of the cycles that your denomination has put forth. Spiritual Israelite loved it.............Like he has never seen it before......and you came up with it with hard study...........LOL.

I gave no answer because I stepped out for lunch.

I don't need a whole cycle nonsense to go through..........what chapter and verse is your rapture? If I missed it among your cut and paste, I apologize.

 

[The Light]

This is an incredibly lame and weak response.

Jesus: I pray that you don't take them out of the world, but protect them from evil (John 17:15).

The Light: I don't care what Jesus says, please take us out of the world because I don't believe you can protect us from evil while we're in the world.

He is talking about the Apostles.

As for your comment, Israel, the woman, will be in a place of protection, so what you say is irrelevant. The Church is already in heaven before the tribulation.

 

[David in NJ]

I saw the rehash of the cycles that your denomination has put forth. Spiritual Israelite loved it.............Like he has never seen it before......and you came up with it with hard study...........LOL.

I gave no answer because I stepped out for lunch.

I don't need a whole cycle nonsense to go through..........what chapter and verse is your rapture? If I missed it among your cut and paste, I apologize.

JESUS Says: "Immediately after the Tribulation of those days..........I Come"

JESUS Says it again in Revelation to the seven churches.

JESUS Says it again in Revelation 6:9-11 = the 5th Seal

Who told you not to believe JESUS?

 

[WPM]

I do not typically respond to much of the nonsense that you find on some of these online videos. But, because the early Church fathers were brought into the equation, I feel compelled to respond. That is just in case someone believes the lies that are being perpetrated here. I will address some of the false claims he makes in this misleading video and the lies perpetrated.

Also, the guy is full of himself. He is full of pride. One can pick that up right away in the video. Anyone who's not Pretrib is written off as a child of the devil. His arrogance needs challenged and his lies need exposed.

It is clear from the video that this guy does not have a clue. He is clearly not research this for himself. He is totally winging it. His ignorance, prejudice and bitterness are hanging out of his rhetoric. He is depending upon the lies and distortions of others.

The Shepherd of Hermas, Rome, Italy (written in AD 88-99)​

Fourth Vision

Chapter II

Now after I had passed by the wild beast, and had moved forward about thirty feet, lo! a virgin meets me, adorned as if she were proceeding from the bridal chamber, clothed entirely in white, and with white sandals, and veiled up to her forehead, and her head was covered by a hood. And she had white hair. I knew from my former visions that this was the Church, and I became more joyful. She saluted me, and said, “Hail, O man!” And I returned her salutation, and said, “Lady, hail!” And she answered, and said to me, “Has nothing crossed your path?” I say, “I was met by a beast of such a size that it could destroy peoples, but through the power of the Lord and His great mercy I escaped from it.” “Well did you escape from it,” says she, “because you cast your care on God, and opened your heart to the Lord, believing that you can be saved by no other than by His great and glorious name. On this account the Lord has sent His angel, who has rule over the beasts, and whose name is Thegri, and has shut up its mouth, so that it cannot tear you. You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly. Cast your cares upon the Lord, and He will direct them. Trust the Lord, ye who doubt, for He is all-powerful, and can turn His anger away from you, and send scourges on the doubters. Woe to those who hear these words, and despise them: better were it for them not to have been born.”

Chapter III

I asked her about the four colours which the beast had on his head. And she answered, and said to me, “Again you are inquisitive in regard to such matters.” “Yea, Lady,” said I, “make known to me what they are.” “Listen,” said she: “the black is the world in which we dwell: but the fiery and bloody points out that the world must perish through blood and fire: but the golden part are you who have escaped from this world. For as gold is tested by fire, and thus becomes useful, so are you tested who dwell in it. Those, therefore, who continue stedfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it. For as gold casts away its dross, so also will ye cast away all sadness and straitness, and will be made pure so as to fit into the building of the tower. But the white part is the age that is to come, in which the elect of God will dwell, since those elected by God to eternal life will be spotless and pure. Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come. If ye wish it, it will be nothing. Remember those things which were written down before.” And saying this, she departed. But I saw not into what place she retired. There was a noise, however, and I turned round in alarm, thinking that that beast was coming.

This in no way supports Pretrib. Hermas believed that the tribulation period was a current ongoing reality for the genuine believer. There was no escapist theology attached to his teaching. He believed the second coming was the end! Hermas wasn't even a Premil, he was an Amil.

Clement, Bishop of Rome, Italy (Died around AD 99)​

1 Clement

Chapter 9. Examples of the Saints.

Wherefore, let us yield obedience to His excellent and glorious will; and imploring His mercy and loving-kindness, while we forsake all fruitless labours and strife, and envy, which leads to death, let us turn and have recourse to His compassions. Let us steadfastly contemplate those who have perfectly ministered to his excellent glory. Let us take (for instance) Enoch, who, being found righteous in obedience, was translated, and death was never known to happen to him. Noah, being found faithful, preached regeneration to the world through his ministry; and the Lord saved by him the animals which, with one accord, entered into the ark.

This in no way supports Pretrib. Anyway, Clement also was an Amil, not a Premil.

Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons, Gaul, now France, (AD 150)​

Against Heresies Book V

Chapter XXIX (29).

1. In the previous books I have set forth the causes for which God permitted these things to be made, and have pointed out that all such have been created for the benefit of that human nature which is saved, ripening for immortality that which is [possessed] of its own free will and its own power, and preparing and rendering it more adapted for eternal subjection to God. And therefore the creation is suited to [the wants of] man; for man was not made for its sake, but creation for the sake of man. Those nations, however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;” so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

Pretribbers use this last line to make Irenaeus a Pretribber. But they miss (or twist) what he was saying: “‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be’. For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

Irenaeus exegetes the text for us and applies it to the last battle the righteous fight against the wicked before the second coming. This is the last battle between righteousness and unrighteousness. The elect therefore endure through the tribulation and are caught up when Jesus comes at the one final future coming of Christ.

 

[WPM]

Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage, North Africa, (AD 200-258)​

On The Mortality (or Plague)

Chapter 25

And this, as it ought always to be done by God's servants, much more ought to be done now— now that the world is collapsing and is oppressed with the tempests of mischievous ills; in order that we who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. If in your dwelling the walls were shaking with age, the roofs above you were trembling, and the house, now worn out and wearied, were threatening an immediate destruction to its structure crumbling with age, would you not with all speed depart? If, when you were on a voyage, an angry and raging tempest, by the waves violently aroused, foretold the coming shipwreck, would you not quickly seek the harbour? Lo, the world is changing and passing away, and witnesses to its ruin not now by its age, but by the end of things. And do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an earlier departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent?

Pretribulationalists try to use this quote as support for a Pretrib rapture. But where does it teach that? Nowhere! Also, He was an Amil.

This is talking about the impending destruction that is approaching.

Victorinus, Pettau, Upper Pannonia (modern Slovenia) (AD 270)​

Commentary on the Apocalypse

5th Chapter

13. And the stars fell to the earth. The falling of the stars are the faithful who are troubled for Christ's sake. Even as a fig-tree casts her untimely figs. The fig-tree, when shaken, loses its untimely figs — when men are separated from the Church by persecution.
14. And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up. For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. And every mountain and the islands were moved from their places. Mountains and islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid the persecution.

Some Pretribbers have recently used this quote to insinuate that Victorinus was a Pretribber. But they miss what he was saying. Revelation 6:13-14 is not a Pretrib rapture. Their rapture happens in Revelation 4:1, even though there is no mention of the Church in that verse, and that it is referring to John getting caught up into heaven 2000 years ago. So, I am shocked that they would say he was Pretrib.

What is more the Church is still on earth in Revelation 12:6 and Revelation 13:13.

Revelation 12:6 states: “But the woman fled into the wilderness, and there were given to her two great eagle's wings. The aid of the great eagle's wings — to wit, the gift of prophets— was given to that Catholic Church, whence in the last times a hundred and forty-four thousands of men should believe in the preaching of Elias.”

Revelation 13:13: “Thence here he places, and by and by here he renews, that of which the Lord, admonishing His churches concerning the last times and their dangers, says: But when you shall see the contempt which is spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place, let him who reads understand. It is called a contempt when God is provoked, because idols are worshipped instead of God, or when the dogma of heretics is introduced in the churches. But it is a turning away because steadfast men, seduced by false signs and portents, are turned away from their salvation.”

This is totally contrary to Pretrib doctrine!

 

[WPM]

Ephraem, Nisibis, Syria, (AD 306-373)​

On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World

Section 2

We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!" For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!

He was an Amil. Tribulation here and wrath are synonymous. Ephraem notably locates this all at “the end of the world.” The elect are said to be rescued before the pouring out of the destructive fire at the end of the world. Antichrist is also shown to appear before this climactic event.

When Pseudo-Ephraem speaks about “the tribulation that is to come” he identifies it with “the day of the Lord." For him, the wrath of God and the tribulation are synonymous. It is the destruction of the wicked and wickedness upon Christ’s return.

II Thessalonians 1:4-10 records: “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

The confusion that occurs on that day emanates from their failure to escape from the wrath of God. Whilst the righteous are caught up, the wicked are caught on. Christ immediately returns with His glorified saints to destroy the wicked. Pseudo-Ephraem identifies the “confusion” with the day of the Lord not a supposed Pretrib rapture 7 years earlier. The day of the Lord sees the rescue of the saints (he says, “Arise, O sleeping ones, arise, meet Christ, because his hour of judgment has come!”) and the destruction of the wicked (he says, “Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the spirit of his mouth. And he shall be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss of everlasting fire alive with his father Satan; and all people, who do his wishes, shall perish with him forever; but the righteous ones shall inherit everlasting life with the Lord forever and ever”). This is an all-consummating event in Pseudo-Ephraem’s estimation.

Pseudo-Ephraem says in Section 10 of his writing, “on the day which the enemy of son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty, with the sign of the wood of salvation going before him, and also even with all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints, with those who bear the sign of the holy cross upon their shoulders, as the angelic trumpet precedes him, which shall sound and declare: Arise, O sleeping ones, arise, meet Christ, because his hour of judgment has come! Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the spirit of his mouth. And he shall be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss of everlasting fire alive with his father Satan; and all people, who do his wishes, shall perish with him forever; but the righteous ones shall inherit everlasting life with the Lord forever and ever.”

Pseudo-Ephraem alludes to Christ’s words in Matthew 24:29-31, which says, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

The wicked are completely destroyed by the tribulation of God that is poured out when He returns. There are no survivors. This is the time when the righteous are rescued (resurrected) – “Arise, O sleeping ones, arise, meet Christ, because his hour of judgment has come!” - and the righteous “inherit everlasting life with the Lord forever and ever.”

Also, it is wrong for Pretribbers to force their 7 years trib into his writings as he never taught such. In fact, he does not mention 7 years.

John Chrysostom Archbishop of Constantinople, Turkey (AD 349–407)​

Homily 8 on First Thessalonians

When these things then are done, then also will be the voice of the Archangel shouting and commanding the Angels, and the trumpets, or rather the sound of the trumpet. What trembling then, what fear will possess those that remain upon the earth. For one woman is caught up and another is left behind, and one man is taken, and another is passed over. What will be the state of their souls, when they see some indeed taken up, but themselves left behind? Will not these things be able to shake their souls more terribly than any hell? Let us represent then in word that this is now present. For if sudden death, or earthquakes in cities, and threatenings thus terrify our souls; when we see the earth breaking up, and crowded with all these, when we hear the trumpets, and the voice of the Archangel louder than any trumpet, when we perceive the heaven shriveled up, and God the King of all himself coming near — what then will be our souls? Let us shudder, I beseech you, and be frightened as if these things were now taking place. Let us not comfort ourselves by the delay. For when it must certainly happen, the delay profits us nothing…

You have heard of the deluge. And were those things also said by way of threat? Did they not actually happen? Those men too said many such things, and for a hundred years while the ark was building, and the wood was being wrought, and the righteous man was calling aloud, there was no one who believed. But because they did not believe the threat in words, they suffered the punishment in very deed. And this will be our fate too, if we shall not have believed. On this account it is that He compares His coming with the days of Noah, because as some disbelieved in that deluge, so will they in the deluge of hell. Were these things a threat? Were they not a fact? Then will not He, who then brought punishment upon them so suddenly, much more inflict it now also?

He was an Amil.

 

[The Light]

This claim is a case of pure lunacy. Not to mention total insanity and utter foolishness.

The Church is mentioned SEVERAL TIMES in Revelation 6-19! You can't be serious with this nonsense. This forum should be for serious discussion, not made up jokes like this.

Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

You think fellow servants of "the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained" who would be "killed just as they had been" are not in the church? Get out of here with that nonsense. What a disgrace to claim that people willing to die for their faith in Christ are not in the church! You clearly have no understanding of the church whatsoever.

They are Jews. They get victory over the beast with the blood of the Lamb. They sing the song of Moses.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Revelation 7 refers to the 144,000 who have the seal of God. Do you know what the seal of God is? It's the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 1:22, Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30). You're going to try to tell me the 144,000 are not in the church? Think again!

Today's Church will be in heaven before the 144,000 are sealed. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in part of Israel will have their blindness removed.

Revelation 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

You think the great multitude that no one could count from all nations who worship Jesus are not the church? You can't be serious!

Todays Church will certainly be part of the great multitude. The other part of the great multitude will be of the 12 tribes of Israel. The 144,000 are first fruits of the second harvest which occurs at the 6th seal.

Revelation 11 describes two witnesses who are seen by people all around the world and they are described as two candlesticks or lampstands and as two olive trees. In Revelation 1:19 candlesticks/lampstands symbolically represent churches. In Romans 11, Paul describes branches from a wild olive tree, representing Gentile believers, being grafted into the natural or cultivated olive tree representing the Israel of God with Israelite believers. The two witnesses symbolically represent Jew and Gentile believers preaching the gospel as one body of Christ, the church, which is represented by the cultivated olive tree.

Great.

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

You think that those who "keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus" are not in the Church? Who else but those in the Church keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus"? No one else, that's who. How in the world can you deny that Revelation 12:17 is referring to those who are in the Church? That's insane.

Todays Church will be in heaven before the great tribulation. Those that get victory over the beast sing the song of Moses, they are Jews. When the dragon cannot get to the woman, Israel, he goes after her seed. These are the 12 tribes across the earth. They keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

You think "the saints" aren't in the Church? All who are in the Church are saints.

These are Jews. They sing the song of Moses. Todays Church is already in heaven before the tribulation which is why we see kings and priests in Revelation 5. Additionally the 24 elders have crowns which proof that Jesus has come.

The 144,000 are mentioned again and it says they follow the Lamb where He goes (Rev 14:4). You think those who follow the Lamb are not in the Church?

They are not todays Church. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in there are 144,000 from the 12 tribes that will be redeemed from the earth as 1st fruits.

Revelation 14:12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus. 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” ”Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

This is the 5th seal.

You think that "those who keep the commands of God and remain faithful to Jesus", which is a similar description as those described in Revelation 12:17, are not the Church? Who else are in the church except "those who keep the commands of God and remain faithful to Jesus"?

There are two folds. Todays Church is the first fold. Then God will keep His promise to His Chosen.

Revelation 19:7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”

You think the Lamb's bride isn't the Church?

Did you even read Revelation 6-19? How can you miss all these references to the Church?

The great multitude is made up of two folds. The first fold is todays Church. The second fold will be of the 12 tribes across the earth that is the seed of the woman, Israel. There are 144,000 first fruits of the second fold.

 

[WPM]

I saw the rehash of the cycles that your denomination has put forth. Spiritual Israelite loved it.............Like he has never seen it before......and you came up with it with hard study...........LOL.

I gave no answer because I stepped out for lunch.

I don't need a whole cycle nonsense to go through..........what chapter and verse is your rapture? If I missed it among your cut and paste, I apologize.

Hello! Read it and you will see. Each cycle finishes with a different camera view of the one and only future coming of Jesus Christ. Each focuses on a different aspect of that climatic event or different entities. The show the rescue of God speak pool, the destruction of the wicked, and the end of the world. Take the time to read this and you will be enlightened. It will expose your Pretrib error.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He is talking about the Apostles.

Keep reading.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

They are Jews. They get victory over the beast with the blood of the Lamb. They sing the song of Moses.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Are they somehow not in the Church despite getting victory by the blood of the Lamb? What kind of nonsense is that?

Today's Church will be in heaven before the 144,000 are sealed. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in part of Israel will have their blindness removed.


Todays Church will certainly be part of the great multitude. The other part of the great multitude will be of the 12 tribes of Israel. The 144,000 are first fruits of the second harvest which occurs at the 6th seal.


Great.

Todays Church will be in heaven before the great tribulation. Those that get victory over the beast sing the song of Moses, they are Jews. When the dragon cannot get to the woman, Israel, he goes after her seed. These are the 12 tribes across the earth. They keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


These are Jews. They sing the song of Moses. Todays Church is already in heaven before the tribulation which is why we see kings and priests in Revelation 5. Additionally the 24 elders have crowns which proof that Jesus has come.



They are not todays Church. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in there are 144,000 from the 12 tribes that will be redeemed from the earth as 1st fruits.

This is the 5th seal.


There are two folds. Todays Church is the first fold. Then God will keep His promise to His Chosen.


The great multitude is made up of two folds. The first fold is todays Church. The second fold will be of the 12 tribes across the earth that is the seed of the woman, Israel. There are 144,000 first fruits of the second fold.

LOL! What is all this "Today's Church" nonsense? We're talking about the Church in general here and you foolishly deny that the Church is referenced at all in Revelation 6-19 despite it being referenced several times. Do you deny that those who keep God's commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ and remain faithful to Jesus are in the Church? Yes or no?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I saw the rehash of the cycles that your denomination has put forth. Spiritual Israelite loved it.............Like he has never seen it before......and you came up with it with hard study...........LOL.

LOL. You are so petty. Who cares if I have seen it before? I can't love it just because I've seen it before? That's ridiculous. Are you jealous because no one ever loves any of your ridiculous posts? That view makes a lot more sense of the book than reading it all (or mostly all) chronologically from beginning to end like most people do.

 

[WPM]

I saw the rehash of the cycles that your denomination has put forth. Spiritual Israelite loved it.............Like he has never seen it before......and you came up with it with hard study...........LOL.

I gave no answer because I stepped out for lunch.

I don't need a whole cycle nonsense to go through..........what chapter and verse is your rapture? If I missed it among your cut and paste, I apologize.

You avoided it then and you avoid it now. You have to! You have no answer to the truth.

 

[The Light]

Hello! Read it and you will see. Each cycle finishes with a different camera view of the one and only future coming of Jesus Christ. Each focuses on a different aspect of that climatic event or different entities. The show the rescue of God speak pool, the destruction of the wicked, and the end of the world. Take the time to read this and you will be enlightened. It will expose your Pretrib error.

So you cannot produce a chapter and verse that your rapture occurs in?

 

[The Light]

You avoided it then and you avoid it now. You have to! You have no answer to the truth.

You demand an answer about the rapture and yet you cannot provide your own demand.

I'll look at it.

 

[The Light]

JESUS Says: "Immediately after the Tribulation of those days..........I Come"

Right. That occurs at the 6th seal not the 7th trumpets.

 

[WPM]

So you cannot produce a chapter and verse that your rapture occurs in?

I did. You're just being obtuse. You are avoiding it because it exposes your error.

Your doctrine and is in tatters. It is totally dead. You've no answer to the truth.

 

[WPM]

You demand an answer about the rapture and yet you cannot provide your own demand.

I'll look at it.

There is a reason why you continually avoid. There is a reason why you have no rebuttal to it.