Is it possible to lose salvation?

[amigo de christo]

1 John 1:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

again this is a very lovely truth .
But again even the churches warned their own THEY MUST continue IN HIM .
SO how come when i do so today
its OH you dont trust in THE WORKS OF CHRIST .
OH YES I DO . AND I do something , by HIS GRACE , that many no longer do .
I ACTUALLY BELEIVE HIS WORDS . something its seems many rather twist it
to fit an acryonm . I KNOW with ZERO DOUBT anyone that comes out , WAS NEVER TRULY OF US .
AND I know with ZERO DOUBT we MUST CONTINUE IN HIM TO THE END .
Cause HE said it as did the apostels . YOU do realize
there is a reason WHY JESUS said what HE DID
WHY GOD spoke as HE DID
WHY HE WARNED
WHY even the aposetls warned . Cause GOD KNOWS HOW , HOW , HOW to KEEP the church safe
and from falling . BUT this is why i have such a problem
with OSAS , cause any time i bring the reminders to continue in HIM
OR any time i bring reminders WHO we serve is whose we are
ITS ALL legalism , you dont trust , YOU dont etc .
RATHER ODD , ITS HIS WORDS I BRING to remind us with .
Sounds to me like rather its THE MANY who dont TRUST IN JESUS , IN HIS FINSIHED WORKS , in HIS WORDS .
when said words contradict their beleif . that is real bad too .

 

[Ezra]

first let me say i saw some good truths .

let me say we just cant connect ... no matter what truth i post you know more . in other post you completely twisted my post on the lady leaving the Church.. i find no encouragement with you

 

[amigo de christo]

let me say we just cant connect ... no matter what truth i post you know more . in other post you completely twisted my post on the lady leaving the Church.. i find no encouragement with you

That example you brought was something you probably heard one teach .
Very crafity these men are my friend .
The goal of that writing is to convince us
that those who are aware of sins in others
ARE NOT FOCUSING ON JESUS
and its meant to Just get all to ignore sin and error in the church
under the guise one is not LOOKING unto CHRIST .
Try asking simple short questoins to me . And you TEST my answers .
This is the easiest and simpliest way to clear up any confusion on anyones part .
SO ask me a questoin or two that pops into your mind .
And you watch and test how i answer it . AND compare it always to what was written
This is real easy to clear up my friend . Real easy .
SO rather than accusing me of not being this or that .
ASK me questions about whatever confusion you might have in what i said .
This can real quickly be cleared up .

 

[amigo de christo]

let me say we just cant connect ... no matter what truth i post you know more . in other post you completely twisted my post on the lady leaving the Church.. i find no encouragement with you

Now what if i used that same arugment against you . OH no matter what i say YOU KNOW more .
Rather what we need to do
IS PROVE whether what one is speaking is TRUTH nor not .
I mean i , by grace KNOW not to approach like that . RATHER all i did was bring you the truth .
Can you show me where i taught error
in what I SAID TO YOU . AND i even agreed you had brought some good truths .
I JUST went on to explain something .
SO let me ask you a question .
WHERE IS MY SIN , MY ERROR
in what i wrote to you . show me that . lets start with that .
YOU could maybe say , HEY DUDE we DONT HAVE TO CONTINUE IN HIM TO THE END .
but i dont think you are that crazy . My point is , SHOW ME my error
rather than just making cliams of what i do and how i so called KNOW more than you .
SHOW ME by the scripture my error . AND by scrips i will happily show you yours IF or when i see them .

 

[Ezra]

That example you brought was something you probably heard one teach .
Very crafity these men are my friend .
The goal of that writing is to convince us
that those who are aware of sins in others
ARE NOT FOCUSING ON JESUS
and its meant to Just get all to ignore sin and error in the church
under the guise one is not LOOKING unto CHRIST .
Try asking simple short questoins to me . And you TEST my answers .
This is the easiest and simpliest way to clear up any confusion on anyones part .
SO ask me a questoin or two that pops into your mind .
And you watch and test how i answer it . AND compare it always to what was written
This is real easy to clear up my friend . Real easy .
SO rather than accusing me of not being this or that .
ASK me questions about whatever confusion you might have in what i said .
This can real quickly be cleared up .

were done you sit behind a computer and act like you know me

 

[Kokyu]

1 Timothy 4:1
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,


Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away,,,,


Hebrews 3:12
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.


1 Timothy 4:16
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.


1 Corinthians 9:27
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.


There are more but the above should suffice.

Suffice for what?

What does it mean to "fall away from the faith"? The Galatian Christians were being seduced by Judaizers, lured back under the impossible law-keeping approach to God that Christ had abolished (He. 7-10:22) through his atoning work at Calvary. Paul is quite fierce in his criticism of the Judaizers (Ga. 1:7; 5:12) and in his plea to the Christians in Galatia not to come under bondage to the condemnation of the Old Covenant (Ga. 3:3; 4:9-11). But Paul never says to the believers in Galatia who were returning to the "weak and beggarly elements" of Old Covenant law-keeping that they were therefore unsaved. Instead, Paul refers to them repeatedly as "brethren" (Ga. 1:11; 3:15; 4:12, 28, etc.) and "sons of God" (Ga. 3:26; 4:6) confirming that they were in Christ (Ga. 3:27-29).

You assume that "fall away from the faith" means "unsaved" but Paul never actually says this in any of the verses you've posted above. Was Paul incapable of being explicit and writing "not saved" or "unsaved" or "you've lost your salvation"? Obviously not. And yet, he never writes anything of this sort in any of his letters. Look at the first verse you offered in context:

1 Timothy 4:1-5
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving;
5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

What does Paul mean by "fall away from the faith" in the context of this passage? Does he ever say they are unsaved? No. Does he say "And so, they have lost their salvation"? No. Does he say, "Thus God has rejected them from His family and kingdom"? No. But he does say that those who've "fallen away from the faith" have:

- given heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.
- speak lies in hypocrisy.
- possess a seared conscience.
- forbid marriage, and abstinence from certain foods.

I've always thought it strange, this passage. The people Paul describes who've "fallen away" aren't off into some perverse sexuality, or worship of pagan idols, or denying Jesus was God, but are just forbidding marriage and abstinence from certain foods. Sounds rather like the Judaizers in the province of Galatia. In any case, Paul says nothing in his description of those who've "fallen away" of lost salvation, or God ejecting them from His family and kingdom. Such a construction on Paul's words you're imposing, not actually extracting from what he wrote.

Hebrews 6:1-8
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this we will do if God permits.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.

Here, too, the question is: What does "fall away" mean? As well, what difference, if any, does the conditional term "if" make to what is being said in verse 6? And who, exactly, is in view in verses 4-6? Is it actually a born-again person?

The writer of Hebrews explains what he means by "fall away":

- cannot be renewed again to repentance.
- crucify the Son of God again and put him to an open shame.

Again, what isn't said is that the one who "falls away" is no longer saved, or unsaved, or has lost their salvation, or is thrust out of God's family and kingdom - all much simpler, more explicit ways to say such a thing if it is was what was intended.

 

[Kokyu]

Who is in view in verses 4-6? A person who is:

- enlightened.
- tasted the heavenly gift.
- partakers of the Holy Spirit.
- tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come.

What sort of enlightenment, tasting, and partaking would it be reasonable to think a person has who "falls away" (from what isn't stipulated explicitly)? Is it unreasonable to think such a person was never actually saved? If the "falling away" entailed departing entirely from the faith, John says the following:

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Here, then, is scriptural cause to think that those who were enlightened, had tasted and partaken were, despite these things, never truly born again. Can one be enlightened and not saved? Yes. I know atheists, agnostics and Muslims who have a far better handle on the Gospel and the basic doctrines of the Christian faith than the average Christian in North America. They can articulate very clearly the truths of the Gospel, from memory giving chapter and verse, even. I've had discussions with them a number of times over the years and watched a few of them in debates with Christian apologists. To the degree they understand the Gospel and Christian doctrine, they are enlightened to it, but the word does not profit them spiritually, not being mixed with faith (He. 4:2).

Could this not be the same sort of "enlightened" person Hebrews 6:4 describes? I don't see why not. In the NT, every group of Early Church believers that had to be instructed and corrected by Paul or John, Peter or James, demonstrate that its possible to be only partially enlightened to God's Truth. But if genuine believers needed further enlightenment, as the NT demonstrates they did, it's quite reasonable to think that there were non-believers in the Church who also had only a second-hand, fractured understanding of God's Truth, who were enlightened only to a degree, too. Must one think, then, that Hebrews 6:4 is speaking only of a saved person? Not at all. It seems much more plausible to me in light of their "falling away" to understand that the "enlightened" people described in the verse were not truly saved.

What about "partaking"? I've known men and women in the Church who had taught Sunday School classes, served as deacons, led Bible studies and so on who realized they were not actually saved. They had been partakers in the life and work of the Church for decades, in some cases, sharing in what the Holy Spirit was doing in and through their particular congregation of Christians, but were not themselves truly born-again people. It's possible, then, for a person to be a "sharer" in, or partaker in, the Holy Spirit in the second-hand manner of these false converts, praying to God, singing songs of worship to Him, teaching His Truth to others, but not actually truly indwelt by the Spirit.

This sort of "partaking" is suggested, it seems to me, very clearly in the description of having only "tasted" of the things of God (heavenly gift, word of God). If I taste a piece of apple pie, I haven't necessarily eaten the whole thing. In fact, if I say I only tasted something, commonly folk would think I'd had only a sampling of it. Certainly, this could be the case for those "partaking" of the Spirit who have only "tasted of the heavenly gift" (who is the Spirit of Christ). And inasmuch as these "partakers" and "tasters" "fall away," they appear to me to confirm that they had only a second-hand, partial knowledge and experience of the Holy Spirit, and God's Truth.

And then, there's that "if" at the beginning of verse 4. Everything that follows this word is conditioned upon it. In other words, it's impossible to renew to repentance those described in verse 4 IF they were to "fall away." But this means that verse 4 is describing a hypothetical situation, not an actual one. Verse 4 doesn't say that there were such people; it doesn't say that there had been such people; it doesn't say that there would be such people; no, verse 4 describes only a theoretical/hypothetical circumstance that is not concerned with a person losing their salvation but with why a person who had "fallen away" from their change of mind (repentance) concerning Christ and the Gospel couldn't be "renewed again to repentance" about these things.

The enlightened, partaking, and tasting person would have to have had some measure of repentance - a change of mind - about the Gospel and Jesus Christ. If having had this change of mind (to whatever degree), they "fall away" from it, doubting the Gospel and salvation through Jesus, having done so, they become "inoculated" to these things, unable to take them up again. This is all the writer of Hebrews is remarking on in Hebrews 6:4-6, offering a hypothetical, a sort of thought-experiment, not an actual circumstance.

And so it goes, each of your offered proof-texts failing to make the case for your saved-and-lost/works salvation doctrine. It's fascinating to me, though, how you just assume they say what you think they say. Amazing (and not a little disturbing).

 

[Kokyu]

again this is a very lovely truth .
But again even the churches warned their own THEY MUST continue IN HIM .

To what end, though? Some want to say "to the end they keep themselves saved." But I think Scripture teaches that believers are to do as God's word commands, not to retain salvation, to retain one's relationship to God as His adopted child, but to enjoy daily, life-changing fellowship with Him. There's a BIG difference between being related to God as His child and being in fellowship with Him, which the parable of the Prodigal Son well illustrates (Lu. 15:11-32). It's from fellowship with God (1 Co. 1:9; 2 Co. 13:14; 1 Jn. 1:3; Rev. 3:20, etc.) and all its tremendous spiritual benefits that one may "fall away," never from one's adoption that one can only receive, not achieve.

SO how come when i do so today
its OH you dont trust in THE WORKS OF CHRIST .

Well, because when you put yourself in the "mix" of your salvation as the one who works to keep it, you imply that Jesus's salvation of you was not perfect and complete. If it were, you'd not have to add any of your own effort to it in order to retain it. But Scripture says that Jesus's once-for-all atonement for us was perfect, fully satisfying God's holy justice. Read Hebrews 7-10:22. Because this is the case, there aren't any works we can do that can add to Jesus's perfect work on the cross (Eph. 2:8-9; Tit. 3:5; 2 Ti. 1:9). All we can do is receive from God His gift of salvation. And so, when you say that a Christian has to work to keep their salvation, it sounds to the OSAS folk like you're denying the fullness and perfection of Christ's atoning work on the cross.

OH YES I DO . AND I do something , by HIS GRACE , that many no longer do .
I ACTUALLY BELEIVE HIS WORDS . something its seems many rather twist it
to fit an acryonm .

I believe in OSAS, but I don't disbelieve God's word. Just the opposite, actually.

I KNOW with ZERO DOUBT anyone that comes out , WAS NEVER TRULY OF US .
AND I know with ZERO DOUBT we MUST CONTINUE IN HIM TO THE END .

Our confidence in a thing doesn't make it true. A person can, after all, be very confident about something about which they're in profound error. For example, I went once to an appointment only to discover it was for the following week on the same day. I'd shown up for the appointment, though, totally sure it was for the day I'd thought it was. It didn't matter, though, that I was so confident in my belief about the appointment; I was still wrong about it. And so, what certifies whether or not what we think about God's Truth is actually true, is the plain declaration of God's word, not our level of confidence in our belief about what it says.

BUT this is why i have such a problem
with OSAS , cause any time i bring the reminders to continue in HIM
OR any time i bring reminders WHO we serve is whose we are
ITS ALL legalism , you dont trust , YOU dont etc .

There is legalism out there, right? And it deserves to be criticized. But I think the modern Church in North America is waaaay too far in the "don't judge me" direction, refusing to have any serious discussion about sin and holiness. And so, the charge of "legalism" is thrown out much too easily, applied inappropriately far too often. The terrible consequence of this is not lost salvation, though, but lost fellowship with God. But because so few Christians actually enjoy daily fellowship with Him, they have no idea how great is the loss of that fellowship.

 

[Marvelloustime]

Now what if i used that same arugment against you . OH no matter what i say YOU KNOW more .
Rather what we need to do
IS PROVE whether what one is speaking is TRUTH nor not .
I mean i , by grace KNOW not to approach like that . RATHER all i did was bring you the truth .
Can you show me where i taught error
in what I SAID TO YOU . AND i even agreed you had brought some good truths .
I JUST went on to explain something .
SO let me ask you a question .
WHERE IS MY SIN , MY ERROR
in what i wrote to you . show me that . lets start with that .
YOU could maybe say , HEY DUDE we DONT HAVE TO CONTINUE IN HIM TO THE END .
but i dont think you are that crazy . My point is , SHOW ME my error
rather than just making cliams of what i do and how i so called KNOW more than you .
SHOW ME by the scripture my error . AND by scrips i will happily show you yours IF or when i see them .

@amigo de christo

 

[Ronald Nolette]

cause many follow a sin loving sin accepting jesus IS WHY . and as you know , and by grace i know
THAT AINT JESUS and it cannot save them . Reminders are always good .
SO LONG as the reminders BE TRUTH . Now double down and trench time . This be the last hour my friend .

Jesus is not sin loving- Just sin forgiving. that is not a license to sin a sPaul declared.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

salvation unconditional is what OSAS suggest,

yet the bible tells us if we do certain things we will not inherit the kingdom of God

if you think your saved and practice any of these things you are not going going to heaven unless you repent. unconditional salvation is lie of this world to get you comfortable, we are never to get comfortable with this world !!

1 Corinthians 6:9-10​

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

See the key word you use is "pratice". And in Scripture it means practice as a way of life! And no believers will not do that. They may fall for a season, but like the prodigal son, they will come back. And when first saved many live in sins simply because they have not learned yet.

Believers are righteous because Jesus is our righteousness! We are dead and hidden in Jesus and as is Scripture, "Where there is no law, there is no sin". and "Christ is the end of the law of the law for righteousness to all who believe"