The deepest human desire. - The longing to be safe at home.

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St. SteVen

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The story of the prodigal, the parable of the lost son,
is a beautiful picture of this longing to be safe at home.
What I would call the deepest human desire.

Can you imagine a stronger human desire?

This is why I don't buy the idea that any human would not want to be home in heaven.
That anyone would be unhappy to arrive in the place prepared for them. Home.

Luke 15:17-20 NIV
“When he came to his senses, he said,
‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare,
and here I am starving to death!
18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him:
Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’
20 So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a long way off,
his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him;
he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

[
 
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St. SteVen

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St. SteVen

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The story of the prodigal, the parable of the lost son,
is a beautiful picture of this longing to be safe at home.
What I would call the deepest human desire.

Can you imagine a stronger human desire?

This is why I don't buy the idea that any human would not want to be home in heaven.
That anyone would be unhappy to arrive in the place prepared for them. Home.

Anyone who claims to hate God hasn't met Him yet.

[
 

St. SteVen

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The story of the prodigal, the parable of the lost son,
is a beautiful picture of this longing to be safe at home.
What I would call the deepest human desire.

Can you imagine a stronger human desire?

This is why I don't buy the idea that any human would not want to be home in heaven.
That anyone would be unhappy to arrive in the place prepared for them. Home.

Luke 15:17-20 NIV
“When he came to his senses, he said,
‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare,
and here I am starving to death!
18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him:
Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’
20 So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a long way off,
his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him;
he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

[
 

Brakelite

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I think we, like the prodigal, would go anywhere where our Father is. It just happened to be home. But if the Father wasnt at home and we wanted to be at peace with him, we'd go anywhere for that wouldn't we?
 
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Aunty Jane

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The story of the prodigal, the parable of the lost son,
is a beautiful picture of this longing to be safe at home.
What I would call the deepest human desire.
I guess that depends upon what we call “home”. Those who imagine that all Christians are called “home” to heaven, are mistaken because heaven was never their “home” in the first place.

God created humans to live forever on earth.....”everlasting life” was put before them in mortal flesh, which means that the “tree of life” there in the garden, with no prohibition attached, would have guaranteed unending life on earth, with no sickness aging or death to interfere with God’s original purpose for us. But, as soon as sin was committed access to “the tree of life” was denied! (Gen 3:22-24)

It hinges too on the reason why some are “called” to heaven and others are not.
Paul mentions those with a “heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1) so why would we imagine that they needed to go “home” to somewhere they had never been?

Angels call heaven “home”, having been created to live there.....but humankind were given a magnificent home here on earth with prospects that were very exciting if only they had not followed the prompting of a liar who robbed them of what they were promised....but only temporarily.
Can you imagine a stronger human desire?
Yes! ....one that has been implanted to overshadow the original natural desire for life in our earthly “home”.

Since humans are programmed to live in an earthly paradise, anything less would feel wrong...like they didn’t belong in that place.
Doesn’t that explain why so many think that heaven must be where they belong because the ruined earth doesn’t feel like the home they were born to live in.

So reading in the Bible that there are an elected or chosen “few” who are invited to go to a different “home” to be where their Lord was, and where he had gone “to prepare a place” for them....what does that mean?
It opens up some interesting possibilities that are actually backed up by Scripture. Why go to a completely different realm to “prepare a place” for those who go there, if that is already “home”? That is illogical.
This is why I don't buy the idea that any human would not want to be home in heaven.
That anyone would be unhappy to arrive in the place prepared for them. Home.
These are not infants with no knowledge of where home is after their birth, until they have lived there.....the place where they grow up, or the house they grew up in, usually illicits a concept of “home”...a place with family, and memories, if one is blessed to have those.

We are talking about adults who are given a “call” to go where they have never been before......to leave everything familiar and enter into a realm that is completely foreign. This “calling” is stronger than any earthly tie, and the desire is somewhat overpowering, as the apostle Paul said. “To be absent from the body is to be with the Lord”....it means giving up life in the flesh, to take on spirit life in heaven....so what do we envision “heaven” to be? “Paradise”? What does this word mean?

According to Strongs, it is ...”paradeisos” which means....
  1. “among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters
  2. a garden, pleasure ground
    1. grove, park”
So, in the three places where it is mentioned in the Bible, two of them refer to paradise on earth.
“The third heaven” that Paul spoke about in 2 Cor 12:1-4, is not as easy to understand as he was having a rapturous supernatural vision at the time. He basically didn’t know where he was....or what he was privy to.

For those with the “heavenly calling”, a place has been prepared for them in a completely foreign environment that will eventually feel like “home” because they will spend eternity there.

For those who do not have the heavenly calling, everlasting life in paradise on earth will be their future home because God did not go to all this trouble to have the devil defeat his original purpose.....we lost our paradise home, but Jesus came to undo all the damage that the rebellion has caused us....and to put God’s first purpose back on track. (Isa 55:11)

Anyone who claims to hate God hasn't met Him yet.
I agree....but I also think that anyone who has been to the untouched and beautiful places on this amazing planet already know where “paradise” was supposed to be....but we was robbed! Jesus is the one who will bring it all back and return the human race back to sinless perfection to enjoy God’s handiwork forever...

This is what “HOME” looks like....

Top 5 most beautiful beaches in the world | Magazine PONANT

55 of the World's Most Beautiful Destinations

One of the most beautiful places on Earth- CAIRNS, NORTH ...

Ten most beautiful places on earth | The Australian

Most Beautiful Places in the World, most beautiful places on earth ...
 

Jack

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The story of the prodigal, the parable of the lost son,
is a beautiful picture of this longing to be safe at home.
What I would call the deepest human desire.

Can you imagine a stronger human desire?

This is why I don't buy the idea that any human would not want to be home in heaven.
That anyone would be unhappy to arrive in the place prepared for them. Home.

Luke 15:17-20 NIV
“When he came to his senses, he said,
‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare,
and here I am starving to death!
18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him:
Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’
20 So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a long way off,
his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him;
he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.
Why did you quote Luke? The Written Word of God?
 

St. SteVen

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as the apostle Paul said. “To be absent from the body is to be with the Lord”....
I should clarify that I have been using the word "heaven" in the OP to mean just that.
Language that most Christians and even non-Christians relate to.
Believers leaving the physical realm to be with God in the spiritual realm.
I don't believe in unconscious nonexistence in the afterlife.

[
 

Jack

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I should clarify that I have been using the word "heaven" in the OP to mean just that.
Language that most Christians and even non-Christians relate to.
Believers leaving the physical realm to be with God in the spiritual realm.
I don't believe in unconscious nonexistence in the afterlife.
Do you believe Jesus?????

Rev 20 They will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER!
 

Aunty Jane

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I should clarify that I have been using the word "heaven" in the OP to mean just that.
Language that most Christians and even non-Christians relate to.
Believers leaving the physical realm to be with God in the spiritual realm.
I don't believe in unconscious nonexistence in the afterlife.
So to most people, death is not death at all.....it’s just the gateway to another kind of life? Where does the Bible say that? Can we explore what the Bible teaches...?

What was Adam told would happen to him at death?
Gen 3:19...
“In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

Adam would go back to where he came from....back to a state of non-existence....so, why do humans fight that notion? Because they still react like Eve, believing the lie that “you surely will not die”.....as beings programmed to live forever, it is inconceivable to imagine ourselves simply going back to the dust, which is what takes place for everyone. Death is as foreign to us now, as it ever was. It’s the reason why we fight to live. If we go to somewhere better, why do we grieve?

As Solomon wrote....
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. . . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, [sheol] where you are going.”

This is what Jews were taught. So I can see how plainly satan has used our natural desire to go on living, to perpetuate his first lie....it is still promoted to this day....by Christians or non-Christians alike....each with their own embellishments....but it is not a Bible teaching.

In all false religions around the world, this one belief stands as universal....”you surely will not die”....that belief was not held by God’s people in the same way as the pagans believed it....they were taught that death is just a temporary state of ‘suspended animation’....an unconscious “sleep” from which they would awaken in “the resurrection”. There was no immortal soul that exited the body at death, to go somewhere else, but they were taught to look forward to a restoration of body and soul (the whole person) under the rule of Messiah’s Kingdom.

One Bible example explains it clearly....the resurrection of Jesus’ friend Lazarus.

John 11:11-14....
“After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12  The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13  Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14  Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died”.

Where was Lazarus, who had been dead for four days? Jesus said he was “asleep” and that he was going to wake him up.
In Jesus’ day, there had been no miracles since the days of the prophets hundreds of years before, so a resurrection or any other miracle, was not a common event and it elicited awe and wonder. Jesus was the first to perform such miracles in his day.

Lazarus’ sister stated her belief in “the resurrection” as the account relates...
20  When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went to meet him; but Mary kept sitting at home. 21  Martha then said to Jesus: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22  Yet even now I know that whatever you ask God for, God will give you.” 23  Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24  Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25  Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; 26  and everyone who is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?”

Martha had no notion of her brother’s spirit existing in the invisible realm, because she knew about the resurrection to come “on the last day”....so when was this “last day”? Obviously she was pointing forward to the future when “all those in their tombs would hear his [Jesus] voice and come out”. (John 5:28-29) This was under the kingdom’s rule when Jesus would call all the dead from their graves......how could he do that unless they were all still in those graves? They expected to be called back to this life on earth.

Did Lazarus mention being anywhere else when he waddled out, still in his grave wrappings?
And if he was in a better place, why would Jesus bring him back to this life, only to die again in the future?

Jewish expectation of that time, is hardly ever taken into account when we examine the subject of death, and eventually they too succumbed to the notion of an immortal soul, but it was never part of their Scripture.

When Jesus died, he remained in his tomb for three days...he did not go anywhere, but was as he stated....”in the heart of the earth, as Jonah was in the belly of the fish”.....it was a confinement. So death is a confinement for us too, until it is time for God to bring back all the victims of Adam’s sin.

Even Christ’s elect were to sleep in death until his return.
1 Thess 4:13-17 shows us that death is not permanent except for those whom God consigns to “Gehenna” (the goats).....a place of no return....a death from which there is no resurrection.

“Gehenna” and “hades” are often translated as “hell” but they are two entirely different destinations.
Those in “hades” are released from death...those in “Gehenna” are not. (Rev 20:13-14; Matt 25:31-33, 41, 46)

So, only two groups of living things will end up in that place of no return....the “goats” (humans on earth who follow the devil’s lead) and those whom satan managed to mislead in God’s family of ‘sons’ in heaven.
They will forfeit their lives forever. No need to torture anyone.

Life or death is all God’s children were ever taught about....and either obedience, or disobedience, will dictate where each will spend eternity.
 

Behold

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So to most people, death is not death at all.....it’s just the gateway to another kind of life? Where does the Bible say that? Can we explore what the Bible teaches...?

Here is what the Bible Teaches.

John 3:36............The Wrath of God, that is (eternal damnation) is on every unbeliever until they trust in Christ and are forgiven their sin, and are born again "in Christ"

Damnation begins in unbelif and then continues eternally after death initially in Hell, for the unbeliever.

The born again are "saved" from God's wrath, having become a "Son-Daughter" of God.

A person must be born again, on Earth to go to Heaven, as you can't be born again in Hell.
 

Aunty Jane

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Here is what the Bible Teaches.

John 3:36............The Wrath of God, that is (eternal damnation) is on every unbeliever until they trust in Christ and are forgiven their sin, and are born again "in Christ"

Damnation begins in unbelif and then continues eternally after death initially in Hell, for the unbeliever.

The born again are "saved" from God's wrath, having become a "Son-Daughter" of God.

A person must be born again, on Earth to go to Heaven, as you can't be born again in Hell.
Sorry but the whole “hell and damnation” idea is not biblical, nor does it portray the true character and justice of the true God....it smacks of the characteristics of “the god of this world”. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

That you even relish such a notion like others here, betrays your lack of knowledge of the true God and his son....and your own heart’s wicked desire. The Love God has, does not desire even the death of the wicked, let alone their eternal torment.

Ezekiel 33:10-11...ESV...
“And you, son of man, say to the house of Israel, Thus have you said: ‘Surely our transgressions and our sins are upon us, and we rot away because of them. How then can we live?’ Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?”

God does not change....he still takes no pleasure even in the death of the wicked....he wants repentance not perpetual punishment.

Under the death penalty in Israel, not one crime was deserving of torture. Death was administered swiftly...even in the flood and in Sodom and Gomorrah where death came on a mass scale...it was swift and without anything but the realisation that their death was deserved as a punishment for their chosen lifestyle.

You can keep your fiendish and sadistic god....I want nothing to do with him.
 
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St. SteVen

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So to most people, death is not death at all.....it’s just the gateway to another kind of life? Where does the Bible say that? Can we explore what the Bible teaches...?
I'm sure you are familiar with the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus.
Jesus describes a conversation between Abraham and the Rich Man.
Why would Jesus be so misleading if there was no afterlife?

A search for the term "realm of the dead" in the NIV translation yields 29 results in the Bible.
Two of them are in the second chapter of Acts. One result is in Ecclesiastes 9:10. See below.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 NIV
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might,
for in the realm of the dead, where you are going,
there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

[
 

St. SteVen

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So to most people, death is not death at all.....it’s just the gateway to another kind of life?
Obviously, there is more than one view on this.
Jesus said that everyone is alive. (whether physically dead or not)

Luke 20:37-39 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”

[
 

Aunty Jane

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Obviously, there is more than one view on this.
Jesus said that everyone is alive. (whether physically dead or not)
I have revisited this argument many times....
The Scripture In 1 Thess 4:13-17 is enlightening if we read it without “the church” blinders on.

Can we unpack this...?

“But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.”

Those who are “asleep” are the dead, including Christ’s elect....his “chosen ones”, as Paul goes on to point out. These ones will experience a death and resurrection like Christ’s....the death of the body and the resurrection of that person in a new spirit body....being “born again” as it were as a spirit “son of God”.

“For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.”

So those of his elect who are alive on earth when Jesus returns, were not to precede those who had fallen asleep in the centuries since Jesus offered his life in sacrifice for them. All the dead were to “sleep” until that time. And the time has now arrived.....we are living in “the time of the end” and Jesus is already ruling in his Kingdom, but the world has not been subjected to him as yet, as it was prophesied that he would “rule in the midst of his enemies”. (Psalm 110:1-2)

Who is he ruling right now? His true disciples on earth, who have distinguished themselves as being “no part of this world”. If you have checked out other threads here with politically motivated content, you can see clearly who is supporting the kingdoms of man and arguing about who are “good guys” and who are the “bad guys”.....but the truth is, in a world ruled by the devil...(1 John 5:19) there are no good guys...people are only presented with what appears to be “the lesser of two evils”.

Humans cannot undo the evil that they have created and because they look to man to solve their problems, the argument will continue until the end when they will be presented with a mirror to see themselves as God sees them....by their political biases, they show themselves to be supporters of satan’s kingdoms....with no real solutions, and with totalitarian control in mind for people gullible enough to accept that as freedom......it is not God’s solution.

“For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.”

Here is the “first resurrection” (Rev 20:6) which is first in time and in importance because the Kingdom rulership that Jesus preached was going to be established before the rulership of man was dissolved....a seemless transition would then see earth’s inhabitants...the survivors of the greatest tribulation mankind have ever experienced, (Matt 24:21) step out onto a cleaned earth, in much the same way as Noah stepped out of the ark....but this time, with wickedness gone forever.

“Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.” (ESV)

So those still alive in the flesh on earth who are of the elect, will be immediately transformed so as to meet their Lord “in the air”, or in the spirit realm.....they will all be present when Jesus comes with his angelic forces to bring about the end of this present world system. And when it comes comes crashing down, a “great multitude” will survive as it says in Rev 7:9-10; 13-14. Those who “did not receive the make of the beast”.

Luke 20:37-39 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”
Again, it all depends on the way you read that verse.....through what lens?

“The dead rise”...but when? Not immediately according to the apostle Paul. They sleep until the return of Christ....and the Bible indicates that he is already here......he returned in “the same manner” as he left...the world at large was unaware of it. Only his closest companions were aware of it because they witnessed it.

In Matt 24, Jesus gave a series of unprecedented world events as a “sign” that would indicate that he had returned....with no fanfare or trumpets. The “sign” he gave fits these last days to a tee. (Matt 24:3-14)

They began with an unprecedented war....that was called “the Great War” until another monumental world war followed some decades later, then these were described as WW 1 and WW 2.

The First World War of 1914 was the beginning of “the last days” and it was closely followed by the Spanish Flu epidemic that took millions more lives. Food shortages and great earthquakes have also followed....along with the love the greater number growing cold....with no real care for those who are in need......Look at how many are homeless on the streets nowadays.....the working poor who can’t afford somewhere to live and who subsist on junk food because it’s all they can manage on meagre wages.

You can read into that statement that the dead are still alive.....or you can read into that statement that all who died faithful in OT times, (who were never promised heaven), are as good as alive because to bring them back in the resurrection is as simple as awakening someone from sleep.

What ever Scripture you quote has to be backed up by other Scripture...never taken at face value...or out of context. This is why we must study the Bible and not church theology. They are as different as chalk and cheese.
 

St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:
Obviously, there is more than one view on this.
I have revisited this argument many times....
Yes, of course.
No reason not to visit it again.
Did you lay the question to rest for all time?
Is your opinion authoritative?
(I'm not being combative)

In support of my view, the sleep of death is from an earthly perspective.
The dead appear to be asleep.

And in Ecclesiastes, dead is again an earthly view.
A reference to physical death "under the sun".

[
 

Behold

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Sorry but the whole “hell and damnation” idea is not biblical

Hell is found in the NT verses., so to say its not 'biblical" is ignorant.

= "Hell was created for the devil and his angels".

And following......... anyone who is not born again on earth, has not become a Son-Daughter of God........so they remain this one.

= "You are of YOUR FATHER the Devil"......

So, they will go to THEIR Father's HELL.......His Place......because HELL is created for THEIR Father..........and for them.


, nor does it portray the true character and justice of the true God....it smacks of the characteristics of “the god of this world”. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

The Character of God is not limited to Love.

The Bible defines God's Character as.. many things.

What you dont want is for God to be a God of RIGHTEOUSNESS and Justice and Judgement.
You want a "huggy bear".. in Heaven.
See, you want to get rid of Hell, which allows you to get rid of any trait of God that isn't related to God being the RIGHTEOUS eternal Judge.

Hell is desiged for the JUDGED......the Damned.... JOhn 3:36........the Unforgiven., whereas Heaven is designed for the righteous, the sinless, the holy.

That you even relish such a notion like others here, betrays your lack of knowledge of the true God and his son...

God's Son is in me and im "in Christ".
I have Eternal Life, because Jesus who is eternal life is in me.
John teaches this as :: ""you can know you have eternal life, because this life is IN. ..his Son"""
And all the born again are "IN" Christ.

God does not change....he still takes no pleasure even in the death of the wicked....he wants repentance not perpetual punishment.

Are all JW's as confused about God's Justice and Judgment as you are currently?????

Listen, God has provided His sinless SON to offer eternal forgiveness for sinners..........so, that is God's great love.
But you have to understand that God is RIGHTEOUS........and only the RIGHTEOUS can exist = where God exists.
So, this is why Jesus told us that "you must be born again"........so that this spiritual birth places you, "in Christ'........forgiven all sin, and "made righteous".

Its through Jesus's sacrifice that "many will be made righteous".......and the many are the "born again"...the BELIEVERS who have placed their faith in Christ and God has forgiven them all their sin, and given them "THE Gift of Righteousness"



You can keep your fiendish and sadistic god....I want nothing to do with him.

Acutally its the Calvinists who have a "fiendish" God.......as their God chooses some for Hell, and some for Heaven.
Calvin's God causes all the evil in the world.....
Calvinists claim God is doing the Devil's work.
So their is yet another cult group and their "fiendish" "sadistic" God, they've created.
 

Jack

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May 3, 2022
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"The deepest human desire. - The longing to be safe at home."

Too bad you reject God of the Bible. He is the ONLY true refuge!
 
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