What were the disciples asking when they inquired about “what will be the sign of your coming”?
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Ive done a study on it, Daniel 7 leads me to Jesus and his transfiguration on the mountain, which will lead a person to Revelation, chapter 3 or 4.
I hate that I deleted this study when I relapsed but I still remember very vividly. And its amazing when people do that type of work for themselves, by studying.
Thompson Chain Reference Bible is something I recommend, maybe include a NASB cross-reference bible.
The more juice you squeeze out the better, the more further of a mining venture a person goes down diamonds start showing up.
Jesus did save the saints when He came, He saved us all spiritually
Also all of the Christians did heed Jesus warning in the Olivet Discourse and left Jerusalem just before it was destroyed.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
You think that John 1 is "junst a bunch of rhetoric?" What you've done is place yourself squarely *outside of* orthodox Christianity. And you think I then care about your problems with my statements?
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I was speaking of the Messianic expection among the Jewish People. After all, we were discussing something Jesus said in his Olivet Discourse. And that Discourse was given to the Jewish People, specifically to his Disciples, at a time before there was an International Church.
Why do you reference Jesus' call to "flee Jerusalem" when that was not the question? The question concerned the "sign of Jesus' Coming." I do agree, however, that the expectation Jesus' Disciples had is the same the Church has today. It is an expansion upon the Jewish Hope, as I call it--not different but "expanded."
Thanks for your input, Marty. Sorry about my bluntness! I do want you to share your convictions without fear of hostility or division. In my book you can do no wrong! ;)
I dont. I believe Jesus is God, once he overcame all things, saved the bride, and sat down on the throne with his Father. (LORD God Almighty.) With Yahavah having everything handed back to him, because Yeshua was said to give all things back to him, after overcoming all things in which God is all in all.
I just dont believe in the whole preexistance thing, that is rhetorical, and that is held by you personally which is fine I just dont agree with it.
I believe the Word was the Word, until it was sent and then born of Mary, and named Jesus.
But if my statements do not matter, that is cool too. They should not. People should do a study themselves without people saying you must believe this way otherwise you are not a Christian.
I believe all the Bride of Christ was raptured in that day in age. Faithfully. I believe they seen him, just as it was promised for him to come, and every eye of the faithful did see him.
I think its cool we are still part of the family, and adopted and co-heirs with Christ, @Marty fox.
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Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Perhaps you didn't realize that Jesus' preexistence as the Word is both in John 1 and the overwhelming consensus of Christian belief from the Early Church all the way down through history until today? Or, you've simply chosen to isolate yourself and be your own guide? Or, perhaps you're part of some Christian cult? I don't know, but by all historical standards I *should* ignore you in such matters.
So you're a Full Preterist?
Your eschatology needs some serious tweaking, in my opinion. But as imperfect as people are, I think you need to exercise a degree of trust. You can no more depend on yourself than you can trust completely in others.
How was all of the bride raptured when the saints like John were still on the earth afterwards? How was left to spread the message?
Don't know what you mean. It looks like manuscripts were left, to be gathered and found. Like dead sea scrolls.
Yahavah is funny. He lets us all pick and decide and choose for ourselves. Because at the end of the day, your own personal relationship with Yahavah is of course between you and him.
It shouldn't matter if I differ with you.
I don't know everything they believe, but I do believe Jesus was not a liar. And I believe that Yeshua did come as promised, because if he did not he is a liar, the apostles are also liars.
I don't mind being corrected* I am re-responding to you cause I know I am a butt-head for the most part.
The thing, when it comes to be corrected by people, on matters which Yahavah himself has not sought to correct me on I do not believe I have to change my mind on those certain things.
Cause I don't mind being corrected, I just don't like trying to be corrected by people who do not care anyway.
They have a CONCERN, but that concern of me believing these things, shouldn't be their concern, but they worry.
Oh not this man needs corrected, and he needs to be chastened by the group, as though I can't be chastened by Yahavah himself.
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Can you answer me this? Why hasn't Yahavah who is love corrected me in suggesting that what I believe is wrong? Cause all I ever hear is human beings telling me that I am.
Is he not working in my life?
Has be abandon me and I am not really even near Yahavah at all?
Am I in the absence of Yahavah? Meaning in the darkness.
No worries, Randy LOL thanks.
Yes, the discourse was given before an international church, but the international church was in existence in 70AD. The problem with Israel is that they didn't realize that the Messiah was also their God He was the one who would save them that's a big reason that they didn't recognize Jesus or what the true saving was.
My mention of fleeing Jerusalem was in reference to the post that I replied too. Jesus warned the church in Jerusalem and they did flee before the destruction of the city. I believe that the sign of His coming was the Roman army surrounding the city its the abomination that causes desolation.
Matthew 24
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Luke 21
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written
The church left the city right before the destruction of the city and John was still alive after 70AD so how could the church be raptured.
Every eye shall see him (faithful), is what Revelation states. They would have seen him, and taken. That is my conclusion to your question.
@Marty fox, I don't believe John was alive after 70Ad. I believe he was taken.
A question that comes up is why didn't he write about the destruction of the temple if he was alive passed it.
A question that comes up is why didn't he write about the destruction of the temple if he was alive passed it.
Sorry but how does that explain John being alive after 70AD? It also says every eye thus that would include nonbelievers.
Could it also mean that people will see Him mean that they would know that Jesus was God because what He said would happen happened when He said it would happen?
Matthew 26:64
64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”[e]
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66 What do you think?”
“He is worthy of death,” they answered.
They didn't literally see Him from then on sitting on the right hand of the Father, what Jesus was saying is that they would know that Jesus was God
He was recorded dying in his 90's I also believe that Revelation was written before 70AD
Let me ask you, how would faithless people see him?
I also do not believe John was alive passed 70ad. That is a personal choice on my part.
I don't believe that he lived past 70Ad.
@Marty fox
Who would see him? Faithful people whom were awaiting him, typically people use the verse "every eye shall see him" as those unbelievers would too.
I based these concerning that text "every eye shall see him" would be faithful people who eagerly awaited.
Not some universal claiming as some say.
I also agree that Revelation was written just about 2 - 1 years before the destruction.
Who would see him? Faithful people whom were awaiting him, typically people use the verse "every eye shall see him" as those unbelievers would too.
I based these concerning that text "every eye shall see him" would be faithful people who eagerly awaited.
Not some universal claiming as some say.
I also agree that Revelation was written just about 2 - 1 years before the destruction.
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Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Absolutely we agree that the AoD was the Roman Army 66-70 AD. I don't know why futurists want "fulfilled prophecies" to be future? I think it's part of the hysteria that comes with trying to predict things?
I don't mean to be mean to them but nothing could be more explicit in this Discourse than Jesus' prediction that Jerusalem and the Temple would fall in "this generation." That would be *Jesus' generation,* which could only be the 70 AD event.
Although I think this Discourse was delivered strictly to Jewish Disciples of Christ I know Jesus intended the message to be heard by the International Church later. As I see it, the lessons for Jesus' Disciples is the same lessons we can learn from today, which is that even in so-called "Christian nations" we cannot trust that our nation is truly or fully Christian.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Cain asked, "Am I my brother's keeper?" The answer should've been, 'Yes!" If we know something that someone lacks knowledge of and has need of correction, we should offer sound advice. A wise man listens to all respectable advisers.
Nobody's calling you a "butt-head." We can all wear that label at times! ;)
I don't either. If they don't care you can tell.
Nothing is easy. I've suffered some serious mistakes even as I was serving God to the best of my ability. When I ask "Why" I often get an answer. But it is complicated.
God's word is harder than a diamond. We sometimes get knicked because even in our sincerity we butt up against God's word. God doesn't give--we must.
Sometimes we are just victims of a sinful environment. People are not particularly helpful by nature... you think?
But there are also times when God exercises His rights to put upon His children some pretty awful tests, even as He provides a means to get through them. It doesn't seem fair, but we're not God. What is for His glory is a matter for the designer of our personal history.
God cares, and despite what He lets you go through you will come out proud and happy if you just keep walking with Him.
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