Will Christ utter new words in a Premil millennium?

[Spiritual Israelite]

David, there is a certain sense in which our will is never free. As Paul says in Romans 6, we all are, at any given time, either slaves to unrighteousness or slaves to righteousness. We are all naturally the former, but if and when we are born again of the Spirit, then we become the latter. What Jesus tells certain groups of Jews in John 6, 8, and 10 is of great relevance here.

But from a purely human, experiential standpoint, our will is always free.

Of Christians, those born again of the Spirit, Paul tells the Christians in Philippi ~ and us by extension ~ to "work out (their/our) own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in (us), both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12-13). We do the willing and working, and freely, but it is because God is at work in us so that we will do so.

That's not what Paul is saying there. You (not Paul) saying that God ensures "that we will do so" (work out our salvation) makes Paul's claim that we need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling completely meaningless. If God ensure that we will do so, then there's nothing that we need to work out. God works it all out Himself in that case.

You won't admit it, but you put ALL of the responsibility for one's salvation on God alone. But, Paul doesn't give that impression at all. God works in us so that we can work out our own salvation, but we are made responsible by God to cooperate with Him and submit to Him and that is each person's free will choice to make as to whether or not to do that.

It can't both be true that we play a part in working out our own salvation with fear and trembling while God ensures that we do so. In that case, you make God our Programmer and we are then just His robots doing what God programs us to do. It would never be said that we are responsible to work out our own salvation in that case. That is just not the impression Paul gives at all. Instead, he gives the impression that we have to work out our own salvation, but we can only do that with God's help. But, God doesn't do it for us. He doesn't force us to obey Him. We have to cooperate with Him and willingly submit to Him and work with Him. Your doctrine removes all responsibility from man as it relates to salvation, but scripture does not teach that. Salvation is synergistic and not monergistic.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ok, PinSeeker, I’m just looking for your opinion on this not a debate, I personally think the Canon is complete, but what about if some documents or scrolls were discovered?

In 1 Corinthians 5:9 Paul says “I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators” that epistle is what some people call zero Corinthians, it’s the epistle before 1 Corinthians.

If that epistle was found, authenticated, and determined to be written by Paul I would think it should be added to the Canon. Daniel 12:4 does say knowledge will increase and someone could use that as an argument for why the Canon is not yet complete.

I'm not going to try to debate about what you're saying here, but I'm just going to ask you a question. Do you think the Canon that we currently have is sufficient for all of our needs? Or do you think there could be something missing that could be affecting our lives in some way because of not having what is missing?

 

[Davidpt]

David, there is a certain sense in which our will is never free. As Paul says in Romans 6, we all are, at any given time, either slaves to unrighteousness or slaves to righteousness. We are all naturally the former, but if and when we are born again of the Spirit, then we become the latter. What Jesus tells certain groups of Jews in John 6, 8, and 10 is of great relevance here.

But from a purely human, experiential standpoint, our will is always free.

Of Christians, those born again of the Spirit, Paul tells the Christians in Philippi ~ and us by extension ~ to "work out (their/our) own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in (us), both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12-13). We do the willing and working, and freely, but it is because God is at work in us so that we will do so. This is not saying that He "manipulates our will," but that he sanctifies our hearts by the ongoing work of His Spirit, and because of this our will is ~ or becomes more and more in this life ~ to please Him and do His will.

The issue is not really the will, David, it is autonomy. Neither you nor I ~ nor any other human being, past, present or future ~ is autonomous... we are not self-existing "free agents." Only God is.

Grace and peace to you.

This free will debate aside. Why not submit some compelling arguments that might convince me that Zechariah 14:16-19 can be meaning before Zechariah 14:12 rather than after? After all, if verses 16-19 can be meaning before verse 12 rather than after, I would then no longer have a valid reason to apply those verses to a future millennium if the here and now explain those verses instead.

But if I am right that verses 16-19 must follow verse 12, obviously then, for example, they shall go up from year to year, that this can't be fulfilled in a single day. Therefore, more days are required to fulfill this after verse 12 is fulfilled first. How many more days are required? An infinite amount of days or a finite amount of days? Keeping in mind that this has to be factored in---that whoever will not come up, upon them shall be no rain. Should we apply that to infinity or should we apply that to a finite amount of days?

 

[grafted branch]

I'm not going to try to debate about what you're saying here, but I'm just going to ask you a question. Do you think the Canon that we currently have is sufficient for all of our needs? Or do you think there could be something missing that could be affecting our lives in some way because of not having what is missing?

Well, was the Old Testament sufficient for all the needs of those who lived prior to Jesus being on earth? Did the church at Corinth really need Paul’s zero epistle?

Here’s the thing, claiming our Canon is complete down to every last word and punctuation mark is a difficult position to defend. Another person, outside of this forum, is challenging me about sola scriptoria and the Bible alone and in its entirety, which is why I’m asking about this.

Jesus Himself quoted from both the Septuagint and the proto-Masoretic Hebrew and yet both are not word for word the same. The Septuagint (LXX) adds another 1,300 years or so to the Bible timeline, meaning it has the earth being an extra 1,300 years or so older than what our Masoretic based KJV has, and yet Jesus clearly used the LXX more so than He did the Masoretic. Where Jesus quoted the LXX, it becomes part of the Canon and the Masoretic which wasn’t quoted is part of the Canon also because someone made that decision way back when. That means there are now two different versions of the same verse and they are both part of the Canon.

For example in Mark 7:6-7 Jesus quotes Isaiah 29:13(LXX).



Mark 7:6-7(KJV)6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Isaiah 29:13(KJV) Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Isaiah 29:13 (LXX) And the Lord has said, This people draw nigh to me with their mouth, and they honour me with their lips, but their heart is far from me: but in vain do they worship me, teaching the commandments and doctrines of men.



The meaning hasn’t really changed but different words are used between the LXX and KJV in Isaiah 29:13. So, looking at your question, I have to ask, was it necessary to have two different versions of Isaiah 29:13? Was there some insufficiency that would’ve affected our lives if both versions hadn’t been canonized?

Personally, I don’t think so but if you think our current Canon is absolutely accurate then you should be able to come up with an answer as to why the two versions were necessary when they decided to make them both part of the Canon.

 

[ewq1938]

I am sticking to the scriptures.

Leviticus 19:11 (NIV) Do not steal. Do not lie. Do not deceive one another.

We can deceive one another, that is a Biblical fact. You are the one that seems to be straying from the scriptures by thinking that once Satan is bound we won’t be able to deceive one another.

Your strawman is weak. The scriptures only forbid satan from deceiving the nations. It does not forbid anyone else from deceiving someone else.

 

[grafted branch]

Your strawman is weak. The scriptures only forbid satan from deceiving the nations. It does not forbid anyone else from deceiving someone else.

Great, it looks like we are in agreement. There will be deception occurring during the millennium, but there won’t be any deception from Satan.

Now all we need to do is figure out how Satan deceives the nations (<1484> ethnos) and maybe we can at least agree on what a millennial economy looks like when Satan doesn’t deceive the ethnos.

 

[PinSeeker]

Ok, PinSeeker, I’m just looking for your opinion on this not a debate, I personally think the Canon is complete, but what about if some documents or scrolls were discovered?

In 1 Corinthians 5:9 Paul says “I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators” that epistle is what some people call zero Corinthians, it’s the epistle before 1 Corinthians.

If that epistle was found, authenticated, and determined to be written by Paul I would think it should be added to the Canon. Daniel 12:4 does say knowledge will increase and someone could use that as an argument for why the Canon is not yet complete.

The Holy Spirit not only inspired the Word of God in certain men across the centuries two millennia ago, He has maintained its integrity ever since then. Yes, the Canon is complete. t is what it is.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

And here we go again...

That's not what Paul is saying there.

It is. I respect your opinion, but it is.

You (not Paul) saying that God ensures "that we will do so" (work out our salvation) makes Paul's claim that we need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling completely meaningless. If God ensure that we will do so, then there's nothing that we need to work out. God works it all out Himself in that case.

No, because God is at work in us ~ because we have His Spirit leading us ~ we will work out our own salvation and can be confident in doing so. The process of sanctification will look different in each one of us, because we are individuals, of course, but the outcome ~ our salvation ~ will be the same. "He Who began a good work in (us) will bring it to completion at the day of Christ." as Paul said just a few sentences before Philippians 2:12-13, in Philippians 1:6.

You won't admit it, but you put ALL of the responsibility for one's salvation on God alone.

The primary initiative is His, according to His will. If not for His gracious choice... and giving us new birth by His Spirit... we would have remained children of the devil and only desiring to do his will... slaves to unrighteousness. But, having been chosen by God before the foundation of the world, and at the appointed time given new birth by God through the work of His Spirit, we are since then in Christ and thus His sons, desiring to do His will... slaves to righteousness. Yet again, "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy" (Romans 9:16). Paul does not deny or shortchange man's free will or responsibility in any way ~ and so neither does any good Calvinist <smile> ~ but only says there that one's salvation does not depend on it. But yes, once that happens, we have great responsibility... to obey, trust, follow, serve, and of course love Him. And we do so freely (although not perfectly, of course), because we are in Christ, sons of God, slaves to righteousness. God created... re-created, actually... us for this purpose... we are called by God to do these things. And like everyone else, will be judged according to what we have done.

So, again, God began a good work in us and will bring it to completion at the day of Christ, and therefore we can work out our own salvation with fear and trembling ~ with solemn reverence for, confidence in, and in praise of God and His Spirit (and Jesus of course). As you know, regarding how anyone can be saved, with man this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible... and as Paul goes on to say in Philippians 4:13... well, he says it of himself, but it is true for all of us who are in Christ, "(we) can do all things through Him Who strengthens (us)."

In closing, a rhetorical question: If the responsibility for one's salvation is divided between God and the one, then shouldn't one praise and worship in... some proportion... both God and himself/herself for his/her salvation? <smile>

Well...

It can't both be true that we play a part in working out our own salvation with fear and trembling while God ensures that we do so.

It can, and it does. Because of God's work in our hearts, we respond positively ~ because of this new spirit we have... because we have the Holy Spirit. Once we are born again, we are being made more and more like Jesus.

In that case, you make God our Programmer and we are then just His robots doing what God programs us to do. It would never be said that we are responsible to work out our own salvation in that case. That is just not the impression Paul gives at all. Instead, he gives the impression that we have to work out our own salvation, but we can only do that with God's help. But, God doesn't do it for us. He doesn't force us to obey Him. We have to cooperate with Him and willingly submit to Him and work with Him. Your doctrine removes all responsibility from man as it relates to salvation, but scripture does not teach that. Salvation is synergistic and not monergistic.

Pish. Again, If the responsibility for one's salvation is divided between God and the one, then shouldn't one praise and worship both God and himself/herself for his/her salvation? <smile> Surely you see the absurdity in this question...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ewq1938]

Great, it looks like we are in agreement. There will be deception occurring during the millennium,

The bible doesn't state that.

but there won’t be any deception from Satan.

It does state that.

Now all we need to do is figure out how Satan deceives the nations (<1484> ethnos) and maybe we can at least agree on what a millennial economy looks like when Satan doesn’t deceive the ethnos.

In Rev 20 he deceives them into going to Jerusalem in a failed war where they all die.

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 

[PinSeeker]

The scriptures only forbid satan from deceiving the nations.

He is bound ~ absolutely restricted ~ from being able to deceive the Gentiles as a whole. Yet again, every Gentile Christian is irrefutable evidence of Satan's absolute inability to keep the Gospel from reaching to the ends of the earth. This became the case two millennia ago... thus Christ's mandate after His resurrection and before His ascension to "(g)o therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that (He has) commanded (us)" (Matthew 28:19:20) and by the power of His Spirit to "be (His) witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth" (Acts 1:8).

But this does not mean that Satan has no ability to exert influence in the world and thus to... mislead, by a plethora of means... individuals; he is, as Peter says, "(prowling) around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour" (1 Peter 5:8). Peter is here referring directly to Ezekiel 19, by the way...

You can think of it in the same manner as a criminal in a maximum-security prison. As such, he/she is... well, imprisoned, of course, and absolutely unable to commit any crime, but even so is still able to exert influence among those on the outside...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[grafted branch]

The bible doesn't state that.

Ok, so are you admitting you have no idea what’s going to happen in the millennium?

You seem to be in agreement that a person can deceive another person, but since the Bible doesn’t explicitly say they will be deceiving one another in the millennium, apparently, you’re not going to admit it and just say “The bible doesn't state that”.

Since the Bible doesn’t say there is a gap in between Daniel’s week 69 and 70, would you use your same methodology on this? Or do you cherry pick what scriptures you do that with?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And here we go again...

If you're going to promote Calvinism here, then I'm going to refute it. Every time. This is a public forum, so if you can talk about this topic here, so can I.

No, because God is at work in us ~ because we have His Spirit leading us ~ we will work out our own salvation and can be confident in doing so.

You do not believe there is anything we need to work out ourselves as it relates to salvation. Why don't you just admit that? In your view it's God who does EVERYTHING in relation to salvation. Why do you try to hide that by acting as if we have any responsibility at all in the matter when you know you don't believe that?

The primary initiative is His, according to His will. If not for His gracious choice... and giving us new birth by His Spirit... we would have remained children of the devil and only desiring to do his will... slaves to unrighteousness.

This isn't taught anywhere in scripture. This is all just your own words.

But, having been chosen by God before the foundation of the world, and at the appointed time given new birth by God through the work of His Spirit, we are since then in Christ and thus His sons, desiring to do His will... slaves to righteousness.

If everything is up to God, as you believe, then why wouldn't He just make us slaves to righteousness from birth? What is the point of us supposedly being born totally depraved and slaves to sin if we are eventually going to be slaves to righteousness?

Yet again, "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy" (Romans 9:16).

Why do you make doctrine out of that verse while ignoring Romans 11:30-32 which says that God wants to have mercy on all people? Man didn't decide that God should want to have mercy on all people. God decided that. Because God is love (1 John 4:8) and it would make no sense that He would only want to have mercy on some and not the rest.

Scripture teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2) and that God wants all people to repent (Ezekiel 33:11, 2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30-31) and to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6). Calvinism contradicts all of that.

Paul does not deny or shortchange man's free will or responsibility in any way ~ and so neither does any good Calvinist <smile>

LOL. I don't know who you think you're fooling with this. When it comes to salvation, Calvinism teaches that man has no responsibility, in and of himself. Can you not be honest enough to admit that?

~ but only says there that one's salvation does not depend on it. But yes, once that happens, we have great responsibility... to obey, trust, follow, serve, and of course love Him.

And what if we don't? Of course, in your doctrine that isn't possible for the elect because God makes it so that we "obey, trust, follow, serve, and of course love Him". So, in Calvinism it's God's responsibility to make sure we do what He wants us to do and we have no responsibility in and of ourselves relating to that at all.

And we do so freely (although not perfectly, of course), because we are in Christ, sons of God, slaves to righteousness. God created... re-created, actually... us for this purpose... we are called by God to do these things. And like everyone else, will be judged according to what we have done.

What does that mean to you exactly to be judged according to what we have done? Is that based on choices that we make in and of ourselves? Why else would we be judged if it's not based on that?

So, again, God began a good work in us and will bring it to completion at the day of Christ, and therefore we can work out our own salvation with fear and trembling ~ with solemn reverence for, confidence in, and in praise of God and His Spirit (and Jesus of course).

You believe that it is God who works out our salvation and we cannot have any part, in an of ourselves, to work out our own salvation. Why do you act as if you believe otherwise?

As you know, regarding how anyone can be saved, with man this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible... and as Paul goes on to say in Philippians 4:13... well, he says it of himself, but it is true for all of us who are in Christ, "(we) can do all things through Him Who strengthens (us)."

In closing, a rhetorical question: If the responsibility for one's salvation is divided between God and the one, then shouldn't one praise and worship in... some proportion... both God and himself/herself for his/her salvation? <smile>

No, not at all. Look at the following parable and assume, for the sake of argument (looking at things from my non-Calvinist perspective), that both the Pharisee and tax collector have free will in the sense that God leaves the choice up to them to decide whether or not to humble themselves and repent of their sins while trusting in Him for their salvation rather than themselves.

Luke 18:9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ 13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ 14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

The Pharisee chose to exalt himself and believed that he would be justified before God by his own supposed righteousness. He thought he was better than other people like the tax collector while not understanding that he was a sinner like everyone else. The tax collector, meanwhile, chose to humble himself while acknowledging that he was a sinner and needed God's mercy.

In this scenario, do you think the tax collector would be praising and worshiping himself for being justified before God despite having just humbled himself and acknowledging that he is a sinner and is not worthy of praise and worship? Of course not. So, the idea that if salvation is partly the responsibility of man means that man would then have a reason to praise and worship himself is false. This parable proves that. We are not responsible for proving we are worthy to be saved, we are responsible to acknowledge that we are lost sinners who are not worthy and are in need of God's mercy.

It can, and it does. Because of God's work in our hearts, we respond positively ~ because of this new spirit we have... because we have the Holy Spirit. Once we are born again, we are being made more and more like Jesus.

But, it is not automatic that one who has been born again ends up being made more and more like Jesus. You think we have no choice in the matter despite Paul warning believers to not grieve the Holy Spirit and to not quench the Holy Spirit. If what you believed was true, it would not be possible for us to grieve and quench the Holy Spirit.

Pish. Again, If the responsibility for one's salvation is divided between God and the one, then shouldn't one praise and worship both God and himself/herself for his/her salvation? <smile>

Again, no. That is something you made up in your imagination. Scripture says we are saved by grace through faith and not by works of righteousness. You have decided that faith is a work of righteousness that, if it was something we do, then it would be cause for us to boast and praise and worship ourselves. But, faith and works are not the same. They are contrasted with each other in passages like Ephesians 2:8-10 and James 2.

Surely you see the absurdity in this question...

Yes, I do. It's absurd for you to assume that if we have responsibility in salvation that it means we would then be able to praise and worship ourselves for our own salvation. That shows a lack of understanding of what we are held responsible to do by God, which is exactly the opposite of praising and worshiping ourselves.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This free will debate aside. Why not submit some compelling arguments that might convince me that Zechariah 14:16-19 can be meaning before Zechariah 14:12 rather than after? After all, if verses 16-19 can be meaning before verse 12 rather than after, I would then no longer have a valid reason to apply those verses to a future millennium if the here and now explain those verses instead.

But if I am right that verses 16-19 must follow verse 12, obviously then, for example, they shall go up from year to year, that this can't be fulfilled in a single day. Therefore, more days are required to fulfill this after verse 12 is fulfilled first. How many more days are required? An infinite amount of days or a finite amount of days? Keeping in mind that this has to be factored in---that whoever will not come up, upon them shall be no rain. Should we apply that to infinity or should we apply that to a finite amount of days?

It seems that you take Zechariah 14:12 literally, right? Do you take verse 13 literally as well?

Zechariah 14:12 This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. 13 On that day people will be stricken by the Lord with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another.

If you take both verses 12 and 13 literally, then explain how people could be stricken by the Lord with great panic and then attack one another after they have already been burned alive where they are standing? That would make no sense, so it's not possible that both verses can be taken literally since that would cause the verses to contradict each other.

It's clear that verses 16-19 follow verse 12 chronologically, but I'm not sure why that would support Premillennialism. Do you believe verses 16-19 are talking about people literally being required to go to Jerusalem to worship God and keep the feast of tabernacles or else be punished with no rain? If so, why would God, almost 2,000 years ago, have made it so that people no longer had to go to Jerusalem to worship Him and instead required them to worship Him in spirit and in truth wherever they are (John 4:19-24) only to make people again have to go to Jerusalem to worship Him in the future? Do you think people will no longer be required to worship Him in spirit and in truth during the supposed future thousand years? If so, why? If not, then why would anyone need to go to Jerusalem to worship Him?

Zechariah 14 is an undeniably difficult passage of scripture to interpret. Why do you believe in a doctrine that is based on difficult and highly debatable passages of scripture rather than clear, straightforward passages?

 

[ewq1938]

Ok, so are you admitting you have no idea what’s going to happen in the millennium?

No, I said, "he bible doesn't state that." Why make statements when there is no biblical support?

You seem to be in agreement that a person can deceive another person, but since the Bible doesn’t explicitly say they will be deceiving one another in the millennium, apparently, you’re not going to admit it and just say “The bible doesn't state that”.

Admit an assumption of yours? Why would I do that. Your assumption has zero support.

Since the Bible doesn’t say there is a gap in between Daniel’s week 69 and 70, would you use your same methodology on this? Or do you cherry pick what scriptures you do that with?

That's not an equal comparison, nor do care about Daniel's weeks.

 

[PinSeeker]

If you're going to promote Calvinism here, then I'm going to refute it. Every time.

Fair enough; I... don't care. But I'm not; Calvinism Schmalvinism. <smile> God said what He meant and meant what He said.

At the outset here, it seems worth saying that I see from time to time in your responses to others that you take great umbrage when they misrepresent (either purposely or otherwise) your beliefs and views... <smile>

You do not believe there is anything we need to work out ourselves as it relates to salvation.

Yes, I certainly do. The... chasm, I guess... between you and me on this is what it means to "work out our salvation."

In your view it's God who does EVERYTHING in relation to salvation.

Certainly not.

Why do you make doctrine out of that verse ("it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy" Romans 9:16) while ignoring Romans 11:30-32 which says that God wants to have mercy on all people?

Certainly, I ignore nothing in God's Word. Nor should you. I have acknowledged many times that God wants to have mercy on all people," and will continue to do so. But... He doesn't... <> ...Paul is sure to quote Moses in Romans 9:15, quoting from Moses in Exodus 33, who quotes God Himself as saying, "I will have mercy upon whom I have mercy, compassion upon whom I will have compassion" and then bangs home the point in verse 18 that God "has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills."

...it would make no sense that He would only want to have mercy on some and not the rest.

Well, you can talk to Moses and Paul about that when you... cross the Jordan to glory, I guess... <smile>

Scripture teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2) and that God wants all people to repent (Ezekiel 33:11, 2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30-31) and to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6).

Right; this has been discussed many, many times. Yes, there is a sense in which Jesus's atonement was unlimited... that it was sufficient to accomplish the redemption of all... and for God to have mercy on all. But still... Paul again... God "has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills" (Romans 9:18).

Calvinism contradicts all of that.

Absolutely not; see above.

...Calvinism teaches that man has no responsibility, in and of himself.

Absolutely, unequivocally not.

Can you not be honest enough to admit that?

For me to do that would be... dishonest.

And what if we don't (obey, trust, follow, serve, and of course love Him)?

The question is moot; if God has had this mercy and compassion on us, we will, and this is because (as God says through Ezekiel, 11:19-20; 36:25-27), God "sprinkles clean water on us, and we are then clean from all our uncleannesses, and from all our idols. He gives us a new heart, and a new spirit He puts within us. He removes the heart of stone from our flesh and gives us a heart of flesh. He puts His Spirit within us and causes us to walk in His statutes and be careful to obey His rules." We freely do these things... even love Him... because He does this; otherwise we would not. As John says in 1 John 4:19 of those born again of the Spirit, "We love because He first loved us." It's not that He "makes us do stuff," but that, having this new spirit in us, we then freely do these things.

Of course, in your doctrine that isn't possible for the elect because God makes it so that we "obey, trust, follow, serve, and of course love Him".

Ah well, possible, certainly, but impossible in this life to do it perfectly. But, as you know, the Spirit helps us in our weakness (Romans 8:26), and His strength is made perfect in our weakness (2 Corinthians 12:9).

So, in Calvinism it's God's responsibility to make sure we do what He wants us to do and we have no responsibility in and of ourselves relating to that at all.

Pish. We are called by the mercies of God, to present our bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is our spiritual worship (Romans 12:9).

What does that mean to you exactly to be judged according to what we have done?

Read Matthew 25:31-46.

You believe that it is God who works out our salvation and we cannot have any part, in an of ourselves, to work out our own salvation...

Absolutely not; that would be contradictory to what Paul says in Philippians 2:12-13, not understanding of what he says there, that, as I cited above, his exhortation to us to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." God, by giving us this new spirit, even His Holy Spirit, enables us to will and work ~ we in fact do the willing and working ~ for God's good pleasure. And this is how we work out... and even participate in... our salvation. But again, we do these things because we have this new spirit that God gave us.

We are not responsible for proving we are worthy to be saved...

Right; none of us is worthy.

...we are responsible to acknowledge that we are lost sinners who are not worthy and are in need of God's mercy.

Absolutely agree. But we will not acknowledge this without having first received this new spirit... and the Holy Spirit. This is God's mercy. As Jesus Himself says in John 3 to Nicodemus, "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). And what man does not see, he will not desire. He will remain of his father the devil, only desiring to do his will, and not of the Father God and thus not desirous of doing His will: "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here... Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires... If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God." (John 8:42-47)

But, it is not automatic that one who has been born again ends up being made more and more like Jesus.

Hmmm, "automatic." Not sure what you mean by that, but as Paul says:

"...those whom (God) foreknew (God) also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom (God) predestined (God) also called, and those whom (God) called (God) also justified, and those whom (God) justified (God) also glorified" (Romans 8:).​

​

"(God) chose us in (Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will" (Ephesians 1:4-5).​

You think we have no choice in the matter...

We all have choices to make, as I said. But again, regarding our being members of God's elect, "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy" (Romans 9:16)

Scripture says we are saved by grace through faith and not by works of righteousness.

Absolutely. But grace, Spiritual Israelite, is unmerited favor. Our works of righteousness, even belief, is the direct result of God's grace... God gives us this favor not based on anything we have done, even our belief.

You have decided that faith is a work of righteousness...

Absolutely not. But there are folks who make it out to be that. Faith, the faith that we have, is a work of God ~ His assurance, conviction by the Holy Spirit (He is the One Who convicts). This is the very definition of faith, given in Hebrews 11:1.

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

Finishing:

It's absurd for you to assume that if we have responsibility in salvation that it means we would then be able to praise and worship ourselves for our own salvation.

I assume no such thing; you either miss or twist the point of what I said. Again, I asked... and notice the little smile after... "if the responsibility for one's salvation is divided between God and the one, then shouldn't one praise and worship both God and himself/herself for his/her salvation? <smile>" The point is that the initial responsibility for our salvation ~ what it depends on ~ is not divided between God and man at all, but only belongs to God. So of course we shouldn't... we can't... give praise and worship to both God and ourselves for our salvation.

However... <smile> ...in thinking God's giving us saving mercy/grace depends first on our belief in effect is to insinuate to some degree, however inadvertent it may be, that are deserving of some of this praise and worship for our salvation. In addition to making faith out to be by something other than God's grace and thus a work of man. Arminian believers certainly don't mean to do this, but they do.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You say you don’t make assumptions but when one person says we are currently in the millennium and another person says it’s still future, someone has to be assuming. The Bible doesn’t explicitly say what date the millennium starts, so we all have to make assumptions on how we interpret verses.

I get it that since you put the millennium as still future you are going to interpret some verses literally while others are going to interpret those same verses spiritually, figuratively, or allegorically. I think everyone has to interpret some verses literally and others non-literally but unless you can give a ridged set of rules by which we can always determine what is literal or not, we have to make assumptions.

I don’t know about you personally but there are areas where many Premils assume. For example they tend to put a gap in between Daniel’s week 69 and week 70, that’s an assumption that supports a future millennium. The full 70 weeks without an assumed gap puts the start of the millennium just after the cross.

Also, many Premils assume that national Israel will remain a nation before God forever. They tend to quote Jeremiah 31:35-36 but that’s another assumption.

Well you can make all the assumptions you wish. but without a solid foundation you can never know howe accurate your assumptions are.

I follow this rule for understanding Scripture:

“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”

You have to stand before god and decide what you are convinced is the way we should understand teh bible and go from there. Otherwise you will be in a circutious route always bouncing between how people try to understand the bible and then make bunches of assumptions which you will not be able to prove with near 100% certainty.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Fair enough; I... don't care. But I'm not; Calvinism Schmalvinism. <smile> God said what He meant and meant what He said.

At the outset here, it seems worth saying that I see from time to time in your responses to others that you take great umbrage when they misrepresent (either purposely or otherwise) your beliefs and views... <smile>

You are denying that you are a Calvinist? I don't recall you ever denying that before. I've called you that several times and you've never objected to it before. It seems like you readily accepted that label before. Did something change? If so, how does your view differ from the typical Calvinist view?

Yes, I certainly do. The... chasm, I guess... between you and me on this is what it means to "work out our salvation."

It seems in your case that it has nothing to do with someone working anything out in and of themselves as it relates to salvation which makes that statement very strange. I don't know why Paul would tell people to work out their own salvation if it was true that salvation was entirely God's choice and not up to man's choice made by his own volition at all, as you believe.

Certainly, I ignore nothing in God's Word. Nor should you. I have acknowledged many times that God wants to have mercy on all people," and will continue to do so. But... He doesn't.

Right. And why is that? In order for Him to genuinely want to have mercy on all people it would make no sense whatsoever for Him to do something so that it was not even possible for Him to have mercy on all people, but that is what you believe. You think He chose to only have mercy on some while not having mercy on the rest and it was entirely His choice for reasons that only He knows. So, for some inexplicable reason, He claims to supposedly want to have mercy on all people despite ensuring that would not be possible? That is just completely contradictory. Your view makes a mockery of God and His character, in my opinion. It makes Him a confused God who decides that He wants things that He purposely prevents from even being possible for some unknown reason.

But... He doesn't... <> ...Paul is sure to quote Moses in Romans 9:15, quoting from Moses in Exodus 33, who quotes God Himself as saying, "I will have mercy upon whom I have mercy, compassion upon whom I will have compassion" and then bangs home the point in verse 18 that God "has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills."

Yes, but the question is does God have mercy on people and harden people for no reason that we can discern? I don't believe that. Scripture talks about God having mercy on the merciful and on those who have a contrite heart and so on. He doesn't just randomly choose to have mercy on some and harden others.

Well, you can talk to Moses and Paul about that when you... cross the Jordan to glory, I guess... <smile>

I will enjoy talking to them about how I rightly understood what they taught. I will try to refrain from making fun of you for not understanding them, though. No promises.

Right; this has been discussed many, many times. Yes, there is a sense in which Jesus's atonement was unlimited..

LOL. Why do you say this? No. This is not true from your perspective. This is so incredibly dishonest for you to say. There is no sense in your view in which Jesus's atonement was unlimited because in your view He purposely only atoned for the sins of certain people and not all people. I wish you would stop being so dishonest about what you believe. It's very annoying.

. that it was sufficient to accomplish the redemption of all... and for God to have mercy on all. But still... Paul again... God "has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills" (Romans 9:18).

This is such religious doublespeak. His atonement was sufficient for all, but He purposely made it so that not all would have the opportunity to have their sins atoned for? What? Total nonsense.

Absolutely. But grace, Spiritual Israelite, is unmerited favor. Our works of righteousness, even belief, is the direct result of God's grace...

Where is that taught in scripture, PinSeeker. Show me. The fact of the matter is that works of righteousness are differentiated from faith/belief (Eph 2:8-10, James 2), but you try to make faith/belief a work of righteousness when scripture does not. You should not do that.

God gives us this favor not based on anything we have done, even our belief.

Where does scripture teach this?

Absolutely not. But there are folks who make it out to be that. Faith, the faith that we have, is a work of God ~ His assurance, conviction by the Holy Spirit (He is the One Who convicts). This is the very definition of faith, given in Hebrews 11:1.

No, it isn't. You are badly misinterpreting Hebrews 11:1. Faith involves having confidence and trust in something. If our faith was given to us, then we are not putting our confidence and trust in anything. It's just basically being forced upon us. That's not what faith is.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Finishing:


I assume no such thing; you either miss or twist the point of what I said.

Tell me what responsibility man has in salvation in his own volition by his own choice that God does not decide for him.

Again, I asked... and notice the little smile after... "if the responsibility for one's salvation is divided between God and the one, then shouldn't one praise and worship both God and himself/herself for his/her salvation? <smile>" The point is that the initial responsibility for our salvation ~ what it depends on ~ is not divided between God and man at all, but only belongs to God. So of course we shouldn't... we can't... give praise and worship to both God and ourselves for our salvation.

My point is that what we are responsible to do is humble ourselves and acknowledge that we are lost sinners and need Jesus to save us and need God's mercy. For the sake of argument, assume that someone chooses in their own volition to humble themselves like the tax collector in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector (Luke 18:9-14). Do you think such a person is then going to proceed to praise and worship themselves for what they did despite admitting there is nothing they can do to save themselves and atone for their own sins? Of course not.

However... <smile> ...in thinking God's giving us saving mercy/grace depends first on our belief in effect is to insinuate to some degree, however inadvertent it may be, that are deserving of some of this praise and worship for our salvation.

No no no. God initiated everything by sending His Son to die for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2) and by having the gospel preached throughout the world. Okay? God initiates everything. He also speaks to people's hearts with the Holy Spirit, which can be resisted (Acts 7:51). However, God holds man responsible to choose how to respond to what He did to prove the opportunity to be saved and have one's sins forgiven. Joshua said "choose this day who you will serve". Joshua clearly was not a Calvinist. He knew that people are capable of deciding for themselves what to believe and who they wanted to serve, whether it was the Lord or some false god. He didn't tell them they needed to be regenerated first before they could decide to serve the Lord. No, he just told them to decide between the Lord or one of the false gods.

While scripture talks about unbelievers being dead in sins, it also talks about lost sinners being sick and in need of the physician (Mark 2:16-17). Calvinists don't understand the difference between being dead in sins and being spiritually sick and in need of the physician (Jesus). Being dead in sins simply refers to the fact that someone is separated from a relationship with God. It does not describes one's ability or lack thereof to respond to the gospel. A sick person is able to admit that they are sick and not able to heal themselves and instead need the physician to heal them. Jesus called sinners to repentance and He said sinners are sick and in need of the physician (Him). All people are sinners (Romans 3:23, so He fully expected that all people were capable of answering His call to repentance since there's no reason to think that any spiritually sick person can't do so.

In addition to making faith out to be by something other than God's grace and thus a work of man.

You make faith out to be a work of man, not scripture. Scripture differentiates between saving faith and works (Ephesians 2:8-10, James 2). Scripture teaches that we ARE saved through faith, but NOT by works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Scripture teaches that we are justified by faith, but not by works, and it teaches that our faith is reflected by our works which is why faith without works is dead, as James said. If faith was a work then faith could never be without works.

Arminian believers certainly don't mean to do this, but they do.

Wrong.

 

[PinSeeker]

You are denying that you are a Calvinist?

No, I'm debunking, in effect, what you erroneously think John Calvin said and thus what Calvinists believe.

Yes, but the question is does God have mercy on people and harden people for no reason that we can discern?

Other than it's His sovereign prerogative and for His own glory, yes. As Paul says... well, rhetorically asks:

"Has the Potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Romans 9:21-24)​

I don't believe that.

Fair enough. But it is what it is.

Where is that taught in scripture, PinSeeker. Show me.

Among others:

"Behold, your God will come with vengeance, with the recompense of God. He will come and save you. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped; then shall the lame man leap like a deer, and the tongue of the mute sing for joy" (Isaiah 35:4-6)​

PinSeeker: Our works of righteousness, even belief, is the direct result of God's grace.​

Where is that taught in scripture, PinSeeker. Show me.

Again, among others (I've cited Romans 9:14-18 many times), <smile>

As you know, the father of the boy with the unclean spirit (Mark 9:14-29) cries out to Jesus, "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” In that statement, he was acknowledging that Jesus... God... is the one Who makes belief in Christ possible. To be specific, it is the Holy Spirit Who convicts, but of course the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all one in each other. And, as John says, "...to all who did receive Him, Who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13)​

You are badly misinterpreting Hebrews 11:1...

No, you're just not acknowledging... or accepting, maybe... what it actually is. Again, "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). I've asked this before, but I ask you again, SI ~ rhetorically ~ what... or rather Who... gives us that assurance? And Who convicts us? <smile> So, then,why do we have this faith?

Faith involves having confidence and trust in something.

Sure it does. Because we have this faith, which is the assurance of God that He exists and is Who He says He is and that we are saved and in Christ Jesus. So, as the writer of Hebrews said just previous to Hebrews 11:1, "since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that He opened for us through the curtain, that is, through His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, we can draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. And we can hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He Who promised is faithful." (Hebrews 10:19-23).

If our faith was given to us, then we are not putting our confidence and trust in anything. It's just basically being forced upon us.

Faith, SI, by definition, is clearly not putting our confidence and trust in God. If I put something somewhere, is that somehow not a work of my own? Yet again, "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy" (Romans 9:16). This confidence and trust is a result of the faith ~ the assurance of God ~ we are given by God Himself. This is why we have this confidence and trust.

Tell me what responsibility man has in salvation in his own volition by his own choice that God does not decide for him.

A loaded question, because of the last part of it... "that God does not decide for him." God does not decide for him by any stretch of the imagination. As I have said, over and over again, to you and several others, our decision is the result of the heart... the will always follows the heart. That's what God does for those whom He chooses to have mercy on... he removes the heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh... puts a new spirit in that person... gives him/her His Holy Spirit. Exactly like God says in Ezekiel 11:19-20 and 36:25-27. And then... <smile>

My point is that what we are responsible to do is humble ourselves and acknowledge that we are lost sinners and need Jesus to save us and need God's mercy.

Wholeheartedly agree. But we will not, unless... <smile> ...see above.

For the sake of argument, assume that someone chooses in their own volition to humble themselves like the tax collector in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector (Luke 18:9-14). Do you think such a person is then going to proceed to praise and worship themselves for what they did despite admitting there is nothing they can do to save themselves and atone for their own sins? Of course not.

Right. Agree. But you're either missing the point, or skating around it. In that parable, He's talking to a group of people who "trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt" ... who had hearts of stone.

God initiated everything by sending His Son to die for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2) and by having the gospel preached throughout the world. Okay?

<smile> Well, He promised to do so, in Genesis 3:15... But that's concerning the salvation of the many, not of the individual. Again, Christ died for the world in the sense that, if the whole world were to call in the name of the Lord, then all would be saved. But.... not all are His sheep... not all are given to Him by the Father.

God initiates everything.

<tongue in cheek> Except salvation itself... His salvation. Hmmmm.... <smile> No, with regard to individual salvation, Paul clearly says:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:3-6).​

This is what initiates it.

He also speaks to people's hearts with the Holy Spirit, which can be resisted (Acts 7:51).

Not with regard to being born again of the Spirit and thus saved. As Paul goes on to say ~ and he was certainly present there in the events of Acts 7 and is not contradicting it in any way:

"In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him Who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory" (Ephesians 1:11-14)​

Not "because" we heard and believed, SI, but when we did. This is how faith comes, by hearing (Romans 10:13).

You make faith out to be a work of man, not scripture.

Arminians do. By, in effect, making faith out to be manufactured in the self by man. This was Jacobus Arminius's first "objection," and thus Calvin's first point (drawing from his much greater body of work). What you say here John Calvin surely did not do, and nor do I or any Calvinist worth his/her salt.

Grace and peace to you.