IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[keithr]

we are joint heirs with Christ Jesus and we get what He got which is our physical bodies resurrected and glorified and untouchable by death just like the Lord Jesus has right now.

You are misunderstanding the point the scripture makes about a spiritual body

A spiritual body for man is a physical body that has been glorified, like Jesus has.

Jesus has a spiritual body right now seats at the Right Hand of the Father which is His same physical Body that has been glorified and He still has the scars in His hands and in His side.

1 Corinthians 15 (WEB):

(37) That which you sow, you don’t sow the body that will be, but a bare grain, maybe of wheat, or of some other kind.​

(38) But God gives it a body even as it pleased him, and to each seed a body of its own.​

(44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.​

1 Corinthians 15:46-49 (ASV):

(46) Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.​

(47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is of heaven.​

(48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.​

(49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.​

 

[Scott Downey]

Christians that die before Christ's return are dead (or "sleeping" as Jesus refers to it) - they are not immediately restored to life, nor taken to be with Jesus. As Paul explained, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (WEB):

(15) For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.​

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,​

(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

So the dead Christians are dead and still on the earth (they are not alive, living with Jesus in heaven), and they are not restored to life until just before the living Christians are changed in the "twinkling of an eye", and then the whole Church is raptured, taken up to meet Jesus in the earth's atmosphere, after which Jesus takes us to heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (WEB):

(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,​

(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​

(53) For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

(54) But when this perishable body will have become imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then what is written will happen: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”​

That is about the resurrected body, but not the spirit of a man.
Think about it, it is not the spirit being resurrected as believers are new creations in Christ, alive in Him.
And your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Since your life is hid with Christ, and Christ was raised, we also were raised with Christ, and we are spiritually of the first resurrection which is Christ. God raised us up together, both Christ and us, how can we not have a part in His resurrection, that would be illogical. And He is the first resurrection with a glorified body.

5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Meaning we partake in His resurrection.
Christ is also the firstfruits of them who have fallen asleep, as in bodily died
Since Christ is raised, we are alive in Him and with Him, so not unconscious or non existing.

Before Christ ascended, Christ was resurrected into a glorified body
Yes, we do not yet have a glorified body, but our spirits are born of God and have eternal life from the moment we believed in Christ.

John 5

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

 

[Fred J]

The rapture is pre-wrath not pre-trib. God's faithful are NOT appointed unto wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9) whether one believes it's the devil's wrath or the wrath of the Lord. NOT appointed unto wrath actually means: NOT appointed unto wrath

If you have made up your mind that you are going thru the great tribulation then have a good time and don't forget to send a post card!

Maybe the anti-christ will be selling selfies with people right as the guillotine is taking off their head

Just haughty and being wise in your own conceit, small boy Johnson.

Revelation 20:
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of GOD, and which had not worshipped the 'beast', neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

[Scott Downey]

Just haughty and being wise in your own conceit, small boy Johnson.

Revelation 20:
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of GOD, and which had not worshipped the 'beast', neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

These thrones are in Heaven and they rule there with Christ, where He is.

 

[rebuilder 454]

There's no pretrib rapture, but midtrib rapture which is the first resurrection.

Anti-Christ's appearance in the world marks the beginning of the Great Tribulation.

During his reign, the church were persecuted for the testimony of Christ and the word of GOD. Ones who did not worship the beast nor his image, nor received his mark in their forehead or hands. These are ones who are dead or alive and remain, were included in the first resurrection, together with those who are dead in Christ since the beginning.

Since from the beginning of Christ till His death and resurrection, He's alone the firstfruit of resurrection. And none of the Apostles to the church after Him have been resurrected, until on the first resurrection.

So, how can you testify about pretrib rapture, when there's no such thing?



The above is just your spin of things that are not tangible to the scripture.

There's no such testament as the unjust or unrighteous left behind, carnal and mock the Lord's return, were persecuted by anti-Christ.


Not all them are killed

QUOTE
"There's no such testament as the unjust or unrighteous left behind, carnal and mock the Lord's return, were persecuted by anti-Christ"

Correct.
All those carnal saved believers left behind as Jesus declares are righteous, and "just".
They are Saved but not worthy to be in the bride group that is gathererd in the pretrib rapture..

What you omit, (your doctrine being built on omissions and celebrates omissions), is that God is a God of rewards.
You are turning rewards dynamic into "salvation".

A Good rewards example is the parable of the talents.
Another is the bema seat of Christ
( rewards for believers )

Now that you are enlightened as to the difference between the 2 you can now understand we have "worthy" believers and unworthy believers.
Those taken in lot, Noah, and the one Jesus says are taken before the flood, as well as the 5 wise virgins are worthy and saved.
Those left behind are saved and unworthy.

In the 7 letters to the 7 churches in revelation, those letters are loaded with rewards for the works that the believers do.

See the difference.?

 

[rebuilder 454]

There's no pretrib rapture, but midtrib rapture which is the first resurrection.

Anti-Christ's appearance in the world marks the beginning of the Great Tribulation.

During his reign, the church were persecuted for the testimony of Christ and the word of GOD. Ones who did not worship the beast nor his image, nor received his mark in their forehead or hands. These are ones who are dead or alive and remain, were included in the first resurrection, together with those who are dead in Christ since the beginning.

Since from the beginning of Christ till His death and resurrection, He's alone the firstfruit of resurrection. And none of the Apostles to the church after Him have been resurrected, until on the first resurrection.

So, how can you testify about pretrib rapture, when there's no such thing?



The above is just your spin of things that are not tangible to the scripture.

There's no such testament as the unjust or unrighteous left behind, carnal and mock the Lord's return, were persecuted by anti-Christ.


Not all them are killed

"""Not all them are killed"""

According to the bible "all take the mark"
Have you looked at that?
What does "all" mean?

Now you may possibly visualize 10 or so believers hiding in caves for 7 years eating bats and roaches, but even that ain't likely.

Postribbers use a ton of imagination..

Truly, us pretribbers own endtimes

 

[rebuilder 454]

The rapture is pre-wrath not pre-trib. God's faithful are NOT appointed unto wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9) whether one believes it's the devil's wrath or the wrath of the Lord. NOT appointed unto wrath actually means: NOT appointed unto wrath

If you have made up your mind that you are going thru the great tribulation then have a good time and don't forget to send a post card!

Maybe the anti-christ will be selling selfies with people right as the guillotine is taking off their head

Prewrath does not fit.( prewrath would be Halfway into the 7 year tribulation / (70th week of Daniel).
2 things happen mid trib ( halfway into the 70th week/ 7 yr trib)
1) the gathering of the jews in rev 14.
2) the AC desecrating the temple and HOH.

All Rapture verses have the opposite setting that your position indicates.
*Buying and selling
*normal life
*everyday life
*marrying and giving in marriage.
* planning for the future.
* acts 1 " like manner".
* virgin parable of mat 25


Prewrath/ postrib is basically impossible.
None of that setting fits that position.

 

[Scott Downey]

"""Not all them are killed"""

According to the bible "all take the mark"
Have you looked at that?
What does "all" mean?

Now you may possibly visualize 10 or so believers hiding in caves for 7 years eating bats and roaches, but even that ain't likely.

Postribbers use a ton of imagination..

Truly, us pretribbers own endtimes

All the beast worshippers take the mark.
As obviously if the beast has you under control, and you don't get his mark, you are killed.
You missed a lot of facts here in Revelation 14.

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the [g]patience of the saints; here[h] are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying [i]to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

Reaping the Earth’s Harvest​

14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come [j]for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

 

[Fred J]

These thrones are in Heaven and they rule there with Christ, where He is.

Obviously!

But the point the scripture is making, the church did go through persecution under the anti-Christ in the Great Tribulation.

This debunks the false doctrine of pretribulation rapture by heretics.

The first resurrection happened during the mid-Great Tribulation, and before GOD poured out from Heaven HIS wrath on earth to punish the ungodly and followers of darkness, the world.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[Fred J]

Correct.
All those carnal saved believers left behind as Jesus declares are righteous, and "just".
They are Saved but not worthy to be in the bride group that is gathererd in the pretrib rapture..

Again and again, there's no pretrib rapture, where is the scripture quote to support your claim?

The church did go through the Great Tribulation, being persecuted for their testimony of Jesus and the word of GOD.

They did not worship the beast nor his image, neither received his mark on their foreheads nor their hands.

 

[Fred J]

"""Not all them are killed"""

The true church at all time are persecuted worldwide for their testimony of Jesus and the word of GOD, besides the 'lukewarm' church.

They are equally persecuted, there are those killed and those spared to live another day to testify. That's why when Christ return for the first resurrection to bring home His bride. Then, the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

Paul was addressing this to the church, if it were to happen as he was speaking then, since they were alive and remain at that time. Also, Christ's second coming was already prophesied as, 'Jesus is coming soon', by all the Apostles to the church then itself.

Even to the church that will suffer persecution under the anti-Christ and the world, there'll be those killed for their faith. And also those spared, alive and remain to face another day to testify again, until Christ return for the first resurrection.

According to the bible "all take the mark"

The ones who receive the mark are unbelievers, and fake believers, and lukewarm believers in fear.

Not the true church in Christ who will lay down their life, since GOD strictly forbid them, specifically not to receive the mark.

James 1:
12. Blessed is a man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love Him.

Matthew 3:
9. And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that GOD is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

This is indeed a correction given unto the Jews, but to us Gentile Christians this should be a lesson. When likewise in Christ, casually we claim, We have GOD to our FATHER.

Shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ

 

[rebuilder 454]

The true church at all time are persecuted worldwide for their testimony of Jesus and the word of GOD, besides the 'lukewarm' church.

They are equally persecuted, there are those killed and those spared to live another day to testify. That's why when Christ return for the first resurrection to bring home His bride. Then, the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

Paul was addressing this to the church, if it were to happen as he was speaking then, since they were alive and remain at that time. Also, Christ's second coming was already prophesied as, 'Jesus is coming soon', by all the Apostles to the church then itself.

Even to the church that will suffer persecution under the anti-Christ and the world, there'll be those killed for their faith. And also those spared, alive and remain to face another day to testify again, until Christ return for the first resurrection.

The ones who receive the mark are unbelievers, and fake believers, and lukewarm believers in fear.

Not the true church in Christ who will lay down their life, since GOD strictly forbid them, specifically not to receive the mark.

James 1:
12. Blessed is a man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love Him.

Matthew 3:
9. And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that GOD is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

This is indeed a correction given unto the Jews, but to us Gentile Christians this should be a lesson. When likewise in Christ, casually we claim, We have GOD to our FATHER.

Shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ

You don't get it.
If all take the mark then there are ONLY THOSE REFUSING that are left with no mark.
Those refusing are martyred.

Do you understand there is no hope for a postrib rapture?
All left behinds are beheaded..
Only pre-trib fits
Nothing else does.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Again and again, there's no pretrib rapture, where is the scripture quote to support your claim?

The church did go through the Great Tribulation, being persecuted for their testimony of Jesus and the word of GOD.

They did not worship the beast nor his image, neither received his mark on their foreheads nor their hands.

If you are referring to Rev 20, it supports PRETRIB RAPTURE AND THOSE REFUSING THE MARK BEHEADED DURING THE TRIB.

You don't understand dead left behinds DO NOT "go through" the 7 yr gt?

Quote
"Again and again, there's no pretrib rapture, where is the scripture quote to support your claim?"

Again and again " one taken/one left "
Jesus said BEFORE THE FLOOD.

JESUS SAID BEFORE SODOM BURNED

You don't get it??????
You don't know what "before" means?

You don't understand " like manner" of Acts changed 1?

You don't understand the virgin parable ?

You don't understand JESUS WORDS " I will keep you out of the trib"?

....I know for a fact you never pray The COMMAND OF JESUS : "pray that you may be found worthy to escape the things about to come upon the world..."

JESUS SAID IT .
You cast all that down.
You say "Jesus never said any of that"

I don't know what to tell you to get you out of that rebellion against the words of Jesus..

 

[rebuilder 454]

All the beast worshippers take the mark.
As obviously if the beast has you under control, and you don't get his mark, you are killed.
You missed a lot of facts here in Revelation 14.

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the [g]patience of the saints; here[h] are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying [i]to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

Reaping the Earth’s Harvest​

14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come [j]for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

It tells you in your references you posted that they die in the trib.

Hello...no saints "go through " Daniel's 70th week.
Anyone left behind dies refusing the mark as you have pointed out.

And ...BTW... Rev 14: 14 is the Jewish harvest.

The last is first and the first is last.
The Jews come in last.
Rev 14.
Jewish harvest mid trib, complete with firstfruits Jews and Jewish main harvest.

 

[Scott Downey]

It tells you in your references you posted that they die in the trib.

Hello...no saints "go through " Daniel's 70th week.
Anyone left behind dies refusing the mark as you have pointed out.

And ...BTW... Rev 14: 14 is the Jewish harvest.

The last is first and the first is last.
The Jews come in last.
Rev 14.
Jewish harvest mid trib, complete with firstfruits Jews and Jewish main harvest.

They are saints. The verse says they are the saints, so how can they not go through it.
Why would you deny the saints in that verse?

Rev 14:12 Here is the [g]patience of the saints; here[h] are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Maybe you exclude yourself from the definition of being a saint then?

 

[Scott Downey]

Seems to me you have the rapture right here of the saints, and also the gathering of the tares, in Revelation 14 spoken about.
Surely sounds like the harvest at the end of the world to me.

The Son reaps His people.

Reaping the Earth’s Harvest​

14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come [j]for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

The angels reaping tares

Reaping the Grapes of Wrath​

17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred [k]furlongs.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just do not read this book like linear time, as it is not presented in linear time.

 

[Scott Downey]

NOT everyone is killed by the beast world system. There are surviving believers.
And also consider some will believe during the tribulation when they witness these things.

Are people actually reading scripture or are they just parroting scripture? As in glossing over what they think it says.

1 Thess 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

[Scott Downey]

Jesus tells Hs people they will witness ALL these things coming upon the earth at the end

Matthew 24

The Parable of the Fig Tree​

32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that [e]it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Plus, when Christ returns, heaven and earth will pass away. That is something many deny, the new earth and new heavens at the return of Christ on the Day of the Lord.

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Peter 3:10-13 - New King James Version

The Day of the Lord - But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be...

www.biblegateway.com

~~~~~~~~~~~
Why is someone not reading and understanding these things. Are they actually reading the scripture for themselves? Or are they reading commentary from their particular doctrinal views.

 

[doctrox]

You don't understand dead left behinds DO NOT "go through" the 7 yr gt?

and

Again and again " one taken/one left "
Jesus said BEFORE THE FLOOD.

The ones taken were taken to destruction - not evacuation.

You don't understand JESUS WORDS " I will keep you out of the trib"?

The Holy Bible does not say that.

....I know for a fact you never pray The COMMAND OF JESUS : "pray that you may be found worthy to escape the things about to come upon the world..."

"worthy to escape" is NOT synonymous with "evacuation."

 

[rebuilder 454]

and

The ones taken were taken to destruction - not evacuation.


The Holy Bible does not say that.

QUOTE
"The Holy Bible does not say that"
Jesus said it.
Please do not misrepresent His word.

QUOTE
"worthy to escape" is NOT synonymous with "evacuation."
Tell it to Lot and the baby Jesus.
Both evacuated , and those dynamics are not in your talking points
And never will be..

QUOTE
"The ones taken were taken to destruction - not evacuation"
Not in the bible.
All postribbers try and reframe the impossible.
JESUS said "one taken, one left behind "
Of The group that half are taken, it can not be, a group of Earth's population. ( not even remotely possible)
But you guys need it to be.
You NEED half of earth's population wicked, and half righteous. And some wicked rapture of half earth's population.
That is such an obvious red flag.
But that IMPOSSIBILITY Is your talking point.

It gets worse for that "wicked taken" assumption.
Because Jesus said "BEFORE THE FLOOD 2 men shall be in a bed, one taken, the other left".
Again half the world is not righteous.
But your doctrine is trying to say " AFTER THE TRIB ,2 men in a bed. The wicked one is taken. "
IOW....The on fire for Jesus, spirit filled believer, is IN BED, SLEEPING WITH A DEMON FILLED, ANTICHIST MARKED, SATAN WORSHIPPING HEATHEN.
That us what you are saying.
But it gets even worse, because Jesus said BEFORE THE FLOOD we see normal life, Everyday life, Commerce, and planning for the future, marriage , and betrothal. (ahem....the PRETRIB setting no postrib has ever comprehended) THEN IN THAT SETTING...one taken, one left.!!!!
So your doctrine has a pretrib rapture of the wicked (one half of the world), in the wrong setting, with Jesus telling the wicked to watch and be ready, and you guys proclaim it as if it is true.!!!!!
Totally bizarre.


Postribbers actually make an impossibility their talking point.

Jesus said, just a few verses later, half are taken TO HEAVEN.
Another SUBGROUP where Half of A SUBGROUP are taken to heaven.

That is 2 mighty witnesses against your doctrine talking points.
( more like 20 witnesses)