Work OUT Your Salvation, not FOR

[BeforeThereWas]

What does Philippians 2:12 mean when it says, "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling"?

Ephesians 2:8–9: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."

Now get Titus 2:11:

Titus 2:11: "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Verse 12: Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world."

What Ephesians 2:8–9 and Titus 2 teach is that we're saved by grace—completely apart from works. It clearly says, "not of works."

Ephesians 2:10: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

So two things are true:

1. You are saved by grace through faith, apart from works. Works play no role in your salvation.
2. Once you're saved, what did God create you to do? To walk in good works.

Ephesians 2:10 is very clear on that. Titus 2:11–12 is also very clear. It says that the grace of God teaches us something—it teaches us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world.

What some people sometimes say is that when you speak of grace, you’re saying people can live any way they want—that it doesn’t matter what they do because they’re saved by grace. So, they say, you can live like the devil, and so your bad works won’t send you to hell. You'll give account for them at the Judgment Seat of Christ. No sound grace preacher would ever say that your life, as a saved person, doesn’t matter. Of course it matters.

The grace of God teaches you to live soberly, righteously, and godly. It matters how you live.

So now, with that as context, look at Philippians 2:12:

Philippians 2:12: "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed—not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence—work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Verse 13: For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Philippians 2:12 does not say to work for your salvation. It says to work out your salvation. In other words, when you get saved, you're saved in a moment of time. You are a lost person—dead in your sins. The moment you believe the gospel, that very instant, what does God do? He justifies you. He declares you righteous. In that moment, you're eternally saved.

But at that instant, did all of your character flaws disappear? They didn’t, did they?

So, what Philippians 2:12 is about is this: Work out your salvation. That means to take the truth of your salvation and make it an experiential reality in your life. A saved person should live differently from a lost person. They should take their salvation and make it real—in how they speak to one another, in how they live, in how they act. That’s the idea behind Philippians 2:12.

Now look at Philippians 3:13:

Philippians 3:13: "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Verse 14: I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."

Verse 13, when it says, “forgetting those things which are behind,” as a saved person, are there memories you have of things in life that, if you could redo them, you would handle differently? The answer is yes. Do people have regrets and guilt about things in life? They do.

The healthy way to deal with those things is this: You have to forget those things which are behind. It is not spiritually productive to dwell on every past fault. The way God looks at it is it’s forgiven. He views it as resolved—and we need to view it as resolved.

So the way to think about past sins is, forget those things which are behind. Then, as verse 14 says, press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. That involves actively walking in the right direction—walking after the Spirit, not after the flesh.

So, that’s how to understand Philippians 2:12 when it says, “Work out your own salvation.” It means to take the fact of your salvation and make it real in your life. It is not saying to work for your salvation.

BTW

 

[bro.tan]

The bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also (James 1:21-22). DON'T FOOL YOURSELF! If we really have faith in Jesus our actions will prove it. If Jesus is our Lord then we will obey him. Even a child will obey a parent, by getting good grades in school, for the reward of a new bicycle. The child cannot earn money for the bicycle, but instead must act upon their faith to receive the free gift. We must do the same to receive eternal life. "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD” (James 2:20).

Some say you must obey God's word, but then they turn around and teach contrary to God's word. At best they never get around to explaining exactly what kind of works are needed to get eternal life. A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).

This was a direct answer to a direct question, which all of us will do well to take heed to. Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).

Nevertheless, in judgment each one of us will give account for our own salvation. Therefore, we must not let anyone lead us down the wrong path, but should verify all of our teaching with the holy bible. YOUR SALVATION IS AT STAKE! "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12).

 

[BeforeThereWas]

The bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also (James 1:21-22). DON'T FOOL YOURSELF! If we really have faith in Jesus our actions will prove it. If Jesus is our Lord then we will obey him. Even a child will obey a parent, by getting good grades in school, for the reward of a new bicycle. The child cannot earn money for the bicycle, but instead must act upon their faith to receive the free gift. We must do the same to receive eternal life. "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD” (James 2:20).

Some say you must obey God's word, but then they turn around and teach contrary to God's word. At best they never get around to explaining exactly what kind of works are needed to get eternal life. A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).

This was a direct answer to a direct question, which all of us will do well to take heed to. Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).

Nevertheless, in judgment each one of us will give account for our own salvation. Therefore, we must not let anyone lead us down the wrong path, but should verify all of our teaching with the holy bible. YOUR SALVATION IS AT STAKE! "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12).

You've hit upon an important point. The RCC claims Peter and the Kingdom Gospel he preached are relevant for us today. I happen to disagree with that, as is also backed by scripture. I believe there's value in all of scripture, but not all of it applies to us today. For example, keeping the Law is not the means by which we today are saved. That command from Jesus in Matthew 19 was for Israel, whom He clearly stated are they to whom He was sent, not to Gentiles nor the body of Christ, which consists of both Gentiles and Jews alike.

I fully agree that good works are indeed the natural outflow from a salvation already bestowed upon all who believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ on the third day, as Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, which laid down no requirement for works to obtain salvation by grace through faith.

Grace is not grace if coupled together with works. They are not elements that can be intermixed for salvation. It's either one or the other, not both for today, and works will certainly not get one there, so it can only be grace through faith.

Rightly dividing the word of truth is of utmost importance.

Thanks for your comments.

BTW

 

[Debp]

What does Philippians 2:12 mean when it says, "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling"?

Ephesians 2:8–9: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."

Now get Titus 2:11:

Titus 2:11: "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Verse 12: Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world."

What Ephesians 2:8–9 and Titus 2 teach is that we're saved by grace—completely apart from works. It clearly says, "not of works."

Ephesians 2:10: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

So two things are true:

1. You are saved by grace through faith, apart from works. Works play no role in your salvation.
2. Once you're saved, what did God create you to do? To walk in good works.

Ephesians 2:10 is very clear on that. Titus 2:11–12 is also very clear. It says that the grace of God teaches us something—it teaches us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world.

What some people sometimes say is that when you speak of grace, you’re saying people can live any way they want—that it doesn’t matter what they do because they’re saved by grace. So, they say, you can live like the devil, and so your bad works won’t send you to hell. You'll give account for them at the Judgment Seat of Christ. No sound grace preacher would ever say that your life, as a saved person, doesn’t matter. Of course it matters.

The grace of God teaches you to live soberly, righteously, and godly. It matters how you live.

So now, with that as context, look at Philippians 2:12:

Philippians 2:12: "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed—not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence—work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Verse 13: For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Philippians 2:12 does not say to work for your salvation. It says to work out your salvation. In other words, when you get saved, you're saved in a moment of time. You are a lost person—dead in your sins. The moment you believe the gospel, that very instant, what does God do? He justifies you. He declares you righteous. In that moment, you're eternally saved.

But at that instant, did all of your character flaws disappear? They didn’t, did they?

So, what Philippians 2:12 is about is this: Work out your salvation. That means to take the truth of your salvation and make it an experiential reality in your life. A saved person should live differently from a lost person. They should take their salvation and make it real—in how they speak to one another, in how they live, in how they act. That’s the idea behind Philippians 2:12.

Now look at Philippians 3:13:

Philippians 3:13: "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Verse 14: I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."

Verse 13, when it says, “forgetting those things which are behind,” as a saved person, are there memories you have of things in life that, if you could redo them, you would handle differently? The answer is yes. Do people have regrets and guilt about things in life? They do.

The healthy way to deal with those things is this: You have to forget those things which are behind. It is not spiritually productive to dwell on every past fault. The way God looks at it is it’s forgiven. He views it as resolved—and we need to view it as resolved.

So the way to think about past sins is, forget those things which are behind. Then, as verse 14 says, press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. That involves actively walking in the right direction—walking after the Spirit, not after the flesh.

So, that’s how to understand Philippians 2:12 when it says, “Work out your own salvation.” It means to take the fact of your salvation and make it real in your life. It is not saying to work for your salvation.

BTW

This is an excellent explanation. I get so tired of some people misinterpreting what we believe.

Your teaching style reminds me of @Behold

 

[bro.tan]

You've hit upon an important point. The RCC claims Peter and the Kingdom Gospel he preached are relevant for us today. I happen to disagree with that, as is also backed by scripture. I believe there's value in all of scripture, but not all of it applies to us today. For example, keeping the Law is not the means by which we today are saved. That command from Jesus in Matthew 19 was for Israel, whom He clearly stated are they to whom He was sent, not to Gentiles nor the body of Christ, which consists of both Gentiles and Jews alike.

I fully agree that good works are indeed the natural outflow from a salvation already bestowed upon all who believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ on the third day, as Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, which laid down no requirement for works to obtain salvation by grace through faith.

Grace is not grace if coupled together with works. They are not elements that can be intermixed for salvation. It's either one or the other, not both for today, and works will certainly not get one there, so it can only be grace through faith.

Rightly dividing the word of truth is of utmost importance.

Thanks for your comments.

BTW

Pauls says in Romans 2: 7 to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 for there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Pauls says in Romans 2: 7 to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 for there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Let's get the rest of that context:

Romans 2:13-16
13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

The Hebrew Roots gang love trying to use this section as justification for a return to Law-keeping, which justifies nobody under his gospel. Through this section, Paul was making the case for the impartiality of God and the condemnation of the Jew by the Law.

Romans 2:17-29

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

I've heard it said that context is king... Well, in this case, context helps keep the meaning of key statements from being abused to easily as is the case with some I have encountered through the years who think that going back to the Law will somehow make them better somehow.

Good stuff, tan. Thanks.

BTW

 

[Jesus Wept]

 

[bro.tan]

Let's get the rest of that context:

Romans 2:13-16
13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

The Hebrew Roots gang love trying to use this section as justification for a return to Law-keeping, which justifies nobody under his gospel. Through this section, Paul was making the case for the impartiality of God and the condemnation of the Jew by the Law.

Romans 2:17-29

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

I've heard it said that context is king... Well, in this case, context helps keep the meaning of key statements from being abused to easily as is the case with some I have encountered through the years who think that going back to the Law will somehow make them better somehow.

Good stuff, tan. Thanks.

BTW

Paul concerning the unchangeable Royal Law of God. (Rom. 13:7-10) (v.7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. (v.8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. That’s the biblical definition of love, the keeping of God’s law. (v.9) For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. (v.10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

And that is what God’s holy commandments are all about; the first four tells you how to love God and the last six tells you how to love your neighbor. If you love your God you will not do any thing to offend him, like having other gods before him. You will do as he says like remember the sabbath day to keep it holy on the seventh day of the week. If you love him you will obey him when he tells you not to eat certain meats etc… And the same goes for your fellow man, if you love your neighbor you wouldn’t steal from him, you wouldn’t kill him, you wouldn’t try and sleep with his wife and so on and so forth. (See exodus 20: 1-17)

This is God’s definition of love and it is perfect in its ways. The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: The judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: And in keeping of them there is great reward. (Psalm 19: 7-11)

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Paul concerning the unchangeable Royal Law of God. (Rom. 13:7-10) (v.7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. (v.8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. That’s the biblical definition of love, the keeping of God’s law. (v.9) For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. (v.10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

And that is what God’s holy commandments are all about; the first four tells you how to love God and the last six tells you how to love your neighbor. If you love your God you will not do any thing to offend him, like having other gods before him. You will do as he says like remember the sabbath day to keep it holy on the seventh day of the week. If you love him you will obey him when he tells you not to eat certain meats etc… And the same goes for your fellow man, if you love your neighbor you wouldn’t steal from him, you wouldn’t kill him, you wouldn’t try and sleep with his wife and so on and so forth. (See exodus 20: 1-17)

This is God’s definition of love and it is perfect in its ways. The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: The judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: And in keeping of them there is great reward. (Psalm 19: 7-11)

The Law of Yah is indeed perfect in every way, and is a standard by which we're not required to try and be justified.

For that, I am so thankful.

BTW

 

[FaithWillDo]

What does Philippians 2:12 mean when it says, "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling"?

So, that’s how to understand Philippians 2:12 when it says, “Work out your own salvation.” It means to take the fact of your salvation and make it real in your life. It is not saying to work for your salvation.

BTW

Dear BeforeThereWas,

You summed up Phi 2:12 by saying "It means to take the fact of your salvation and make it real in your life. It is not saying to work for your salvation".

What you stated is true but that is not what Paul is saying in Phi 2:12-13.

To understand what Paul is saying to the Philippian believers, you must understand that the Philippian believers were not converted when Paul wrote to them.

Phi 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Conversion requires the Early AND Latter Rains of the Spirit, followed by the Day of the Lord (day of Jesus Christ).

The Early Rain is a small measure of the Spirit that Christ gives to an unbeliever to make them into a believer. Paul received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road and the Apostles receive it when they walk with Christ in the flesh.

After a person has the small measure of the Spirit, the Spirit will cause the person to make a confession of faith after they are presented the Gospel.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

After the person makes a confession of faith, they will enter the church and will begin following Christ. But because the Early Rain of the Spirit is given in measure (a small amount/not the baptism), the new believer will remain spiritually blind, carnally minded and unconverted. This type of believer is a babe who can only draw milk.

Every believer begins following Christ as a babe. As long as a babe remains faithful (like the Philippian babes were doing), they will be justified by their faith and will be covered by the blood of Christ (not condemned by the law) as they wait for Christ to return and convert them (Latter Rain & judgment of the Day of the Lord).

So why does Paul say that while a babe waits for their salvation (like the Philippians were doing), they are to do so in "fear and trembling"?

Here is why:

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Here are some of those words that apply to a babe as they wait for the Lord to return to complete their salvation:

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Christ describes in the scripture below how the babes in the church were devoured by the wolves after Paul's death:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.

Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

This "worse than the first" spiritual condition causes the believer to become a False Prophet, a Man of Sin, a Minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns & Crowns.

After Paul's death, all the babes (includes the Elect) have had to live by the words that Christ spoke in Mat 12:43-45. Because Paul knew that the apostasy was coming into the churches, he warned them to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling because it is God who will cause each of them to "will and do of His good pleasure" (this includes becoming apostate while they wait).

Joe

 

[bro.tan]

The Law of Yah is indeed perfect in every way, and is a standard by which we're not required to try and be justified.

For that, I am so thankful.

BTW

Paul said in Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Do not let anyone convince you that it's wrong to keep God's commandments. Don't let anyone deprive you of the opportunity to receive eternal life. We were deprived of this opportunity once, but the death of Jesus has given us another chance. All have sinned (broken the law...Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law (I John 3:4) and the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). When Jesus (the true Lamb of God) was sacrificed, he removed our past sins. If we accept Jesus as our sin offering, we are required to repent and get baptized IN THE NAME OF JESUS ("there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved..."(Acts 4: 12). This is our last chance Brothers and Sister.

To repent means to turn from our sinful ways and start obeying God's law. The water baptism signifies the washing away of our past sins. After repenting and being baptized in the name of Jesus it would be foolish for us to turn around and willingly break God's commandments. If we make an honest mistake Jesus can help us, but if we sin willingly, look out! "...there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation..." (Hebrews 10:26-27). When Jesus died only the sacrificial law was done away with, alone with Leviticus priesthood.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Dear BeforeThereWas,

You summed up Phi 2:12 by saying "It means to take the fact of your salvation and make it real in your life. It is not saying to work for your salvation".

What you stated is true but that is not what Paul is saying in Phi 2:12-13.

To understand what Paul is saying to the Philippian believers, you must understand that the Philippian believers were not converted when Paul wrote to them.

Phi 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Conversion requires the Early AND Latter Rains of the Spirit, followed by the Day of the Lord (day of Jesus Christ).

The Early Rain is a small measure of the Spirit that Christ gives to an unbeliever to make them into a believer. Paul received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road and the Apostles receive it when they walk with Christ in the flesh.

After a person has the small measure of the Spirit, the Spirit will cause the person to make a confession of faith after they are presented the Gospel.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

After the person makes a confession of faith, they will enter the church and will begin following Christ. But because the Early Rain of the Spirit is given in measure (a small amount/not the baptism), the new believer will remain spiritually blind, carnally minded and unconverted. This type of believer is a babe who can only draw milk.

Every believer begins following Christ as a babe. As long as a babe remains faithful (like the Philippian babes were doing), they will be justified by their faith and will be covered by the blood of Christ (not condemned by the law) as they wait for Christ to return and convert them (Latter Rain & judgment of the Day of the Lord).

So why does Paul say that while a babe waits for their salvation (like the Philippians were doing), they are to do so in "fear and trembling"?

Here is why:

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Here are some of those words that apply to a babe as they wait for the Lord to return to complete their salvation:

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Christ describes in the scripture below how the babes in the church were devoured by the wolves after Paul's death:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.

Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

This "worse than the first" spiritual condition causes the believer to become a False Prophet, a Man of Sin, a Minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns & Crowns.

After Paul's death, all the babes (includes the Elect) have had to live by the words that Christ spoke in Mat 12:43-45. Because Paul knew that the apostasy was coming into the churches, he warned them to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling because it is God who will cause each of them to "will and do of His good pleasure" (this includes becoming apostate while they wait).

Joe

Sorry, but I don't subscribe to the Charismatic system of interpretation, which makes salvation a system of works intermixed with faith. Works-based salvation is not a valid interpretation from what I have found through the Systematic Theology studies I have worked through in the years of my research. As an Israeli, I am well acquainted with the works-based dispensation, and we are not under that dispensation today.

So, in summary, I disagree with your premises and conclusion.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Paul said in Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Do not let anyone convince you that it's wrong to keep God's commandments. Don't let anyone deprive you of the opportunity to receive eternal life. We were deprived of this opportunity once, but the death of Jesus has given us another chance. All have sinned (broken the law...Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law (I John 3:4) and the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). When Jesus (the true Lamb of God) was sacrificed, he removed our past sins. If we accept Jesus as our sin offering, we are required to repent and get baptized IN THE NAME OF JESUS ("there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved..."(Acts 4: 12). This is our last chance Brothers and Sister.

To repent means to turn from our sinful ways and start obeying God's law. The water baptism signifies the washing away of our past sins. After repenting and being baptized in the name of Jesus it would be foolish for us to turn around and willingly break God's commandments. If we make an honest mistake Jesus can help us, but if we sin willingly, look out! "...there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation..." (Hebrews 10:26-27). When Jesus died only the sacrificial law was done away with, alone with Leviticus priesthood.

We are in agreement that doing good and following the Law is also good, but not necessary for salvation. Therein is the difference between works-based salvation and salvation by grace through faith. The good that I do is that which He works through me.

BTW

 

[FaithWillDo]

Sorry, but I don't subscribe to the Charismatic system of interpretation, which makes salvation a system of works intermixed with faith. Works-based salvation is not a valid interpretation from what I have found through the Systematic Theology studies I have worked through in the years of my research. As an Israeli, I am well acquainted with the works-based dispensation, and we are not under that dispensation today.

So, in summary, I disagree with your premises and conclusion.

BTW

Dear BeforeThereWas,
I certainly don't subscribe to the "Charismatic system of interpretation" either. That is not what I presented you. What I presented was what scripture teaches.

Apparently you did not read my post carefully or you read into my comments things that I did not say.

Consider what Christ said to Peter in the verse below:

John 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

Now consider what the verse below teaches:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Now answer this one question:

How was it possible for Peter to call Jesus his Lord and Master before Peter was baptized by the Spirit (the Latter Rain) on the day of Pentecost?

Here is the answer according to scripture:

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

In order for Peter to know that Jesus was the Christ and for him to have the ability to accept Jesus as his Lord, Peter had to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Since we know without any doubt that Peter had not yet received the baptism of the Spirit, what did Peter have that gave him the ability to call Jesus "Lord"? Peter (like all babes have) had the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Here are a few verses to consider:

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he (Christ) shall come unto us as the Rain, as the Latter and Early Rain unto the earth.

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small Rain (Early Rain) upon the tender herb, and as the showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass:

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in Jehovah your God; for he giveth you the Early Rain in just measure (a small amount), and he causes to come down for you the Rain, the Early Rain and the Latter Rain, in the first month.

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small Rain (Early Rain), and to the great Rain (Latter Rain/the baptism) of his strength.

Now that we know that Peter had the Early Rain of the Spirit and was a babe in Christ, consider what Christ said to Peter below:

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat (a symbol for the Elect):

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee (Peter), that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Because Peter was not yet converted (Latter Rain & judgment), Peter was susceptible to Satan's deceptions and to falling away from faith. The same is true for all babes in Christ. And according to Acts 20:29-31, falling away was certain to happen to all babes after Paul's death. And as I presented in my first post, Mat 12:43-45 shows how and why it will happen to the babes.

Because all the babes since the end of the 1st century have been deceived by Satan and have fallen away, scripture says that when a fallen away babe is given the Latter Rain (the baptism), their spiritual blindness will be healed and they will see that they had become a "man of sin":

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and RAIN (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Because Paul knew that the spirit of anti-Christ would soon be devouring the babes in the church, Paul said to the Philippian babes that they should work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

All the churches of this world are apostate and have been so since the end of the 1st century. They follow "another gospel" that teaches the false doctrines of free will and hell which mixes works with faith. When a babe mixes works with faith, they are committing the sin that leads to death. It is with this sin that Satan kills the saints while they are babes.

I would like to hear your answer to the question that I presented at the start of this post.

Joe

 

[bro.tan]

We are in agreement that doing good and following the Law is also good, but not necessary for salvation. Therein is the difference between works-based salvation and salvation by grace through faith. The good that I do is that which He works through me.

BTW

I believe the Bible teaches us that following the Law is also good, but very necessary for salvation. Now, Paul concerning the unchangeable Royal Law of God. In (Rom. 13:7-10) (v.7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. (v.8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. That’s the biblical definition of love, the keeping of God’s law. And you thought love was kissing and hugging and rolling around in bed. (v.9) For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. (v.10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

And that is what God’s holy commandments are all about; the first four tells you how to love God and the last six tells you how to love your neighbor. If you love your God you will not do any thing to offend him, like having other gods before him. You will do as he says like remember the sabbath day to keep it holy on the seventh day of the week. If you love him you will obey him when he tells you not to eat certain meats etc… And the same goes for your fellow man, if you love your neighbor you wouldn’t steal from him, you wouldn’t kill him, you wouldn’t try and sleep with his wife and so on and so forth. This is God’s definition of love and it is perfect in its ways. So if you say that you know God, but you don’t keep his commandments, let's see what the Lord had specially written. (See exodus 20: 1-17). (1John 2:3-4) (v.3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (v.4) he that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Jesus crucifixion is sometimes called substitutionary. But Christianity's one
time atonement is an event that invites observers to participate instead of
only watching from the sidelines.

To wit: by a mysterious administrative process which I do not yet fully
understand, God reckons folks unified with Christ as joint principals in his
crucifixion, viz: they are accounted as being with him on the cross.

● Rom 6:3 . .Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into
Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

● Rom 6:6 . . Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him

● Gal 2:20 . . I am crucified with Christ

● Col 3:3 . . For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

In addition; seeing as how folks unified with Christ are accounted
participants with him when he was crucified, then they are also accounted
participants with him when his crucified dead body was restored to life.

● Rom 6:4-5 . . For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his
death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

● Eph 2:6 . . God raised us up with Christ

● Col 2:12 . . Buried with him in baptism, wherein also you are risen with
him

● Col 3:1-3 . . You have been raised with Christ,

Now, the thing is: Jesus' crucified dead body was restored to life with
immortality. (Rom 6:9, Rev 1:18, Rev 2:8) So then, folks unified with Christ
in his death and resurrection have perpetual youth in the bag, i.e. it's a done
deal and it's irrevocable.

FAQ: How would someone go about becoming a joint principal with Christ in
his crucifixion? In other words: how do I go about getting myself nailed up
there with him?

REPLY: RSVP

Find a quiet moment. Cover your face with your hands for a sense of privacy
and simply speak with God-- aloud or under your breath --saying, in your
own words:

"God, I'm a sinner with a lot to answer for. I would like to be accounted
crucified with your son if I may. Thank You."

FAQ: Supposing I don't have a lot to answer for.

REPLY: Do as I advise anyway because the justice for any amount of sin is
death (Rom 6:23) and everyone fails to measure up to God's sinless
perfection.

● Rom 3:23 . . All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
_

 

[Rockerduck]

Ok back to Philippians 2:12. To work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Fear and trembling means to live soberly, to walk a straight line, then let go and let God do His work in you.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Dear BeforeThereWas,
I certainly don't subscribe to the "Charismatic system of interpretation" either. That is not what I presented you. What I presented was what scripture teaches.

Apparently you did not read my post carefully or you read into my comments things that I did not say.

Consider what Christ said to Peter in the verse below:

John 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

Now consider what the verse below teaches:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Now answer this one question:

How was it possible for Peter to call Jesus his Lord and Master before Peter was baptized by the Spirit (the Latter Rain) on the day of Pentecost?

Here is the answer according to scripture:

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

In order for Peter to know that Jesus was the Christ and for him to have the ability to accept Jesus as his Lord, Peter had to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Since we know without any doubt that Peter had not yet received the baptism of the Spirit, what did Peter have that gave him the ability to call Jesus "Lord"? Peter (like all babes have) had the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Here are a few verses to consider:

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he (Christ) shall come unto us as the Rain, as the Latter and Early Rain unto the earth.

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small Rain (Early Rain) upon the tender herb, and as the showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass:

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in Jehovah your God; for he giveth you the Early Rain in just measure (a small amount), and he causes to come down for you the Rain, the Early Rain and the Latter Rain, in the first month.

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small Rain (Early Rain), and to the great Rain (Latter Rain/the baptism) of his strength.

Now that we know that Peter had the Early Rain of the Spirit and was a babe in Christ, consider what Christ said to Peter below:

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat (a symbol for the Elect):

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee (Peter), that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Because Peter was not yet converted (Latter Rain & judgment), Peter was susceptible to Satan's deceptions and to falling away from faith. The same is true for all babes in Christ. And according to Acts 20:29-31, falling away was certain to happen to all babes after Paul's death. And as I presented in my first post, Mat 12:43-45 shows how and why it will happen to the babes.

Because all the babes since the end of the 1st century have been deceived by Satan and have fallen away, scripture says that when a fallen away babe is given the Latter Rain (the baptism), their spiritual blindness will be healed and they will see that they had become a "man of sin":

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and RAIN (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Because Paul knew that the spirit of anti-Christ would soon be devouring the babes in the church, Paul said to the Philippian babes that they should work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

All the churches of this world are apostate and have been so since the end of the 1st century. They follow "another gospel" that teaches the false doctrines of free will and hell which mix works with faith. When a babe mixes works with faith, they are committing the sin that leads to death. It is with this sin that Satan kills the saints while they are babes.

I would like to hear your answer to the question that I presented at the start of this post.

Joe

Again, I cannot subscribe to your methods of ripping verses from their contexts, spiritualize them, and thus apply them in the manner as you have done to try and build a larger set of support that simply isn't there. When the texts speak clearly about literal rain, and someone spiritualizes it to co form to a preconceived notion of parallelism, my upbringing as an Israeli bars me from such grandiose subjectivity. I agree somewhat with some of your statements, but not all.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I believe the Bible teaches us that following the Law is also good, but very necessary for salvation. Now, Paul concerning the unchangeable Royal Law of God. In (Rom. 13:7-10) (v.7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. (v.8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. That’s the biblical definition of love, the keeping of God’s law. And you thought love was kissing and hugging and rolling around in bed. (v.9) For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. (v.10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

And that is what God’s holy commandments are all about; the first four tells you how to love God and the last six tells you how to love your neighbor. If you love your God you will not do any thing to offend him, like having other gods before him. You will do as he says like remember the sabbath day to keep it holy on the seventh day of the week. If you love him you will obey him when he tells you not to eat certain meats etc… And the same goes for your fellow man, if you love your neighbor you wouldn’t steal from him, you wouldn’t kill him, you wouldn’t try and sleep with his wife and so on and so forth. This is God’s definition of love and it is perfect in its ways. So if you say that you know God, but you don’t keep his commandments, let's see what the Lord had specially written. (See exodus 20: 1-17). (1John 2:3-4) (v.3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (v.4) he that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Then you are a believer in works-based salvation. If works of effort are required on our part to retain it, then works must also be involved in obtaining it. That is the problem one must overcome.

We have the EARNEST of our salvation, which is Holy Spirit, unto the day of our redemption at the rapture. To teach that the Lord would ever cast away His own Spirit given as EARNEST, by having withdrawn salvation, you will have an impossible task ahead of you in trying to explain that one away. Playing upon the Law is nothing but a denial of what Paul has already said about all this. The Power the Lord utilizes when working His work of sanctification within each of us, that is very real and enduring, thus the lack for any need that we apply our own inferior efforts in keeping the Law as some sort of contrived means for retaining our salvation.

If that doesn't address the thrust of your comments, then please clarify because what you stated smacks of salvational retention on the basis of personal effort...akin to saying, "Well, you gotta live it to keep it."

BTW

 

[FaithWillDo]

When the texts speak clearly about literal rain, and someone spiritualizes it to co form to a preconceived notion of parallelism, my upbringing as an Israeli bars me from such grandiose subjectivity. I agree somewhat with some of your statements, but not all.

BTW

Dear BeforeThereWas,

Here is how scripture says Christ's New Covenant truth is taught:

John 6:63 ...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Christ's New Covenant teachings use "spirit" words. Spirit words carry meanings that are different than what man's wisdom teaches:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things (words) with spiritual (words).

Scripture even says that Christ's teachings are taught in "another language":

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (the converted Elect). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (babes who draw milk) precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).

The truth of Christ's New Covenant teachings is reserved for ONLY the converted Elect who have received the Spirit of Truth (John 16:13) and have had their spiritual blindness healed. All others, including babes who can only draw milk (Christ and Him crucified, 1Cor 2:2), will think that they understand the truth, but they will not. Because of a babe's spiritual blindness, Satan has no trouble deceiving the babes into accepting "another gospel" that mixes works with faith.

When a babe accepts Satan's false gospel, they will "fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken" by Satan. It is in this way that Satan kills the saints and builds his apostate church in the world - a church that masquerades as the true church. It happens because it is God's "will" for it to happen. Mankind does not direct their own steps:

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word (includes leavened bread, Mat 13:33) that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Because unconverted believers (babes) remain carnally minded and spiritually blind after receiving the Early Rain, they will understand Christ's New Covenant teachings in a carnal way rather than in a spiritual way. You are doing this when you say that the "rain" is just literal rain. But when a person understands the spirit word "rain" in this carnal way, the truth of what Christ is teaching will pass them by.

Another example of a carnal understanding of scripture is how a babe understands end-time prophecy. The end-time prophecies are not teaching about outward one-time world events that happen at the literal of the age. The end-time prophecies apply within an Elect person and are teaching the spiritual events which led them to their conversion/salvation.

Paul said that the Elect have the end of the ages come upon them before they die. It was not a far off event for them.

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

When the ends of the ages come upon an Elect person, Christ will pour out the Latter Rain upon them. The Latter Rain will heal the believer's spiritual blindness which will cause Christ to spiritually appear to them. This appearing is the second coming of Christ that is taught in scripture. After Christ appears, He will judge the believer for the purpose of changing them spiritually. This judgment is taught in Mat 24:37-41 and in the last half of Revelation chapter 19. After this judgment is complete, they will be converted and will have had the end of the ages come upon them.

Changing subjects now: You say that you don't mix works with faith but from what you have stated on this thread, I can see that you do.

I will present below how scripture says Christ saves a person. The person has no say in the matter nor do they contribute anything towards their own salvation. Christ is the Savior and He saves them because that is the mission that His Father gave Him to accomplish.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

When Christ is ready to begin the salvation process within a person, He will come to them as the Early Rain.

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he (Christ) shall come unto us as the Rain, as the Latter and Early Rain unto the earth.

Paul received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road. Paul did not ask for the Early Rain nor did Christ ask Paul if he wanted to receive it. In fact, at that time, Paul hatred Christ and it was not Paul's intention of ever becoming a Christian himself. But all that changed for Paul when Christ "suddenly" came to His temple (Paul) and gave Paul the small measure of the Spirit. After Christ gave Paul the Spirit, Paul fell to his knees and called Jesus "Lord". Paul then submitted to Christ's authority over him and asked "what do you want me to do?".

After Paul was given the Early Rain on the Damascus Road, Paul became a babe in Christ. Paul became blind to represent his spiritual blindness. Paul was then "led by the hand" (the blind leading the blind) into Damascus (a symbol for earthly Jerusalem) where Paul remained spiritually blind for three days. As a result of Paul's blindness, Paul was unable to eat or drink the true bread from heaven or Christ's New Wine. The "three days" represented the spiritual process that Paul went through in Damascus which caused Paul to fall away and become apostate. Christ describes this process in Mat 12:43-45.

Because Paul become apostate while he waited for the Lord to return with the Latter Rain, Paul stayed at a house of a man named Judas. When Christ was ready to return to Paul after his three days were complete, Christ (typed by Ananias) travelled on a street named straight. This street represented that Christ's pathway was made straight to return to Paul. When Christ came, Christ poured out the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain/Spirit of Truth) upon Paul and the scales fell from Paul's eyes. With the healing of Paul's spiritual blindness, Paul was told to "eat meat" so that he could be strengthened by the truth.

It is from the truth of what Paul consumed that judgment fell on Paul and sanctified (purified) him. After Paul was spiritually changed and purified, Paul was converted and saved.

It is in this same way that Christ will save all the Elect of this age. It happens by the will and work of Christ. The person contributes nothing, not even their confession of faith is their own.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

If Christ wanted to save all mankind today, He could do it. But in this age, Christ is saving only the Elect - those chosen by the Father for the blessing of being saved first. In the next and final age though, Christ will save the balance of mankind just as the prophets foretold.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Restated by Paul:

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

And here, too:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

All mankind will be saved before the last age comes to an end. It happens because it is God's "will" for it to happen and not because of man's "will".

Joe