Learning about Orthodoxy

[Pavel Mosko]

My husband is extremely interested in the Orthodox church. I want to support this so I'm making a thread dedicated to learning more about the history and beliefs.

I would love to hear testimonies and things Orthodox members enjoy about Orthodoxy

I think the study of Church history is a great way to avoid deception. A lot of the arguments against Eastern Orthodoxy Im reading here seem dependent on not knowing Church history or even what Orthodoxy is.

Bingo!

I'm sorry I did not see this thread sooner! I got lots of experience in Eastern Christianity. I came very closed to being an Antiochian in 1997. I was attending Ss. Peter and Paul Ben Lomond, a place that was sort of famous, if you read Peter Quilquist "Becoming Orthodox" book or some of the news in the late 90s (there was a famous church split that happened that made national news from the Converts).

I also got experience from the Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Church of the East, and Eastern Catholics.


There is lots of great stuff online to read. I guess if I picked my favorite, it would be this.

From First Baptist to the First Century

And this might be my second one if you deal with lots of Calvinists.

Dialogue on Free Will & Determinism

I look forward to talking to you more, many blessings on your journey!

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I think the study of Church history is a great way to avoid deception. A lot of the arguments against Eastern Orthodoxy Im reading here seem dependent on not knowing Church history or even what Orthodoxy is.

Probably one of the biggest concepts you are going to learn is that of Phronema (mindset), which is the Orthodox way of a Protestant saying is something "Biblical" etc. Phronema speaks to the basic mind set of X, why you do it etc. But this is very important, there have been a lot of topics I have been wanting to write on. Anyway, what Protestants don't realize is the problem of their so called "Biblical" approach. They don't realize the many ways the Bible can and is interpreted and how that comes not objectively, but subjectively from them.

My Best illustration of this comes from snake handling Pentecostals. They have made a kind of sacrament out of snake handling because of the Great Commision passage in the book of Mark, something no other group has done historically! But this kind of thing happens all the time in more subtle ways on other kinds of topics, on other issues.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I also got experience from the Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Church of the East, and Eastern Catholics.

Did you repent for this yet and ask the Lord for forgiveness?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

My husband is extremely interested in the Orthodox church. I want to support this so I'm making a thread dedicated to learning more about the history and beliefs.

I would love to hear testimonies and things Orthodox members enjoy about Orthodoxy here.

My experience of Orthodoxy was very funny. I was very prejudiced of it. This was back in late May 1997. I was trying to study for my final exam in Biblical Greek, attending seminary part in Northern California, Fuller Theological Seminary. I was working as phone recruiter to Focus Groups in a Market Research company in Silicon Valley. And I had a crush on a coworker who liked me as a friend, but not so much romantically but there was enough positive signals that I wanted to try to pursue her if I could subtly, and she just happened to be the daughter of a Russian Orthodox priest.

Anyway, I decided to test drive a local Eastern Orthodox church that was a few miles away from my parent's retirement house. I did not realize at the time that this was actually a kind of famous flag ship church.

Oh I forgot to mention, at this time my official church status was 180 degrees opposite of Eastern Orthodoxy I was a "Nondenominational Charismatic Protestant". I did however grow up as a conservative Lutheran, so had some experience of liturgy etc. But my expectations were very low. Like I was ready to bolt out the backdoor if things got to weird etc.

But you know what things happened completely opposite of how I thought they might. My experience was kind of a combination of Saint Paul on the road to Damascus, and saint Vladmir the Great etc. the best of both accounts. Rather than being paranoid I was curious and really blown away by the beauty of the singing, the passion the artfulness, rather than wanting to take off for the back door, I found myself migrating to the front. And when it came to sensing the Holy Spirit, there was so much there then the biggest Charismatic meeting, and I had been to many of the big ones, and seen all the big names from Benny Hinn healing crusades, to Prophetic Church ones, so called "Apostles" etc.


I also will say I stayed over and went to the book store when it opened up after service and some of the writings did answer a number of questions I had for decades as a Protestant. I will say, I did not get the girl, she definitely was not for me, a bit of a wild child as a PK but it was a life changing experience for the better. I also believe that God is actually doing a work that is opposite of "Reformation" we are recovering the ancient paths etc.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Did you repent for this yet and ask the Lord for forgiv

No. One should not repent of the calling and ministry God has given them, but of things that do not reflect Christ in behavior, attitude etc.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

No. One should not repent of the calling and ministry God has given them, but of things that do not reflect Christ in behavior, attitude etc.

Well, I guess it all depends on who one thinks "God" is

Sadly the Lord Jesus of the Bible does not support so called "orthodox" churches due to the extra biblical false doctrine they do espouse.

I'm sure most of these folks are nice people and mean well, but the false doctrine thing is a deal breaker for the Lord.

Jesus said what God has said IS Truth (John 17:17), and Jesus said the Holy Ghost would lead us in to ALL Truth (John 16:13)

So just like the catholics, the so called "orthodox" churches believe Truth can be found outside of God's Word which greatly pleases the devil because he's all to happy to provide some nice sounding religious teachings that are actually in opposition to what the Lord has said in His Word.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

My husband is extremely interested in the Orthodox church. I want to support this so I'm making a thread dedicated to learning more about the history and beliefs.

I would love to hear testimonies and things Orthodox members enjoy about Orthodoxy here.

Below is a testimony that really spoke to me decades ago, but I recommend its conclusion for yourself as far as converting or non converting etc. I wish they hadn't shortened the original article, because I found the extra details very helpful. But anyway, there is a point that happens when you realize you got more in common with the Orthodox than you do whatever denomination you are with. That is the hallmark of leaving. It should take more work to stay then to leave.

Recovering the Ancient Paths

by Dennis L. Corrigan “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever” The following is a revision of a letter (article) we wrote to the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel to explain…

journeytoorthodoxy.com

There also was a testimony very like it from a Vineyard church that was also in my neck of the woods.

From Vineyard Pastor to Orthodox Priest — Three Hierarchs Orthodox Church

Fr. Seraphim Bell Things have been shaking at the Vineyard Christian Fellowship in San Jose, California. Worship here has taken on a whole new dimension. As pastor, I still prepare for worship by focusing my heart through private prayer. But no longer do I conclude those prayers by tuning my guita

www.wenorthodox.com

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Well, I guess it all depends on who one thinks "God" is

Sadly the Lord Jesus of the Bible does not support so called "orthodox" churches due to the extra biblical false doctrine they do espouse.

I'm sure most of these folks are nice people and mean well, but the false doctrine thing is a deal breaker for the Lord.

Jesus said what God has said IS Truth (John 17:17), and Jesus said the Holy Ghost would lead us in to ALL Truth (John 16:13)

So just like the catholics, the so called "orthodox" churches believe Truth can be found outside of God's Word which greatly pleases the devil because he's all to happy to provide some nice sounding religious teachings that are actually in opposition to what the Lord has said in His Word.

Not only have I heard this all before, I once thought the same way 28+ years ago. I however realize how wrong I was.

1) without the ancient Christians that make up the Catholics and Orthodox we would not even have a Bible period.

2) It's funny how various Protestants go on and on like this. It's like you believe you got the personal gift of infallibility, but part of wisdom is realizing what you don't know.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

It's amazing how the end times falling away is accelerating so fast!

Not only have I heard this all before, I once thought the same way 28+ years ago. I however realize how wrong I was.

1) without the ancient Christians that make up the Catholics and Orthodox we would not even have a Bible period.

2) It's funny how various Protestants go on and on like this. It's like you believe you got the personal gift of infallibility, but part of wisdom is realizing what you don't know.

OK so you're good with false doctrine and see no reason to follow the Lord Jesus and obey His Word.

So called "orthodox" people are just like the catholics in that they cling to teachings that do not come from the Lord Jesus or His Apostles (the Doctrine of Christ) as laid out in the New Testament

Instead they go outside of God's Word and follow religious teachings that come from the Lord's adversary.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

It's amazing how the end times falling away is accelerating so fast!






OK so you're good with false doctrine and see no reason to follow the Lord Jesus and obey His Word.

So called "orthodox" people are just like the catholics in that they cling to teachings that do not come from the Lord Jesus or His Apostles (the Doctrine of Christ) as laid out in the New Testament

Instead they go outside of God's Word and follow religious teachings that come from the Lord's adversary.

You remind me a lot of a Seventh Day Adventist lady on another message board, except her total cause is advocating for the "Bible Sabbath" and you are doing this.

 

[Wynona]

Bingo!

I'm sorry I did not see this thread sooner! I got lots of experience in Eastern Christianity. I came very closed to being an Antiochian in 1997. I was attending Ss. Peter and Paul Ben Lomond, a place that was sort of famous, if you read Peter Quilquist "Becoming Orthodox" book or some of the news in the late 90s (there was a famous church split that happened that made national news from the Converts).

I also got experience from the Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Church of the East, and Eastern Catholics.


There is lots of great stuff online to read. I guess if I picked my favorite, it would be this.

From First Baptist to the First Century

And this might be my second one if you deal with lots of Calvinists.

Dialogue on Free Will & Determinism

I look forward to talking to you more, many blessings on your journey!

I appreciate your testimony and these links! Thank you.

We have a Pentecostal background but have spent a few years just studying Scripture on our own. We kept finding issues in the church we call "churchisms".

* unbiblical Tithing and Building funds
*Drive by evangelism
*Women in authority over men
*Divorce and Remarriage
*Automated Grace
*Lack of charity

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I appreciate your testimony and these links! Thank you.

We have a Pentecostal background but have spent a few years just studying Scripture on our own. We kept finding issues in the church we call "churchisms".

* unbiblical Tithing and Building funds
*Drive by evangelism
*Women in authority over men
*Divorce and Remarriage
*Automated Grace
*Lack of charity

Boy I really wish his Father Dennis Corrigan had kept his full and original story I think you would have appreciated it. The Foursquare carpenter club church was always known to be a very devout and zealous congregation, above average etc. There was one Sunday morning back maybe around 1986 or so where one woman got a word of Knowledge about reading "The ancient Paths" verse, and it was confirmed by 3 other people independently where the verse popped up in the Bible study or in their mind during prayer. Anyway that led them to actually praying for it corporately during the end of one worship service. The nothing seems to happen for maybe a year and half or more. But they eventually get the urge to have daily worship for a revival. But they find that meeting everyday their worship slowly becomes liturgical, all "led by the Spirit". They basically without realizing it start to become more traditional Christian than Pentecostal, so much that they eventually go on a Spiritual Retreat, at a Catholic Camp and run across a book by the Desert Fathers that ends up addressing a lot of their unanswered questions and formally sets them on their way.

 

[Wynona]

From the Vineyard article @Pavel Mosko posted.

"Although there have been dark and trying times in her past, the Orthodox Church has managed to maintain the “faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3) without addition and without deletion for nearly 2,000 years. This is the Church that gave us the formulation of the doctrines of the Incarnation and the Trinity. This is the Church that gave us the canon of Scripture, the Bible. This is the Church that began in New Testament times and has remained in existence for two millennia."

I find that Orthodox people have a sense of humble awe and wonder about the faith that I like.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

From the Vineyard article @Pavel Mosko posted.

"Although there have been dark and trying times in her past, the Orthodox Church has managed to maintain the “faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3) without addition and without deletion for nearly 2,000 years. This is the Church that gave us the formulation of the doctrines of the Incarnation and the Trinity. This is the Church that gave us the canon of Scripture, the Bible. This is the Church that began in New Testament times and has remained in existence for two millennia."

I find that Orthodox people have a sense of humble awe and wonder about the faith that I like.

Yes, this actually has been a big topic in a lot my postings. Recently in the last few years I got involved in Apologetics and Polemics on the issue of Seventh Day Adventism, and their touting the Sabbath in spite of saint Paul and the other details around the New Testament. I often have a lot of company from my Protestant friends supporting and elaborating on things I say. But even here Protestantism has trouble dealing with a pre-Canon Church. Can you imagine that the Church existed for almost 4 centuries without a completed New Testament canon?

And then you get into the issue of dogma, and most of us who aren't Sabbatarian can agree on that, but you do have extra ammo having a background that goes back to before even when the Bible was canonized. Rather than just playing dueling scriptures with somebody you can raise the issue why Saint Paul does not preach like the Preacher of X church group in these different passages in the book of Acts?


I also got to say, I have gotten the same kind of thing dealing with Messianic Jews. Lots of them have some questionable notions about the early church (Most are more Protestant than have a background in Judaism). I have been blessed by a few who can provide some good insights, and may help lead Jews to Christ. (Unlike other Orthodox etc. I don't really believe that not everyone is cut out for Eastern Christianity, or maybe a better way of putting it is God has a way of using people for his purposes and finds a way to constructively use the difference positively to accomplish his will).

 

[Jesus Wept]

Sadly that pathway leads to reformed theology which is not biblical and leads to deception.







Yes, constant in holding on to deception.

Reformed theology became accepted widespread primarily with Augustine who was a gnostic and modern so called "orthodox" churches today still hold to many unbiblical teachings brought for by this Augustine character

So the pathway you are on is one the devil is trying very hard to keep you on as this pathway leads to scripture twisting and heresy which is listed as one of the world of the flesh (see Galatians 5:19-21) that cause people who do these things to not inherit God's Kingdom.

These people seek to impress others with their "rich history" and their "theological degrees" from supposedly big time thological colleges and universities but it's all a ruse to entice others to join them in their deception

You should do yourself a favor and continue with what God's teaches in His Word and refrain from allowing others to influence you in to departing from the truths found in God's Word.





Jesus said tradition makes the word of God of none effect





See there,. he's already telling you to depart from God's Word and believe things not from the Lord, thing not taught by Jesus, His Apostles and not accepted by the early church

Sounds like you have already accepted their seed of deception. Sad.

This dude in the video is demonic! Beware!

Jesus did not say that tradition made the word of God ineffectual, he said "Your" traditions. He was speaking to the Jews.

"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye."

There's nothing wrong with tradition, as long as its scriptural.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

find that Orthodox people have a sense of humble awe and wonder about the faith that I like.

Yes! And this brings me up to one topic I've been wanting to talk about. In the Reformation, especially the English Reformation you see this theme of being "freed from Superstition", it is very strong almost like one of the Solas. I was really reminded of this watching some classic and modern movies and TV shows that cover the era of Henry the 8th, Queen Elizabeth etc. But this really ends up being a bad thing for our culture in a lot of ways.

1) the belief in the supernatural is very natural to the Faith in many ways going back to Judaism, but you see that in pre-reformation Christianity. But the whole Cessationism really took off with the rise of Protestantism, especially Calvinism. Calvin took a musing of saint Augustine and made it into a rule because it helped in debating Catholics. It took him off the hot seat, on the lack of miracles in his movement, when he should have quoted bible passages of "beware of false prophets".


2) There is a lot of existential baggage from this. Like for some folks the Faith is almost an academic thing of knowing the scriptures and doctrine etc. when that is important, but it still is a bit reductionistic.

3) If you look at the legacy of this kind of movement it looks like it set us up for Deism (the separate celestial clockmaker) and that in term would set us up for materialistic atheism.

4) I however personally object to it because I believe it to be fundamentally ahistorical and at odds with the Faith. There is lots of stuff in the Bible and early Church history to suggest that the notion of temple it transcends the earthly temple and tabernacle. Heaven is set up as a throne room and a temple. Believers having the presence of God means we always are in the presence of the supernatural regardless of our formal spiritual gifts. I will say however after seeing a lot of stuff that I believe is Montanism (lots of shouting and aerobics activity in the hopes that will stir up God to heal etc.) I believe more in traditional worship. I really believe many Charismatic tend to equate excitement and novelty with the "anointing". That is a big mistake and it is not even Biblical if folks want to study the history of worship from Judaism into the first few centuries of Christianity.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

he said "Your" traditions. He was speaking to the Jews.

And today the so called "orthodox" church is carrying on the rich tradition of the pharisees and sadducees by adding things to God's Word that God never taught and that are not of God.

There's nothing wrong with tradition, as long as its scriptural.

That's the problem with the so called "orthodox" church - it's not scriptural

They even say they don't just go by what God's Word teaches.

See Post #98 in this thread for some examples.

 

[Lizbeth]

Boy I really wish his Father Dennis Corrigan had kept his full and original story I think you would have appreciated it. The Foursquare carpenter club church was always known to be a very devout and zealous congregation, above average etc. There was one Sunday morning back maybe around 1986 or so where one woman got a word of Knowledge about reading "The ancient Paths" verse, and it was confirmed by 3 other people independently where the verse popped up in the Bible study or in their mind during prayer. Anyway that led them to actually praying for it corporately during the end of one worship service. The nothing seems to happen for maybe a year and half or more. But they eventually get the urge to have daily worship for a revival. But they find that meeting everyday their worship slowly becomes liturgical, all "led by the Spirit". They basically without realizing it start to become more traditional Christian than Pentecostal, so much that they eventually go on a Spiritual Retreat, at a Catholic Camp and run across a book by the Desert Fathers that ends up addressing a lot of their unanswered questions and formally sets them on their way.

The ancient paths that the bible speaks of is not talking about a return to old covenant forms of worship and godliness. That way lies a fall from grace, I'm afraid. The devil has ancient paths of his own, I've seen and felt it and I understand how it can be quite alluring. Entertaining even, or an escape from the hum-drums of daily life.

But Jesus, the Captain of our faith, is our example and showed us the Way.....let us not depart from it. I pray the Lord to open some eyes and hearts to this below, as He was gracious to do for me:

2Co 11:3-4

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes! And this brings me up to one topic I've been wanting to talk about. In the Reformation, especially the English Reformation you see this theme of being "freed from Superstition", it is very strong almost like one of the Solas. I was really reminded of this watching some classic and modern movies and TV shows that cover the era of Henry the 8th, Queen Elizabeth etc. But this really ends up being a bad thing for our culture in a lot of ways.

1) the belief in the supernatural is very natural to the Faith in many ways going back to Judaism, but you see that in pre-reformation Christianity. But the whole Cessationism really took off with the rise of Protestantism, especially Calvinism. Calvin took a musing of saint Augustine and made it into a rule because it helped in debating Catholics. It took him off the hot seat, on the lack of miracles in his movement, when he should have quoted bible passages of "beware of false prophets".


2) There is a lot of existential baggage from this. Like for some folks the Faith is almost an academic thing of knowing the scriptures and doctrine etc. when that is important, but it still is a bit reductionistic.

3) If you look at the legacy of this kind of movement it looks like it set us up for Deism (the separate celestial clockmaker) and that in term would set us up for materialistic atheism.

4) I however personally object to it because I believe it to be fundamentally ahistorical and at odds with the Faith. There is lots of stuff in the Bible and early Church history to suggest that the notion of temple it transcends the earthly temple and tabernacle. Heaven is set up as a throne room and a temple. Believers having the presence of God means we always are in the presence of the supernatural regardless of our formal spiritual gifts. I will say however after seeing a lot of stuff that I believe is Montanism (lots of shouting and aerobics activity in the hopes that will stir up God to heal etc.) I believe more in traditional worship. I really believe many Charismatic tend to equate excitement and novelty with the "anointing". That is a big mistake and it is not even Biblical if folks want to study the history of worship from Judaism into the first few centuries of Christianity.

Sure, we can study one group and another group and pit one against the other......or we could just look into God's word and ask Him to open our eyes to HIS vision for His church, looking neither to the right nor the left.

 

[Lizbeth]

I find that Orthodox people have a sense of humble awe and wonder about the faith that I like.

Is that because of not knowing Him intimately face to face....? Old covenant Jews had that awe as well, who were not born of the Spirit.