WHAT IS THE WATER IN JOHN 3:5?

[David in NJ]

Very interesting catch there David

Indeed John spoke about Nicodemus before he spoke of baptism of the Spirit.

However, we have to remember that John is writing many years after Jesus had ascended.
I don't think everything in the NT is precisely in time-order.

However, I do tend to agree that the water is natural birth.....the flesh is born -
and then a SECOND birth is necessary.....the one of our spirit.

imho = the Holy Spirit directed John with the Highest Precision of Understanding from the very beginning in chapter 1

There is a flow of Truth in the Gospel of John that distinguishes it from the other gospels.
All Four gospels are the SAME Gospel that SAVES us.

if God permits i will right a book on this understanding that begins in Genesis

It is not new revelation but rather understanding of that which is written that the Holy Spirit desires us to SEE and Rejoice in.

You already picked UP on a part of it.

SHALOM

 

[GodsGrace]

imho = the Holy Spirit directed John with the Highest Precision of Understanding from the very beginning in chapter 1

There is a flow of Truth in the Gospel of John that distinguishes it from the other gospels.
All Four gospels are the SAME Gospel that SAVES us.

if God permits i will right a book on this understanding that begins in Genesis

It is not new revelation but rather understanding of that which is written that the Holy Spirit desires us to SEE and Rejoice in.

You already picked UP on a part of it.

SHALOM

John certainly is different from the other, synoptic, gospels.
It's my favorite, as I'm sure it is of many Christians.
If you really get this book done...let us know.

 

[mailmandan]

I certainly do see how it fits and I didn't say it doesn't.
This interpretation was listed in my OP and some theologians do believe the water is the word.

BUT,,,I might have asked this already,,,,HOW do you explain that if the water is the word it's like saying SPIRT 2X.

In John 7:37-39, which you posted above, Jesus says that rivers of living water will flow out of the heart...
then in verse 39 it states that Jesus spoke this about the Spirit.

So doesn't it make sense that the water is the Spirit?? (instead of the word).

And IF it IS the Spirit isn't that like saying that one must be born of spirit and the spirit??

Just thinking out loud.

The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. Water baptism can only reach the flesh. It cannot cleanse the heart from sin.

 

[amigo de christo]

The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. Water baptism can only reach the flesh. It cannot cleanse the heart from sin.

But the blood OF JESUS sure can . it reaches to the inner conscious .
Now lift those hands , cause IT BE LORD PRAISING and LORD THANKING time in the building .

 

[Fred J]

I don't know why specifically why Jesus mentioned being born again 2X in John 3:3 and 3:5...
however, I do know that when Jesus said something twice He was bringing attention to it or announcing that He was going to say something very important. For instance when He said "verily, verily I say...."

If you know why, please tell.

Should i call you Mary, but GodsGrace is fine, because i can picture you like Mary sitting down beside Jesus and listening to what the Kingdom of GOD is like.

Hilarious in a good way because it happens in many households, Martha chose to cook the best meal for Jesus and His disciples. The preparation and cooking became challenging and tiresome for Martha, even to the point tormented why Mary is not helping me, and end up complaining to the Lord.
And in return the Lord coolly corrected Martha and commented Mary, naturally i felt sorry for Martha and disappointed with Mary, but Jesus spiritually is always 'just'.
i believe Jesus is not all about food, for He's obedient to His FATHER and does HIS will 24/7, overwhelming right?
This is because at the well with the Samaritan woman, disciples felt sorry that He must be hungry, went to the town to get Him a 'Kebab', figuratively speaking.
But He just answered, 'My food is to do My FATHER's will.' (It went completely silent..........) This reminds me the song, 'Imagine'.
When i was babes in Christ lamb, i taught when i meet Jesus, i want to talk and question, but when am a sheep, will i be 'dumbstruck' at His present?

Sorry to get side track there, let's get back to the FATHER's business, thank you.

Why did Jesus spoke of it 'twice', interesting, generally i had to come across passages few times until light bulb lights up.

Acceptable according to you, He's making a strong point and want that point to get through to the listeners, bravo!

That's one thing, yes He said, "If you have ears, listen and pay attention." (not the natural ears but the spiritual one after becoming born again)

Twice is not a repetition, but He's making two very string points, that, there are two stages of becoming born from above.

First stage, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be 'born again', he cannot 'see' the kingdom of GOD." (verse 3)

Second stage, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be 'born of water and of the Spirit', he cannot 'enter' into the Kingdom of GOD."

Do you see and perceive the amazing hidden secrets in the word of GOD?

Here's how it was for me and I believe we all have a different experience.
When I was a new Christian I was just so thankful to God for letting me know His Son and I saw everything in a new light.
As I grew and time passed it became easier and easier to make choices that would please God.
Some may find it easier to be pleasing to God and some may find it more difficult...

I believe the important aspect of this is that we're doing our best, and God knows if we're doing our best.
We can trick man, but we cannot trick God.

As long as we love God and give our best effort to please Him,,,I believe we're in safe hands.
And I also believe that we are unable to do anything until the Holy Spirit directs us and when HE directs us it become simple...
or, at least, more simple/easy.

And our flesh will always come into conflict with our spirit....
so we ask forgiveness and carry on, and do not dwell on whatever it is we've done.
Every Christian experiences this....hence, the Holy Spirit,,,our helper.

Shalom to you!

You're right, your experience is different from mine and mine from yours, agreed.

Yes, when i was babes in Christ lamb it was much more easier, and now am a sheep it's getting harder to stand on my faith.

Am too full of confession and excuses, but the word of GOD(double edged sword) cuts through to the depths of one's very heart, and am without excuse...

Words like, 'You sins are forgiven sin no more, or something worst shall come upon you.'

'Be ye perfect as your FATHER in heaven is perfect.'

'Those who hear My words and does them, liken unto a wise builder who place his house on the rock, and compare to the one who does not.'

'Those who obey My commandments truly love Me, and the one obey not, love Me not.'

Many more and i can become tired and weary of my incompetent to sustain on that foundation.

It's like a judge who's wise in every judgement of his, but in his personal life he's lawless and corrupt.

Shame on me, sorry to get emotional back there, am cool back now......., may the good GOD the FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ help us all.

Times are getting harder for our faith, 'Lawlessness shall increase and people will be going to and fro.'

They'll be lovers of themselves, violent, unpeaceable, haughty ect,

Jesus said pray to the FATHER that HE helps us escape tribulation, is not like He'll remove us from the tribulation but help us get trough.

i hope it was worthwhile for you and may GOD bless you in Jesus name, shalom!

 

[Fred J]

However, I do tend to agree that the water is natural birth.....the flesh is born -
and then a SECOND birth is necessary.....the one of our spirit.

Ciao, is this your perception in regards to verse 5, am bit taken back?

You mean that the water bag in the mother womb where the baby is, of that is the natural water birth Jesus is speaking about in verse 5?

Perhaps am wrong?

Based on the New Testament scripture in context, i perceive it the following way.

Baptism of natural water on earth, i go in and come out the water and have done it in 'faith'. (and not that anything magical transformation will happen to me)

In faith the water symbolize the ground, where am burying my old self-centered person and resurrect a new creature/person.

And in faith the Spirit symbolize a figure, now am a child of GOD, He's my Helper and Comforter who will descend and reside in me.

And the fire symbolize the tongue, as how the Apostles received on the day of Pentecost to proclaim the Gospel and make disciple of all nation.

Jesus the Master Himself was baptized in the river Jordan and when He came out of the water, the Holy Ghost in the form of a dove, descended on Him.

Aren't we suppose to 'imitate' our Master, who's disciples were also water baptizing others after that, till the book of Acts?

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[pandaflower]

I think the water in that verse is Holy Spirit.
John 4:14

 

[JohnDB]

Hi John
Thanks so much!
I seem to remember that we might have discussed this quite some years ago on the other forum.
I remember that BORN FROM ABOVE is what was being dicussed as opposed to being BORN AGAIN.
Translation error if I remember right.
The above would really limit who could be born from above...
except that we become our own priests, as you explained.

So one had to be "declared" from heaven,,,from above....born from above...
after he also had completed his task.

Great post !

Well,
You didn't have to be named specifically as in Nicodemus's case or like the Apostles.

And as far as the Priesthood of Every Believer....fairly common Evangelical/Protestant theological belief. One that keeps the Catholics and Evangelicals from re-uniting once again under the same umbrella.

It's those American Catholics that are the problem....the rest of the World's Catholics are OK with the Evangelical's theology.
"Winds of Doctrine " are radically different in every corner of the world. I've found it fascinating myself.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. Water baptism can only reach the flesh. It cannot cleanse the heart from sin.

John said there will be one that baptizes with fir and spirit.

The difference between John's baptism and Jesus' baptism is the same difference found in
the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant.

The requirements are the same.
The method is different.

In the Mosaic Covenant it depended on the obedience by ONLY man's will.
In the New Covenant is depends on the working of the Holy Spirit in the heart.

Jesus said our righteousness must be GREATER than that of the Pharisees.
Matthew 5:20
20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

I believe it's very important to understand what Jesus meant by this.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well,
You didn't have to be named specifically as in Nicodemus's case or like the Apostles.

And as far as the Priesthood of Every Believer....fairly common Evangelical/Protestant theological belief. One that keeps the Catholics and Evangelicals from re-uniting once again under the same umbrella.

Interesting...
The CC here does teach that we are each a priest.
Of course they don't really explain what that means, to the laity...
some bible study would be nice.

I used to go to a good study with a Catholic monk, for about 12 years, (boy time flies by)...but he stopped with Covid and never restarted the program...too bad, there was a nice little group too. He'd mention Mary every now and then, but nothing that would cause any debate and what he taught was all biblical.

But the local CC here, which is all I really have avx to me, has attempted to do some type of bible study, but the outcome is not good and many stop going. I know why - I THINK I know why - but too much to get into.

It's those American Catholics that are the problem....the rest of the World's Catholics are OK with the Evangelical's theology.
"Winds of Doctrine " are radically different in every corner of the world. I've found it fascinating myself.

Just look at the difference with the Bishops in Germany.
They should start their own religion.
And Francis didn't help any.
He left a mess.

Wandering from the bible is always dangerous.

 

[mailmandan]

John said there will be one that baptizes with fir and spirit.

The difference between John's baptism and Jesus' baptism is the same difference found in
the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant.

The requirements are the same.
The method is different.

In the Mosaic Covenant it depended on the obedience by ONLY man's will.
In the New Covenant is depends on the working of the Holy Spirit in the heart.

Jesus said our righteousness must be GREATER than that of the Pharisees.
Matthew 5:20
20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

I believe it's very important to understand what Jesus meant by this.

In regard to Matthew 5:20, this statement from Jesus would come as a shock to the multitude of people who had great admiration of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, for their knowledge of the law and seeming righteousness in external observance of the law, yet Jesus points out their righteousness was defective.

Paul makes it clear in Romans 10:3-4, "For they (Israel) being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES."

We see in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector an example of those who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, yet despised others. (Luke 18:9-14) The righteousness that exceeds the "righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees" (self righteousness) is the righteousness of God which is from God by faith.

Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

Romans 3:21 - But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference.

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The water of the flood saved only a few.

What I wanted you to consider is the connection between how the water of the flood only saved a few. Consider the similarities to how the law was not able to make any perfect. But only
Galatians 3:21-23 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. [22] But the scripture has concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. [23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. <that last verse I think connects to Noah’s Ark being sealed and shut up…where “the water of the flood only saved a few”

Jesus said only a few will be saved because the gate is narrow.

Consider is it God’s good pleasure only a few be saved? then why did God build a better Ark, made not with the hands of men? If God’s good pleasure is only a few be saved then why
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
“I come not to destroy but to save”

In John 14:2 the few is contradicted in Jesus Good news is that there are many rooms …so many He had to go prepared a place to be able to receive it all.
‘In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?’

Point in its men who desire to exclude you …Jesus even said it’s them who keep others from entering in …where only a few find it. I see them waving their hands high and blocking the path, telling people to go away for only a select few are chosen to enter into reconciliation. Jesus clearly said they want to exclude you even, when they themselves don’t enter in. “Few. Few. Few” they shout! I do genuinely believe that is what Jesus was getting at when He said only a few make it in. I don’t think it was applause on His part, but a warning of how men block the way. What do others have to go through is persecution and much suffering of men standing in their path to keep them out and away from reconciliation. god going so far as to set Jesus Christ as “the door” before you, no man can shut, and no man can open. Not just any men but religious prideful men like the pHarisees and Sadducees who even lied, killed, stealers and destroyed to try to keep Jesus from entering in.

But they were saved THROUGH the water; BY the water....Those on land perished.

Buried with Him in the likeness of His death. Those on land is not always a bad thing. When Paul was in the ship and it broke into pieces …all with Paul were told to swim to land; some on the wreckage of the ship but all made it to shore. Consider the imagery of Jesus Christ standing on the dry sand of the land. which disciple even naked under his coat threw himself into the water towards Jesus Christ calling?

If you have ONLY love for the world's goods....you will not be seeking God first.

Here is a contradiction in this. It sounds good saying others are only about this worlds goods but I haven’t met many yet that don’t translate the promise of what clothing will you put on (the New Man created after God) or take no thought for what you will drink (I will give you living water so that you never thirst again) or what will you eat? (I am the bread) …as a promise of the literal clothing, food, and drink. we say that is what God has promised as clothing, drink and food. Is our mind only on those goods?

Seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you: 2 Peter 1:5-8 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; [6] And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; [7] And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. [8] For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. < notice it ends with ‘And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness Charity’ <I still think that is what was missing in Noah’s Ark, whereby only “a few were saved”

The love of God is probably not in that person.

Exactly. How was the love of God in the ark of Noah whereby only a few were saved. Why was there a need for another Ark built of God?

 

[David in NJ]

What I wanted you to consider is the connection between how the water of the flood only saved a few. Consider the similarities to how the law was not able to make any perfect. But only
Galatians 3:21-23 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. [22] But the scripture has concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. [23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. <that last verse I think connects to Noah’s Ark being sealed and shut up…where “the water of the flood only saved a few”



Consider is it God’s good pleasure only a few be saved? then why did God build a better Ark, made not with the hands of men? If God’s good pleasure is only a few be saved then why
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
“I come not to destroy but to save”

In John 14:2 the few is contradicted in Jesus Good news is that there are many rooms …so many He had to go prepared a place to be able to receive it all.
‘In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?’

Point in its men who desire to exclude you …Jesus even said it’s them who keep others from entering in …where only a few find it. I see them waving their hands high and blocking the path, telling people to go away for only a select few are chosen to enter into reconciliation. Jesus clearly said they want to exclude you even, when they themselves don’t enter in. “Few. Few. Few” they shout! I do genuinely believe that is what Jesus was getting at when He said only a few make it in. I don’t think it was applause on His part, but a warning of how men block the way. What do others have to go through is persecution and much suffering of men standing in their path to keep them out and away from reconciliation. god going so far as to set Jesus Christ as “the door” before you, no man can shut, and no man can open. Not just any men but religious prideful men like the pHarisees and Sadducees who even lied, killed, stealers and destroyed to try to keep Jesus from entering in.


Buried with Him in the likeness of His death. Those on land is not always a bad thing. When Paul was in the ship and it broke into pieces …all with Paul were told to swim to land; some on the wreckage of the ship but all made it to shore. Consider the imagery of Jesus Christ standing on the dry sand of the land. which disciple even naked under his coat threw himself into the water towards Jesus Christ calling?

Here is a contradiction in this. It sounds good saying others are only about this worlds goods but I haven’t met many yet that don’t translate the promise of what clothing will you put on (the New Man created after God) or take no thought for what you will drink (I will give you living water so that you never thirst again) or what will you eat? (I am the bread) …as a promise of the literal clothing, food, and drink. we say that is what God has promised as clothing, drink and food. Is our mind only on those goods?

Seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you: 2 Peter 1:5-8 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; [6] And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; [7] And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. [8] For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. < notice it ends with ‘And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness Charity’ <I still think that is what was missing in Noah’s Ark, whereby only “a few were saved”



Exactly. How was the love of God in the ark of Noah whereby only a few were saved. Why was there a need for another Ark built of God?

Consider is it God’s good pleasure only a few be saved? then why did God build a better Ark, made not with the hands of men? If God’s good pleasure is only a few be saved then why
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
“I come not to destroy but to save”

In John 14:2 the few is contradicted in Jesus Good news is that there are many rooms …so many He had to go prepared a place to be able to receive it all.

@GodsGrace is correct in quoting the words of Christ = "few there be that find it"

JESUS compares the trillions of souls being born into this world but only "few" will receive Salvation
JESUS spoke the parable of the sower to explain this

Secondly JESUS also refers back to Noah and repeats the SAME message = "few"

Mathew 24:22 - "and unless the LORD had shortened the days, no flesh would survive, but for the elect's sake HE has shortened the days"

 

[JohnDB]

Interesting...
The CC here does teach that we are each a priest.
Of course they don't really explain what that means, to the laity...
some bible study would be nice

Yeah....no kidding.
The sacrificial system was set up to "remind" God to not forget his promise to Abraham. It was not a "pay for play" type sin offerings.

It goes back to the various animals Abraham split to create the blood flow where God walked the blood path. (As reiterated in Hebrews)
God would see the blood and remember his Promise to Abraham and not forget due to their individual sin. So therefore they would be forgiven. However, the individual was not allowed to approach the altar...a priest was needed, outfitted and consecrated as a priest who had lived his life according to the Laws in Leviticus.

Nowadays,
We do not need a priestly class to teach us the Torah and scriptures. We also do not need sacrifices for a sin offering....nor do we need a priest to intercede for us for our sins.

Jesus is not only our High Priest (atonement day) but also we can tell and teach each other the scriptures where only Levites could transcribe Torah scrolls. The MAJOR fight between the Samaritans and the Jews in the New Testament was the deliberately corrupted Torah Scrolls the Levites sold to the Samaritans concerning the use of the Temple. Jews didn't want them there and the Samaritans (also Jews of corrupted bloodlines) wanted to worship at the Temple. It's a backhanded throwback to the "Sin of Jeroboam, son of Nebat" where the northern 10 tribes set up another golden calf as a centerpiece of Judaism worship in Samaria. (There were some grumblings)

All of this is a long study in the Old Testament.

 

[GodsGrace]

Should i call you Mary, but GodsGrace is fine, because i can picture you like Mary sitting down beside Jesus and listening to what the Kingdom of GOD is like.

Hilarious in a good way because it happens in many households, Martha chose to cook the best meal for Jesus and His disciples. The preparation and cooking became challenging and tiresome for Martha, even to the point tormented why Mary is not helping me, and end up complaining to the Lord.
And in return the Lord coolly corrected Martha and commented Mary, naturally i felt sorry for Martha and disappointed with Mary, but Jesus spiritually is always 'just'.

Mary was more spiritual.
Martha was more practical.
One wanted to feed her spiritual part,
and one wanted to feed her physical part.

i believe Jesus is not all about food, for He's obedient to His FATHER and does HIS will 24/7, overwhelming right?

Well, in the case of Jesus it's not overwhelming because He was God (is God) and He did what He was supposed to do....
be the perfect lamb as in
Exodus 12:5
5 'Your lamb shall be an unblemished male a year old; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats.

This is because at the well with the Samaritan woman, disciples felt sorry that He must be hungry, went to the town to get Him a 'Kebab', figuratively speaking.
But He just answered, 'My food is to do My FATHER's will.' (It went completely silent..........) This reminds me the song, 'Imagine'.
When i was babes in Christ lamb, i taught when i meet Jesus, i want to talk and question, but when am a sheep, will i be 'dumbstruck' at His present?

I think I would be awe-struck at His presence even now after so many years!
I think there would still be so much I would ask and want to know.

Sorry to get side track there, let's get back to the FATHER's business, thank you.

Why did Jesus spoke of it 'twice', interesting, generally i had to come across passages few times until light bulb lights up.

Acceptable according to you, He's making a strong point and want that point to get through to the listeners, bravo!

That's one thing, yes He said, "If you have ears, listen and pay attention." (not the natural ears but the spiritual one after becoming born again)

Twice is not a repetition, but He's making two very string points, that, there are two stages of becoming born from above.

First stage, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be 'born again', he cannot 'see' the kingdom of GOD." (verse 3)

Second stage, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be 'born of water and of the Spirit', he cannot 'enter' into the Kingdom of GOD."

Do you see and perceive the amazing hidden secrets in the word of GOD?

You've made a very interesting point.

John 3:3 YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN.
John 3.5 UNLESS YOU ARE BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT.....

Accepting that we all could now be born again, or born from above as the Jewish language states,,,,
Maybe we must first be born from above.....chosen by God....
THEN
We must also be baptized in water....

and so we would be born from above (by God)
and also born of baptismal water.

I'd like @JohnDB to see this and comment.

You're right, your experience is different from mine and mine from yours, agreed.

Yes, when i was babes in Christ lamb it was much more easier, and now am a sheep it's getting harder to stand on my faith.

Why is it getting harder Fred?
It should be getting easier, no?

Am too full of confession and excuses, but the word of GOD(double edged sword) cuts through to the depths of one's very heart, and am without excuse...

Maybe you're just more aware of sinning.
This happens as we realize how holy God is and how lacking we are.
But it does not change our status.

Words like, 'You sins are forgiven sin no more, or something worst shall come upon you.'

Perhaps the man had sin.
Perhaps the sin caused him to become sick.
Jesus is saying that if he GOES BACK TO SINNING (willfully) something even worse than paralysis could happen.
Or Jesus could mean that his very soul is at stake and being lost is even worse than being sick.
It cannot be said for certain what Jesus meant.

'Be ye perfect as your FATHER in heaven is perfect.'

Jesus knew man could not be perfect.
Surely He meant something else.
Be perfect means to be complete.

I don't particularly like this site, but I like how they explain this:

In Matthew 5:48 Jesus continues setting the standard higher than we are wont to set it. The literal interpretation is likely what Jesus intended. We are called to be absolutely perfect, matching the perfection of our heavenly Father. Every aspect of our being should align with God’s ways, including our deepest thoughts. The Greek word used, teleios, conveys a sense of maturity, completeness, or attaining a goal. In this context, the goal is to meet God’s standard, not simply settle for human morality. A follower of Christ cannot take an attitude of “I’m good enough.”

source: What does it mean to be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48)? | GotQuestions.org

'Those who hear My words and does them, liken unto a wise builder who place his house on the rock, and compare to the one who does not.'

'Those who obey My commandments truly love Me, and the one obey not, love Me not.'

Many more and i can become tired and weary of my incompetent to sustain on that foundation.

The above verses are very good and I've posted them many times myself to those that feel that obedience to God is secondary, or some say it's not needed at all.

Jesus taught that we are to ACT on His teachings/words.
Once we're saved we are to obey Jesus' commandments.
To the best of our ability.
No one is perfect or sinless.

It's like a judge who's wise in every judgement of his, but in his personal life he's lawless and corrupt.

Shame on me, sorry to get emotional back there, am cool back now......., may the good GOD the FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ help us all.

Amen to that.
Our effort is ours...
Our trust is in Jesus.

Times are getting harder for our faith, 'Lawlessness shall increase and people will be going to and fro.'

They'll be lovers of themselves, violent, unpeaceable, haughty ect,

Jesus said pray to the FATHER that HE helps us escape tribulation, is not like He'll remove us from the tribulation but help us get trough.

i hope it was worthwhile for you and may GOD bless you in Jesus name, shalom!

Let's not follow the ways of the world.
God bless you too!

 

[GodsGrace]

Ciao, is this your perception in regards to verse 5, am bit taken back?

You mean that the water bag in the mother womb where the baby is, of that is the natural water birth Jesus is speaking about in verse 5?

Perhaps am wrong?

Based on the New Testament scripture in context, i perceive it the following way.

Baptism of natural water on earth, i go in and come out the water and have done it in 'faith'. (and not that anything magical transformation will happen to me)

In faith the water symbolize the ground, where am burying my old self-centered person and resurrect a new creature/person.

And in faith the Spirit symbolize a figure, now am a child of GOD, He's my Helper and Comforter who will descend and reside in me.

And the fire symbolize the tongue, as how the Apostles received on the day of Pentecost to proclaim the Gospel and make disciple of all nation.

Jesus the Master Himself was baptized in the river Jordan and when He came out of the water, the Holy Ghost in the form of a dove, descended on Him.

Aren't we suppose to 'imitate' our Master, who's disciples were also water baptizing others after that, till the book of Acts?

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

I'm not sure about John 3:5.
Sometimes I think it's referring to the water of baptism...
sometimes I like the idea that it's the water of birth, physical birth,

It helped me a lot to hear that it might be physical birth.
IOW,,,,man is born - that is one birth.
Then man should also be spritually born - that would be the second birth .... or the BORN AGAIN birth.

One physical
One spiritual.

But, yes, I agree with all you've stated above.

My problem is that they both make a lot of sense.
I do know this for sure,,,,we must be born of the spirit or we will not see God and we will not be complete.
To be complete we need our body, our soul AND our spirit part.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah....no kidding.
The sacrificial system was set up to "remind" God to not forget his promise to Abraham. It was not a "pay for play" type sin offerings.

It goes back to the various animals Abraham split to create the blood flow where God walked the blood path. (As reiterated in Hebrews)
God would see the blood and remember his Promise to Abraham and not forget due to their individual sin. So therefore they would be forgiven. However, the individual was not allowed to approach the altar...a priest was needed, outfitted and consecrated as a priest who had lived his life according to the Laws in Leviticus.

Nowadays,
We do not need a priestly class to teach us the Torah and scriptures. We also do not need sacrifices for a sin offering....nor do we need a priest to intercede for us for our sins.

Jesus is not only our High Priest (atonement day) but also we can tell and teach each other the scriptures where only Levites could transcribe Torah scrolls. The MAJOR fight between the Samaritans and the Jews in the New Testament was the deliberately corrupted Torah Scrolls the Levites sold to the Samaritans concerning the use of the Temple. Jews didn't want them there and the Samaritans (also Jews of corrupted bloodlines) wanted to worship at the Temple. It's a backhanded throwback to the "Sin of Jeroboam, son of Nebat" where the northern 10 tribes set up another golden calf as a centerpiece of Judaism worship in Samaria. (There were some grumblings)

All of this is a long study in the Old Testament.

I've always felt that I know very little of the OT.
It would require much more study than I'm able to handle,
and I really admire those that know so much about it.
Like you !


(You know, the Catholic priest is very much like the OT priests. If they teach that we are all priests, as it's meant, there would be no further need of THEM!)