Crucifixion Question

[Titus]

First, we are not told that he was baptized, and second, how could he have been baptized whilst hanging on a cross?

That's right, we aren't told he was baptized. We also aren't told he was not yet you speculate he wasnt.

Did the thief hang on the cross His entire life?
We don't know anything about his life before the cross.
All we know is he was a thief and the Romans chose to punish him for it with crucifixion.

Do we know how long he lived as a thief? No.
Do we know why he stole? No.
Do we know his reasoning for stealing? No.
Do we know if he he only stole once or multiple times? No.

Also, I would say that it was because he new he didn't have a good heart which is why he needed to repent, and needed a Saviour.

Yes he sinned as we all do. His heart wasn't right as all of us do sin against God.
But just like folks who have fallen but repent because they love God, he did the same.

I stop condemning people of their sin when they repent of it.
Too many continue to condemn others of their sins even after they repent.
Repentance is a CHANGE of heart.

As I said before, both he and his fellow-thief had mocked Jesus on the cross to start with. Mocking the Saviour doesn't result from having a good heart.

Not every gospel says he mocked Jesus.
Matthew and Mark but not Luke.
I'm not sure he did.
The Bible uses figures of speech just as we do in all languages today.

The books that do say they mocked Jesus could be using a figure of speech known as Synecdoche.
Its possible Matthew and Mark used the plural in place of the singular in their accounts of the thieves reviling Christ.

Heres another example of a plural used for a singular.
Genesis 8:4 indicates Noah's ark rested on the mountains of Ararat.
Did Noah's ark rest on one of the mountains of Ararat or did it rest on all of them?
Noah's ark was huge but obviously was not large enough to rest on all the mountains of Ararat.
It rested on one.

Genesis 21:7 Sarah asked, Who would have said to Abraham that Sarah would nurse  children
Sarah nursed a son.

We cannot be dogmatic and say both or only one thief mocked Jesus.

Lastly, I love your quote from Psalm 19

Good, let us both put it into practice.

 

[David Lamb]

That's right, we aren't told he was baptized. We also aren't told he was not yet you speculate he wasnt.

Did the thief hang on the cross His entire life?

Of course not.

We don't know anything about his life before the cross.

All we know is he was a thief and the Romans chose to punish him for it with crucifixion.

Yes we know he was a thief/robber, and we know from the record of the crucifixion that he was a mocker of Jesus.

Do we know how long he lived as a thief? No.
Do we know why he stole? No.
Do we know his reasoning for stealing? No.
Do we know if he he only stole once or multiple times? No.


Yes he sinned as we all do. His heart wasn't right as all of us do sin against God.
But just like folks who have fallen but repent because they love God, he did the same.

I stop condemning people of their sin when they repent of it.
Too many continue to condemn others of their sins even after they repent.
Repentance is a CHANGE of heart.


Not every gospel says he mocked Jesus.
Matthew and Mark but not Luke.
I'm not sure he did.

So don't you believe in things, or are unsure of things, that are recorded by Matthew but not by the other gospel writers? Things like the wise men visiting the young Jesus, Herod's killing of the young boys, the journey of Mary, Joseph and Jesus to Egypt, for example?

The Bible uses figures of speech just as we do in all languages today.

The books that do say they mocked Jesus could be using a figure of speech known as Synecdoche.
Its possible Matthew and Mark used the plural in place of the singular in their accounts of the thieves reviling Christ.

Really? I thought a synecdoche was a figure of speech in which a part is made to represent the whole, as in England lost by six wickets (meaning ‘the English cricket team’). Are you saying that Matthew and Mark used the plural, when in fact, according to you, only one robber mocked Jesus?

Heres another example of a plural used for a singular.
Genesis 8:4 indicates Noah's ark rested on the mountains of Ararat.
Did Noah's ark rest on one of the mountains of Ararat or did it rest on all of them?
Noah's ark was huge but obviously was not large enough to rest on all the mountains of Ararat.
It rested on one.

Genesis 21:7 Sarah asked, Who would have said to Abraham that Sarah would nurse  children
Sarah nursed a son.

But those examples don't mean that every time we come across a plurality in Scripture, it must be a synecdoche. For instance:

“Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to Him, saying, “Teacher, we want You to do for us whatever we ask.” And He said to them, “What do you want Me to do for you?” They said to Him, “Grant us that we may sit, one on Your right hand and the other on Your left, in Your glory.”” (Mr 10:35-37 NKJV)

We surely don't assume that only one of them approached Jesus with the request.

We cannot be dogmatic and say both or only one thief mocked Jesus.

Unless there is clear evidence that Mark and Matthew were using a figure of speech, then both of them mocked Jesus.

Good, let us both put it into practice.

Thanks for replying.

 

[Titus]

Yes we know he was a thief/robber, and we know from the record of the crucifixion that he was a mocker of Jesus

Luke doesn't say he was only one.
Luke 23:39-43,
- and  one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on Jesus saying, if thou be the Christ save thyself and us

But the other(the thief who repented) answering rebuked him saying, Dost thou not fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation


Now listen to what our subject matter says about Jesus,
Verse 41,
- and indeed justly for we receive the due reward of our works but this man(Jesus) hath done nothing amiss
and he said unto Jesus, Lord remember me when thou comest into thy Kingdom

So no I will not speculate as you have and be dogmatic one way or the other,

So don't you believe in things, or are unsure of things, that are recorded by Matthew but not by the other gospel writers? Things like the wise men visiting the young Jesus, Herod's killing of the young boys, the journey of Mary, Joseph and Jesus to Egypt, for example?

Your other examples do not equate with different accounts of what was said of the thief on the cross.
Nothing said has nothing to compare to another writer.
Your reasoning is flawed. Luke didn't say the thief mocked Jesus.
By your reasoning of the scriptures Luke or Matthew has to be wrong. You are causing conflict among the gospel accounts by claiming the thief did mock Jesus while another writer of the gospel said he did not.
Poor hermeneutics.

Really? I thought a synecdoche was a figure of speech in which a part is made to represent the whole, as in England lost by six wickets (meaning ‘the English cricket team’). Are you saying that Matthew and Mark used the plural, when in fact, according to you, only one robber mocked Jesus?

Synecdoche is the part representing the whole or the reverse.
This figure of speech can be used both ways.

But those examples don't mean that every time we come across a plurality in Scripture, it must be a synecdoche. For instance

I agree, I never said every time pluralilty is used in scripture it MUST be Synecdoche.
Context determines what language is being used.

We surely don't assume that only one of them approached Jesus with the request

I never use assumptions when interpreting scripture.

Unless there is clear evidence that Mark and Matthew were using a figure of speech, then both of them mocked Jesus.

Its possible both did.
But to claim that they did is an awful hard claim to prove with Scripture.
I believe it's an assumption.
Just like claiming the thief on the cross wasnt baptized.

Thanks for replying

Good discussing Bible with you.

 

[David Lamb]

Luke doesn't say he was only one.
Luke 23:39-43,
- and  one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on Jesus saying, if thou be the Christ save thyself and us

But the other(the thief who repented) answering rebuked him saying, Dost thou not fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation

Yes I know there were two robbers crucified with Jesus. I didn't think I had said there was only one. Sorry if I gave you that impression.

Now listen to what our subject matter says about Jesus,
Verse 41,
- and indeed justly for we receive the due reward of our works but this man(Jesus) hath done nothing amiss
and he said unto Jesus, Lord remember me when thou comest into thy Kingdom

So no I will not speculate as you have and be dogmatic one way or the other,

I wasn't speculating, just reading what the bible says.

Your other examples do not equate with different accounts of what was said of the thief on the cross.
Nothing said has nothing to compare to another writer.
Your reasoning is flawed. Luke didn't say the thief mocked Jesus.
By your reasoning of the scriptures Luke or Matthew has to be wrong. You are causing conflict among the gospel accounts by claiming the thief did mock Jesus while another writer of the gospel said he did not.
Poor hermeneutics.

Sorry, I was answering what you wrote: "Not every gospel says he mocked Jesus. Matthew and Mark but not Luke. I'm not sure he did." That is why I mentioned the wise men, Herod, and the flight to Egypt, because they are mentioned only by Matthew, not by Mark, Luke or John. I certainly wasn't trying to cause conflict among the gospel accounts.

Synecdoche is the part representing the whole or the reverse.
This figure of speech can be used both ways.


I agree, I never said every time pluralilty is used in scripture it MUST be Synecdoche.
Context determines what language is being used.


I never use assumptions when interpreting scripture.


Its possible both did.
But to claim that they did is an awful hard claim to prove with Scripture.
I believe it's an assumption.
Just like claiming the thief on the cross wasnt baptized.


Good discussing Bible with you.

Good discussing with you, too. Thank you!

 

[Hiddenthings]

How does Jesus dying, and being crucified on the cross, equate to forgiving everyone's sins? How does Jesus dying equate to that forgiveness of sin for mankind? How does his blood then equate to the forgiveness of sin?

Traditional Christian teaching cannot answer these questions.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@FinnleyGraves

Do you understand the difference between substitutionary atonement and representative atonement?

The first is error while the second is deeply rooted in Scripture-based reasoning, with an emphasis on God’s righteousness, human nature, and moral transformation.

There are numerous issues with the substitutionary atonement model, and upon closer examination, its core principles do not hold up under the scrutiny of Scripture.