Is it possible to lose salvation?

[amigo de christo]

1 John 1:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

again this is a very lovely truth .
But again even the churches warned their own THEY MUST continue IN HIM .
SO how come when i do so today
its OH you dont trust in THE WORKS OF CHRIST .
OH YES I DO . AND I do something , by HIS GRACE , that many no longer do .
I ACTUALLY BELEIVE HIS WORDS . something its seems many rather twist it
to fit an acryonm . I KNOW with ZERO DOUBT anyone that comes out , WAS NEVER TRULY OF US .
AND I know with ZERO DOUBT we MUST CONTINUE IN HIM TO THE END .
Cause HE said it as did the apostels . YOU do realize
there is a reason WHY JESUS said what HE DID
WHY GOD spoke as HE DID
WHY HE WARNED
WHY even the aposetls warned . Cause GOD KNOWS HOW , HOW , HOW to KEEP the church safe
and from falling . BUT this is why i have such a problem
with OSAS , cause any time i bring the reminders to continue in HIM
OR any time i bring reminders WHO we serve is whose we are
ITS ALL legalism , you dont trust , YOU dont etc .
RATHER ODD , ITS HIS WORDS I BRING to remind us with .
Sounds to me like rather its THE MANY who dont TRUST IN JESUS , IN HIS FINSIHED WORKS , in HIS WORDS .
when said words contradict their beleif . that is real bad too .

 

[Ezra]

first let me say i saw some good truths .

let me say we just cant connect ... no matter what truth i post you know more . in other post you completely twisted my post on the lady leaving the Church.. i find no encouragement with you

 

[amigo de christo]

let me say we just cant connect ... no matter what truth i post you know more . in other post you completely twisted my post on the lady leaving the Church.. i find no encouragement with you

That example you brought was something you probably heard one teach .
Very crafity these men are my friend .
The goal of that writing is to convince us
that those who are aware of sins in others
ARE NOT FOCUSING ON JESUS
and its meant to Just get all to ignore sin and error in the church
under the guise one is not LOOKING unto CHRIST .
Try asking simple short questoins to me . And you TEST my answers .
This is the easiest and simpliest way to clear up any confusion on anyones part .
SO ask me a questoin or two that pops into your mind .
And you watch and test how i answer it . AND compare it always to what was written
This is real easy to clear up my friend . Real easy .
SO rather than accusing me of not being this or that .
ASK me questions about whatever confusion you might have in what i said .
This can real quickly be cleared up .

 

[amigo de christo]

let me say we just cant connect ... no matter what truth i post you know more . in other post you completely twisted my post on the lady leaving the Church.. i find no encouragement with you

Now what if i used that same arugment against you . OH no matter what i say YOU KNOW more .
Rather what we need to do
IS PROVE whether what one is speaking is TRUTH nor not .
I mean i , by grace KNOW not to approach like that . RATHER all i did was bring you the truth .
Can you show me where i taught error
in what I SAID TO YOU . AND i even agreed you had brought some good truths .
I JUST went on to explain something .
SO let me ask you a question .
WHERE IS MY SIN , MY ERROR
in what i wrote to you . show me that . lets start with that .
YOU could maybe say , HEY DUDE we DONT HAVE TO CONTINUE IN HIM TO THE END .
but i dont think you are that crazy . My point is , SHOW ME my error
rather than just making cliams of what i do and how i so called KNOW more than you .
SHOW ME by the scripture my error . AND by scrips i will happily show you yours IF or when i see them .

 

[Ezra]

That example you brought was something you probably heard one teach .
Very crafity these men are my friend .
The goal of that writing is to convince us
that those who are aware of sins in others
ARE NOT FOCUSING ON JESUS
and its meant to Just get all to ignore sin and error in the church
under the guise one is not LOOKING unto CHRIST .
Try asking simple short questoins to me . And you TEST my answers .
This is the easiest and simpliest way to clear up any confusion on anyones part .
SO ask me a questoin or two that pops into your mind .
And you watch and test how i answer it . AND compare it always to what was written
This is real easy to clear up my friend . Real easy .
SO rather than accusing me of not being this or that .
ASK me questions about whatever confusion you might have in what i said .
This can real quickly be cleared up .

were done you sit behind a computer and act like you know me

 

[Kokyu]

1 Timothy 4:1
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,


Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away,,,,


Hebrews 3:12
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.


1 Timothy 4:16
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.


1 Corinthians 9:27
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.


There are more but the above should suffice.

Suffice for what?

What does it mean to "fall away from the faith"? The Galatian Christians were being seduced by Judaizers, lured back under the impossible law-keeping approach to God that Christ had abolished (He. 7-10:22) through his atoning work at Calvary. Paul is quite fierce in his criticism of the Judaizers (Ga. 1:7; 5:12) and in his plea to the Christians in Galatia not to come under bondage to the condemnation of the Old Covenant (Ga. 3:3; 4:9-11). But Paul never says to the believers in Galatia who were returning to the "weak and beggarly elements" of Old Covenant law-keeping that they were therefore unsaved. Instead, Paul refers to them repeatedly as "brethren" (Ga. 1:11; 3:15; 4:12, 28, etc.) and "sons of God" (Ga. 3:26; 4:6) confirming that they were in Christ (Ga. 3:27-29).

You assume that "fall away from the faith" means "unsaved" but Paul never actually says this in any of the verses you've posted above. Was Paul incapable of being explicit and writing "not saved" or "unsaved" or "you've lost your salvation"? Obviously not. And yet, he never writes anything of this sort in any of his letters. Look at the first verse you offered in context:

1 Timothy 4:1-5
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving;
5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

What does Paul mean by "fall away from the faith" in the context of this passage? Does he ever say they are unsaved? No. Does he say "And so, they have lost their salvation"? No. Does he say, "Thus God has rejected them from His family and kingdom"? No. But he does say that those who've "fallen away from the faith" have:

- given heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.
- speak lies in hypocrisy.
- possess a seared conscience.
- forbid marriage, and abstinence from certain foods.

I've always thought it strange, this passage. The people Paul describes who've "fallen away" aren't off into some perverse sexuality, or worship of pagan idols, or denying Jesus was God, but are just forbidding marriage and abstinence from certain foods. Sounds rather like the Judaizers in the province of Galatia. In any case, Paul says nothing in his description of those who've "fallen away" of lost salvation, or God ejecting them from His family and kingdom. Such a construction on Paul's words you're imposing, not actually extracting from what he wrote.

Hebrews 6:1-8
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this we will do if God permits.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.

Here, too, the question is: What does "fall away" mean? As well, what difference, if any, does the conditional term "if" make to what is being said in verse 6? And who, exactly, is in view in verses 4-6? Is it actually a born-again person?

The writer of Hebrews explains what he means by "fall away":

- cannot be renewed again to repentance.
- crucify the Son of God again and put him to an open shame.

Again, what isn't said is that the one who "falls away" is no longer saved, or unsaved, or has lost their salvation, or is thrust out of God's family and kingdom - all much simpler, more explicit ways to say such a thing if it is was what was intended.

 

[Kokyu]

Who is in view in verses 4-6? A person who is:

- enlightened.
- tasted the heavenly gift.
- partakers of the Holy Spirit.
- tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come.

What sort of enlightenment, tasting, and partaking would it be reasonable to think a person has who "falls away" (from what isn't stipulated explicitly)? Is it unreasonable to think such a person was never actually saved? If the "falling away" entailed departing entirely from the faith, John says the following:

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Here, then, is scriptural cause to think that those who were enlightened, had tasted and partaken were, despite these things, never truly born again. Can one be enlightened and not saved? Yes. I know atheists, agnostics and Muslims who have a far better handle on the Gospel and the basic doctrines of the Christian faith than the average Christian in North America. They can articulate very clearly the truths of the Gospel, from memory giving chapter and verse, even. I've had discussions with them a number of times over the years and watched a few of them in debates with Christian apologists. To the degree they understand the Gospel and Christian doctrine, they are enlightened to it, but the word does not profit them spiritually, not being mixed with faith (He. 4:2).

Could this not be the same sort of "enlightened" person Hebrews 6:4 describes? I don't see why not. In the NT, every group of Early Church believers that had to be instructed and corrected by Paul or John, Peter or James, demonstrate that its possible to be only partially enlightened to God's Truth. But if genuine believers needed further enlightenment, as the NT demonstrates they did, it's quite reasonable to think that there were non-believers in the Church who also had only a second-hand, fractured understanding of God's Truth, who were enlightened only to a degree, too. Must one think, then, that Hebrews 6:4 is speaking only of a saved person? Not at all. It seems much more plausible to me in light of their "falling away" to understand that the "enlightened" people described in the verse were not truly saved.

What about "partaking"? I've known men and women in the Church who had taught Sunday School classes, served as deacons, led Bible studies and so on who realized they were not actually saved. They had been partakers in the life and work of the Church for decades, in some cases, sharing in what the Holy Spirit was doing in and through their particular congregation of Christians, but were not themselves truly born-again people. It's possible, then, for a person to be a "sharer" in, or partaker in, the Holy Spirit in the second-hand manner of these false converts, praying to God, singing songs of worship to Him, teaching His Truth to others, but not actually truly indwelt by the Spirit.

This sort of "partaking" is suggested, it seems to me, very clearly in the description of having only "tasted" of the things of God (heavenly gift, word of God). If I taste a piece of apple pie, I haven't necessarily eaten the whole thing. In fact, if I say I only tasted something, commonly folk would think I'd had only a sampling of it. Certainly, this could be the case for those "partaking" of the Spirit who have only "tasted of the heavenly gift" (who is the Spirit of Christ). And inasmuch as these "partakers" and "tasters" "fall away," they appear to me to confirm that they had only a second-hand, partial knowledge and experience of the Holy Spirit, and God's Truth.

And then, there's that "if" at the beginning of verse 4. Everything that follows this word is conditioned upon it. In other words, it's impossible to renew to repentance those described in verse 4 IF they were to "fall away." But this means that verse 4 is describing a hypothetical situation, not an actual one. Verse 4 doesn't say that there were such people; it doesn't say that there had been such people; it doesn't say that there would be such people; no, verse 4 describes only a theoretical/hypothetical circumstance that is not concerned with a person losing their salvation but with why a person who had "fallen away" from their change of mind (repentance) concerning Christ and the Gospel couldn't be "renewed again to repentance" about these things.

The enlightened, partaking, and tasting person would have to have had some measure of repentance - a change of mind - about the Gospel and Jesus Christ. If having had this change of mind (to whatever degree), they "fall away" from it, doubting the Gospel and salvation through Jesus, having done so, they become "inoculated" to these things, unable to take them up again. This is all the writer of Hebrews is remarking on in Hebrews 6:4-6, offering a hypothetical, a sort of thought-experiment, not an actual circumstance.

And so it goes, each of your offered proof-texts failing to make the case for your saved-and-lost/works salvation doctrine. It's fascinating to me, though, how you just assume they say what you think they say. Amazing (and not a little disturbing).

 

[Kokyu]

again this is a very lovely truth .
But again even the churches warned their own THEY MUST continue IN HIM .

To what end, though? Some want to say "to the end they keep themselves saved." But I think Scripture teaches that believers are to do as God's word commands, not to retain salvation, to retain one's relationship to God as His adopted child, but to enjoy daily, life-changing fellowship with Him. There's a BIG difference between being related to God as His child and being in fellowship with Him, which the parable of the Prodigal Son well illustrates (Lu. 15:11-32). It's from fellowship with God (1 Co. 1:9; 2 Co. 13:14; 1 Jn. 1:3; Rev. 3:20, etc.) and all its tremendous spiritual benefits that one may "fall away," never from one's adoption that one can only receive, not achieve.

SO how come when i do so today
its OH you dont trust in THE WORKS OF CHRIST .

Well, because when you put yourself in the "mix" of your salvation as the one who works to keep it, you imply that Jesus's salvation of you was not perfect and complete. If it were, you'd not have to add any of your own effort to it in order to retain it. But Scripture says that Jesus's once-for-all atonement for us was perfect, fully satisfying God's holy justice. Read Hebrews 7-10:22. Because this is the case, there aren't any works we can do that can add to Jesus's perfect work on the cross (Eph. 2:8-9; Tit. 3:5; 2 Ti. 1:9). All we can do is receive from God His gift of salvation. And so, when you say that a Christian has to work to keep their salvation, it sounds to the OSAS folk like you're denying the fullness and perfection of Christ's atoning work on the cross.

OH YES I DO . AND I do something , by HIS GRACE , that many no longer do .
I ACTUALLY BELEIVE HIS WORDS . something its seems many rather twist it
to fit an acryonm .

I believe in OSAS, but I don't disbelieve God's word. Just the opposite, actually.

I KNOW with ZERO DOUBT anyone that comes out , WAS NEVER TRULY OF US .
AND I know with ZERO DOUBT we MUST CONTINUE IN HIM TO THE END .

Our confidence in a thing doesn't make it true. A person can, after all, be very confident about something about which they're in profound error. For example, I went once to an appointment only to discover it was for the following week on the same day. I'd shown up for the appointment, though, totally sure it was for the day I'd thought it was. It didn't matter, though, that I was so confident in my belief about the appointment; I was still wrong about it. And so, what certifies whether or not what we think about God's Truth is actually true, is the plain declaration of God's word, not our level of confidence in our belief about what it says.

BUT this is why i have such a problem
with OSAS , cause any time i bring the reminders to continue in HIM
OR any time i bring reminders WHO we serve is whose we are
ITS ALL legalism , you dont trust , YOU dont etc .

There is legalism out there, right? And it deserves to be criticized. But I think the modern Church in North America is waaaay too far in the "don't judge me" direction, refusing to have any serious discussion about sin and holiness. And so, the charge of "legalism" is thrown out much too easily, applied inappropriately far too often. The terrible consequence of this is not lost salvation, though, but lost fellowship with God. But because so few Christians actually enjoy daily fellowship with Him, they have no idea how great is the loss of that fellowship.

 

[Marvelloustime]

Now what if i used that same arugment against you . OH no matter what i say YOU KNOW more .
Rather what we need to do
IS PROVE whether what one is speaking is TRUTH nor not .
I mean i , by grace KNOW not to approach like that . RATHER all i did was bring you the truth .
Can you show me where i taught error
in what I SAID TO YOU . AND i even agreed you had brought some good truths .
I JUST went on to explain something .
SO let me ask you a question .
WHERE IS MY SIN , MY ERROR
in what i wrote to you . show me that . lets start with that .
YOU could maybe say , HEY DUDE we DONT HAVE TO CONTINUE IN HIM TO THE END .
but i dont think you are that crazy . My point is , SHOW ME my error
rather than just making cliams of what i do and how i so called KNOW more than you .
SHOW ME by the scripture my error . AND by scrips i will happily show you yours IF or when i see them .

@amigo de christo

 

[Ronald Nolette]

cause many follow a sin loving sin accepting jesus IS WHY . and as you know , and by grace i know
THAT AINT JESUS and it cannot save them . Reminders are always good .
SO LONG as the reminders BE TRUTH . Now double down and trench time . This be the last hour my friend .

Jesus is not sin loving- Just sin forgiving. that is not a license to sin a sPaul declared.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

salvation unconditional is what OSAS suggest,

yet the bible tells us if we do certain things we will not inherit the kingdom of God

if you think your saved and practice any of these things you are not going going to heaven unless you repent. unconditional salvation is lie of this world to get you comfortable, we are never to get comfortable with this world !!

1 Corinthians 6:9-10​

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

See the key word you use is "pratice". And in Scripture it means practice as a way of life! And no believers will not do that. They may fall for a season, but like the prodigal son, they will come back. And when first saved many live in sins simply because they have not learned yet.

Believers are righteous because Jesus is our righteousness! We are dead and hidden in Jesus and as is Scripture, "Where there is no law, there is no sin". and "Christ is the end of the law of the law for righteousness to all who believe"

 

[amigo de christo]

Jesus is not sin loving- Just sin forgiving. that is not a license to sin a sPaul declared.

you got that right my freind . only satan and his co workers would ever have dared to preach
this rainbow jesus , this big money money jesus , this jesus that accepts sins , even calls evil good and good evil .
MANY FOLLOW THE DRAGON . HE is their father .
Just as with the jews who cried to JESUS , GOD IS OUR FATHER
but he said to them YE are of your father the devil .
IT HAS COME UPON CHRISTENDOM . And yeah it breaks my heart . But this sheep only gonna double
down on all warnings .
ENOUGH and away with these light gravy preaching men
TIME TO get the grave men back . TIME to make a stand right now .

 

[Dave Mac]

See the key word you use is "pratice". And in Scripture it means practice as a way of life!

that is a key word for sure, to learn the difference between practice as a way of life and stumble as mess up but you repent is very important, one I see many miss, I am glad you got that !! I really do not know if a believer would go back to practicing sin or not, I can give you scripture that suggest some might, truth be told scripture does not say if we can or can not loose salvation in a plain 100% way.

I do not think salvation is unconditional as OSAS suggest,

 

[Behold]

truth be told scripture does not say if we can or can not loose salvation in a plain 100% way.

Truth be told...

Jesus is Salvation....and you can't "do that".

So, once the baby Christian stops trying to stay saved by BEHAVIOR......and gets their Faith right by understanding that Jesus is Salvation, and not what they do......then they have taken their first step out of the diaper stage of Christianity.
If they never get out of the diapers, then they are Defined as : Hebrews 6:1

 

[GodsGrace]

The above is how you want Scripture to be "used," which is fine, but what you may want in a back-and-forth in a thread is not what others are therefore obliged to give to you. I don't know why I should have to cut-and-paste Scripture that you can't be bothered to look up on your own. I do this very thing all the time in considering what others have posted concerning Scripture, looking up Scripture verses and passages that they've cited in their posts. Is there any good reason why you can't do the same?

In a debate it's up to YOU to defend what you're saying.
It's not up to ME to do the work for you.

You might want to check out, for example, @Dave Mac 's post no. 573.
He made a statement and backed it up with scripture.

THIS is how it's done.

YOU must provide support for your statements...

THIS is the THEOLOGY FORUM and in theology one must be scriptural.
Maybe this particular forum does not require this...
but serious conversation does.

I didn't say you were confused on this point. And I'm sure I'm not, so I don't get why you're writing this...



I think you're so keen to be disagreeable that you aren't actually understanding what I'm explaining to you.

I understand what you're saying very well.

And so far, this is a waste of time.
Why not respond to my statements instead of making comments ABOUT them?

Anyway, in point of fact, we have no power of our own to resist sin. Only the Spirit in us has that power, who is powerful for us as we submit to his control throughout every day (2 Co. 3:18; Eph. 3:16; 6:10; Ro. 8:13, Phil. 2:13, etc.). All we do, in the end, is work out what he, by his divine power, works into us.

Agreed.
So why not state this instead of saying that we can choose to disobey God?

Yes, I do say that Christians make a choice as to which nature they will follow every day (and many times a day). And this is evident in what Paul wrote in Romans 7:14-22 and Galatians 5:17, in the conduct of the believers at Corinth (1 Co. 3, 5, 6, 11) and in the province of Galatia (Ga. 3:3), and in the churches of Sardis and Laodicea (Rev. 3). All these are examples of born-again people choosing NOT to live according to their "new creature in Christ" nature (2 Co. 5:17). It wasn't the way they should have been living, but they did so anyway, as many - if not the majority - of Christians do today.

Here we go again.

NOW you're stating that we do NOT have to obey God.
And
I see no scripture supporting this odd idea that God does not require obedience from us.

If a person is NOT obeying God....he is not a Christian.

Here's what John taught:

1 John 3:2-6
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever * keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.


John teaches that:

We have come to know Him IF we keep His commandments.
If we SAY we know Jesus but do NOT keep His commandments, we are a liar.
Whoever KEEPS HIS WORD has the love of God in him.
The one who says he abides in Christ ought to walk in the same way as Jesus walked.

Yes, the Bible commands us to be spiritually-minded, to walk according to the will and way of the Spirit, according to our new nature, and not according to our fleshly mind (and nature). This I already indicated to you very clearly:

"When I say a Christian may still choose to live in sin I am NOT indicating that any Christian SHOULD do so, or that God is okay with the Christian who lives according to the dictates of their old, unregenerate Self. Of course not. I mean only that the born-again person has a sin-nature as well as a new nature in Christ and that these war against each other within the Christian (Ga. 5:17), as Paul described in Romans 7:14-22."

You keep referring to Romans 7:14-22
Too bad you never post the scripture.

We all know that we have a conflict within us.
But we also know that we are to follow the spirit and I've offered several verses.

Paul teaches that if we do not follow Jesus, we do not have His spirit in us:

Romans 8:6-9
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot * please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Paul states that anyone that does not have the spirit of Christ in him does not belong to Christ.
And the one who does belong to Christ is in the Spirit because being in the flesh cannot please God.

You use the word SHOULD....
there is no SHOULD in the NT...
only instruction on how to belong to the Kingdom of God.

"Anyway, no Christian should be directed by the old Self as Romans 6:1-11 explains..."



??? See above. If the "choice for the Christian person is to follow Jesus" then there must have been an alternative. No one makes a choice to do what they have no other option but to do. Scripture, though, shows us many examples of Christians choosing not to live according to the Spirit and being criticized because of their choice.

Could you please post some scripture that shows examples of Christians choosing not to live according to the Spirit?
I can't think of any off-hand.

 

[GodsGrace]

Truth be told...

Jesus is Salvation....and you can't "do that".

So, once the baby Christian stops trying to stay saved by BEHAVIOR......and gets their Faith right by understanding that Jesus is Salvation, and not what they do......then they have taken their first step out of the diaper stage of Christianity.
If they never get out of the diapers, then they are Defined as : Hebrews 6:1

And yet BEHAVIOR is all Jesus spoke of.


Here is the wise man:
Matthew 7:24
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.


Acts on the words of Jesus means that we do what He taught.


Here is the foolish man whose house fell:
Matthew 7:26
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.


In the Beatitudes Jesus is teaching how a person can belong to the Kingdom of God.
He compares a person to one that is wise and one that is foolish.

God wants us to be wise. And ACT on His words.

 

[GodsGrace]

Uh oh. Have you taken up a sinless perfection belief? I sure hope not. See 1 John 1:8.

Christians may live according to who they are in Christ, or they may not. But if they choose the latter, they demonstrate either that they are not saved, or that they badly misunderstand what it is to know and walk with God. If the latter circumstance is the case, their salvation is not in jeopardy, only their fellowship with God. No one's salvation in any way depends on them but on Christ, the Savior. He is the only One who saves; we only receive his salvation of us (Ac. 4:12; Jn. 14:6; Eph. 2:8-9; Tit. 3:5; Ro. 5:6-10).

I see.
So Jesus spend over 3 years teaching how to have FELLOWSHIP with God....
or did Jesus die on that cross to get us to heaven?

A person CANNOT have fellowship with God unless he OBEYS God.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."


As to the idea that one was "never saved"....Jesus taught that one could fall away from salvation:

Luke 8:13
13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.


They hear.
They receive the word with joy.
They believe FOR A WHILE....
and then (due to temptation) they FALL AWAY.

In this thread, I've already explained the difference between what is natural to Christian living and what is necessary to it, showing that the "fruit" of good works, while natural to being a child of God are not, therefore, necessary to being one.

And here is where you state something Christianity does not teach.
It IS NECESSARY to bear fruit in order to be a child of God.


Here is what Jesus stated.

John 15:1-2
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.


JESUS said that His Father is the vinedresser.
Every branch that DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT.....God takes away.

In Verse 6 Jesus states that the branch will be thrown away and cast into the fire.
It is a USELESS branch that will be discarded.

6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

I won't do so again here. Suffice it to say that a boat in dry-dock getting its hull painted and repaired is still a boat though it is not floating on water, as is natural to being what it is. This is because floating on water, though naturally what a boat does, is not necessary to it being a boat. In the same way, though it is natural to being a child of God to bear the fruit of righteousness, it is not therefore necessary to being His child. See the story of the Prodigal (Lu. 15:11-32). Consider Paul's words to the carnal babes in Christ at Corinth (1 Co. 3:1).

I do wonder which part of the Prodigal Son you believe I should read....

In the story of the Prodigal Son JESUS states that salvation can be lost.
The prodigal son became lost.

Here is what Jesus taught:

Luke 15:24
24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.


Jesus taught that the son had come to life AGAIN...
so
the son was saved
then became lost
then was saved AGAIN.

To "abide in Christ" is just another way of saying "saved." One cannot, after all, be saved and not abide in him. See Ephesians 1:1-13, Romans 13:14; Galatians 3:27-28. And once you're saved, there is no undoing what Christ has done in saving you. His work is everlasting, eternal and no one can pluck his own out of his hand (Jn. 10:27-29; He. 13:5; John 3:16) The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable (Ro. 11:29).

Of course there's undoing...

I just showed above with my scripture that Jesus Himself stated we could become lost after being saved.
I posted Luke 8:13 and Luke 15:24

It would behoove us to listen to Jesus and not those that teach a modern day idea that is called OSAS.

And so, it is no surprise to see that none of the verses you gave in the quotation above say anything like "If one is not living the Christian life, one is not abiding in Christ and is not saved."

You want a perfect verse stating EXACTLY what Jesus or Paul or any of the writers said?

OK.
How about providing a verse that states EXACTLY that a person that is saved can NEVER lose their salvation no matter if they obey God or not or no matter if they produce fruit or not.

Simply repeating your non sequitur doesn't change that it is a non sequitur.

For the reasons I already explained, referring to Romans 7:14-22 doesn't mean I "like" the passage (whatever that means). And since you think I didn't explain why I offered the passage, you should have asked me why I did, if you wanted to know, rather than making non sequitur assumptions.

Well, you sure to MENTION Romans 7:14-22 a lot.
So I can only presume that you like it.

No, not being "steadfast in faith" does not mean "no faith." Was Peter "steadfast in faith" during Christ's Passion?

Peter was VERY steadfast in his faith.
He died a martyrs death after preaching the gospel throughout the Roman Empire.

Here's what Peter said:
1 Peter 4:1-2
1 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,
2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

What about the Christians in Galatia who were so weak in faith they were being brought under OT law-keeping (Ga. 3:1-3). What about the believers in the church of Laodicea who were "wretched, poor, blind and naked"? Were they being "steadfast in the faith"? None of these examples were "steadfast in faith" but none of them were accused in Scripture of being entirely without faith. Peter, who publicly denied Christ three times, went on to be a "pillar" of the Early Church.



This is just saved-and-lost propaganda, I'm afraid; it's dismissive, partisan rhetoric that proves nothing.

I posted scripture.
I posted what Jesus taught and what Paul taught and what Peter taught.

If you prefer not to follow what they taught that is your decision.

Those reading along will come to their decision also.

We will be judged by our actions.

John 5:28-29 Jesus said.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

No choice.
No SHOULD.

 

[GodsGrace]

1 John 1:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

The OSAS love this verse.
Too bad it's speaking about gnostics that had entered into the church and decided it was not for them.

Study up on some church history.

 

[Dave Mac]

I see.
So Jesus spend over 3 years teaching how to have FELLOWSHIP with God....
or did Jesus die on that cross to get us to heaven?

A person CANNOT have fellowship with God unless he OBEYS God.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."


As to the idea that one was "never saved"....Jesus taught that one could fall away from salvation:

Luke 8:13
13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.


They hear.
They receive the word with joy.
They believe FOR A WHILE....
and then (due to temptation) they FALL AWAY.



And here is where you state something Christianity does not teach.
It IS NECESSARY to bear fruit in order to be a child of God.


Here is what Jesus stated.

John 15:1-2
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.


JESUS said that His Father is the vinedresser.
Every branch that DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT.....God takes away.

In Verse 6 Jesus states that the branch will be thrown away and cast into the fire.
It is a USELESS branch that will be discarded.

6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

I do wonder which part of the Prodigal Son you believe I should read....

In the story of the Prodigal Son JESUS states that salvation can be lost.
The prodigal son became lost.

Here is what Jesus taught:

Luke 15:24
24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.


Jesus taught that the son had come to life AGAIN...
so
the son was saved
then became lost
then was saved AGAIN.



Of course there's undoing...

I just showed above with my scripture that Jesus Himself stated we could become lost after being saved.
I posted Luke 8:13 and Luke 15:24

It would behoove us to listen to Jesus and not those that teach a modern day idea that is called OSAS.


You want a perfect verse stating EXACTLY what Jesus or Paul or any of the writers said?

OK.
How about providing a verse that states EXACTLY that a person that is saved can NEVER lose their salvation no matter if they obey God or not or no matter if they produce fruit or not.



Well, you sure to MENTION Romans 7:14-22 a lot.
So I can only presume that you like it.

Peter was VERY steadfast in his faith.
He died a martyrs death after preaching the gospel throughout the Roman Empire.

Here's what Peter said:
1 Peter 4:1-2
1 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,
2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

I posted scripture.
I posted what Jesus taught and what Paul taught and what Peter taught.

If you prefer not to follow what they taught that is your decision.

Those reading along will come to their decision also.

We will be judged by our actions.

John 5:28-29 Jesus said.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

No choice.
No SHOULD.

talk about a good post, I borrowed some of the scripture for another forumns on the same subject FYI, I did add my own thoughts though, great post !

 

[GodsGrace]

lets look at the rest of this scripture 11. And such { were some of you} : but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

the security of our salvation is there . what it is not is a license to do as we please when we please

Romans​

Chapter 6​

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 { God forbid.} How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


the doctrine in question is pretty close.. the problem is those who say osas and end up living like hell 24/7 with no fruit of repentance . i just seriously doubt they truly had salvation... we will sin it is possible to fall into adultery etc ..But much like the prodigal son . we should return and most cases its after we hit rock bottom . GOD though the holy spirit chastises us ---correction

And herein is the problem Ezra....

The OSAS side plainly states that one can live a life of sin and still be saved.
Some come to believe this but it seems to me that you understand that this cannot be.
And yet some teach this on these forums!

It is very dangerous to teach osas and think that obedience to God is not important.
All Jesus taught was obedience to God.

Better that we should show from scripture all the warnings about the possibility of forfeiting our salvation if we do not obey Jesus' teachings.

It is clearly stated that those who endure to the end will be saved.
THIS is what should be taught...both in churches and on these forums.

New Christians can easily be misled.

1 John 3:7-10
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No * one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot * sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God,