Was the Cross Always Understood?

[BeforeThereWas]

Was the Cross Always Understood?

You’ve probably heard someone say, “Today we are saved by looking back to the cross, just like in time past everyone was saved by looking forward to the cross.”

Sounds spiritual. But is that true?

Did God say to Noah, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved”?
No—He told Noah: I’m going to flood the earth. Build an ark or you’ll drown.

Paul, in contrast, says in Acts 16,

Acts 16:30–31
“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”

Now look at 1 Corinthians 15:1–4.
Paul lays out the gospel clearly:

“Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day, according to the Scriptures.”

That’s the gospel Paul preached.

Now—did Peter and the Twelve understand and preach that gospel before the cross?

Look at Mark 9:31–32:

“He taught his disciples and said, The Son of Man shall be delivered, killed, and rise again the third day.
But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.”

Satan knew of the coming death and resurrection of Christ, even though the disciples didn't understand the cross—even though the Lord told them directly, face to face.

So can we honestly say “everyone before the cross understood it the same way we do today”?
No—they didn’t.

That’s not rightly dividing the Word of Truth. It’s just soft, unscriptural thinking deeply encased in human emotions.

What do they teach where you attend on Sunday?

BTW

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

You know, one stick going one way, another stick going another way

Not hard to understand.

 

[quietthinker]

Was the Cross Always Understood?​

It is still not understood today. Large slabs of the 'Christian' world see the cross as appeasing an angry God. They have identified God with the Pagan gods.
The crucifixion was the result of angry men and demons hating a loving God.

If God were angry he wouldn't have sought and brought Adam and Eve promises and gifts
If God were angry he wouldn't have submitted to being murdered.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

The crucifixion was the result of angry men and demons hating a loving God.

It was actually a trap the Lord set for the devil resulting in Jesus taking back the authority and dominion God gave to Adam that Adam gave to the devil when he committed high treason against God

1 Corinthians 2:5-8
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

 

[quietthinker]

It was actually a trap the Lord set for the devil resulting in Jesus taking back the authority and dominion God gave to Adam that Adam gave to the devil when he committed high treason against God

1 Corinthians 2:5-8
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

You speak as with a carnal mind BBJ. God doesn't set traps. He is wayyyyyyyyy above that thinking.
The only thing that motivates God is love towards his creation....nothing else.

Have you ever wondered why God hasn't made short work of Satan wayyyyy before now?
Have you ever wondered why he lets children grow in the wombs of pagan women and all those who 'christians' despise....even those on the 'wrong' political side?

 

[Debp]

Was the Cross Always Understood?​

It is still not understood today. Large slabs of the 'Christian' world see the cross as appeasing an angry God. They have identified God with the Pagan gods.
The crucifixion was the result of angry men and demons hating a loving God.

If God were angry he wouldn't have sought and brought Adam and Eve promises and gifts
If God were angry he wouldn't have submitted to being murdered.

Do you not believe in the atoning work that Jesus accomplished on the cross?

 

[Behold]

​

The crucifixion was the result of angry men and demons hating a loving God.

The Crucifixiom was planned by God, as the way back to God for the entire Human Race, before God created Adam.

See, God knew that when He created Humans with the right to choose (Free Will) They were going to choose what they chose.
So, He always had the "way back home" for Lost sinners... Planned....= and this Way is Jesus,... who is "THE Way... to the Father".

John 14:6

Understand.... that The Cross is the ACTIUAL "Way" back, for "all who believe".......or """as many as receive Jesus, God gives to them the POWER to become a Son-Daughter of God"."" = FOREVER..

Welcome to : Salvation.

Its God wrapped in Human Flesh, offering Himself for YOU and ME, so that we can be forgiven, and restored into eternal fellowship with God and Christ. = FOREVER.

JESUS, is this eternal Restoration........as "The Cross of Christ".

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

God doesn't set traps

That's just what you think pal.

The only thing that motivates God is love towards his creation....nothing else.

You're not going to try and claim God loves satan and all those demons are ya?

I sure hope not because only the demon possessed claim satan and demons are saved.

 

[quietthinker]

Do you not believe in the atoning work that Jesus accomplished on the cross?

Yes I do believe Deb.
How one sees/ understands the work of Jesus, both in his ministry and on the cross shifts the affections to either a place of self focus and blame or one of admiration and gratitude. It sees others as valuable.

A counterfeit gospel or a misapprehension always results in a them and us paradigm/ mentality which inevitably results on self focus and blame.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

A counterfeit gospel

You mean like universalism?

 

[Debp]

Was the Cross Always Understood?​

It is still not understood today. Large slabs of the 'Christian' world see the cross as appeasing an angry God. They have identified God with the Pagan gods.
The crucifixion was the result of angry men and demons hating a loving God.

If God were angry he wouldn't have sought and brought Adam and Eve promises and gifts
If God were angry he wouldn't have submitted to being murdered.

I don't think of God as angry. However, God must be just. Therefore God must punish sin. That is why Jesus took our punishment so we don't have to bear the punishment for our sins.

 

[quietthinker]

I don't think of God as angry. However, God must be just. Therefore God must punish sin. That is why Jesus took our punishment so we don't have to bear the punishment for our sins.

Forgiveness is a gift (grace) does not require payment . It comes from the heart of the giver.
1 Corinthians 13:5 tells us that love holds no record of wrongs.
Romans 3:24 tells us we are justified freely by his Grace.

Men interpret 'justice' as a kind of revenge or pay back. God's justice is anything but that; his justice is liberating the oppressed, letting the prisoners go free. All humanity are prisoners of Satan and are oppressed in various forms.

Yes, Jesus took our punishment. We punished him because we hated his purity and he took it without complaint.
God didn't punish him. God gave him strength to bear our punishment of him.

In the Gethsemane just before the mob arrested him, he prayed to his Father (John 17) It is not a prayer to a Father who will punish him as many assume. It's well worth the read.

 

[Debp]

Yes, Jesus took our punishment. We punished him because we hated his purity and he took it without complaint.
God didn't punish him. God gave him strength to bear our punishment of him.

It was God's plan for Jesus to pay the price for our sins. He is the second Adam who gives us life...whereas the first Adam through his disobedience gave us death.


11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’ Leviticus 17:11.

 

[GodsGrace]

Was the Cross Always Understood?

You’ve probably heard someone say, “Today we are saved by looking back to the cross, just like in time past everyone was saved by looking forward to the cross.”

Sounds spiritual. But is that true?

Did God say to Noah, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved”?
No—He told Noah: I’m going to flood the earth. Build an ark or you’ll drown.

Paul, in contrast, says in Acts 16,

Acts 16:30–31
“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”

Now look at 1 Corinthians 15:1–4.
Paul lays out the gospel clearly:

“Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day, according to the Scriptures.”

That’s the gospel Paul preached.

Now—did Peter and the Twelve understand and preach that gospel before the cross?

Look at Mark 9:31–32:

“He taught his disciples and said, The Son of Man shall be delivered, killed, and rise again the third day.
But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.”

Satan knew of the coming death and resurrection of Christ, even though the disciples didn't understand the cross—even though the Lord told them directly, face to face.

So can we honestly say “everyone before the cross understood it the same way we do today”?
No—they didn’t.

That’s not rightly dividing the Word of Truth. It’s just soft, unscriptural thinking deeply encased in human emotions.

What do they teach where you attend on Sunday?

BTW

Hi Before
The Apostles did not put everything that happened together until Paul came on the scene.
He studied the situation for 3 years before going to the Apostles with his findings.

I fight hard on these forums for the very reason you state above.
JESUS did not teach that all we need to do is be born again to go to heaven.
This idea came about with Paul but is in keeping with what Jesus said in John 3:3 and John 3:5
§"we must be born again in order to see the Kingdom of God".

But what Jesus meant by this and what Paul mean by this is certainly not what is taught in some churches today.

However, yes, Jesus is the Savior of everyone as John stated.
"of not us only, but for the whole world."
1 John 2:2

So even though the words did not exist at the time of Noah,,,,,
Jesus is still the Savior of those that required salvation...
those with faith and obedience to God.

So, if you'd care to elaborate on what your thinking....
a person could take your OP to have different meanings.

This is mine.

 

[quietthinker]

It was God's plan for Jesus to pay the price for our sins. He is the second Adam who gives us life...whereas the first Adam through his disobedience gave us death.


11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’ Leviticus 17:11.

Interpreting the NT by the OT has it back to front. We are to interpret the OT by the NT.

It was man who killed the lamb in the OT, not God. The lamb gave his life (blood) Yes, blood is a symbol for life for with out blood in us or animals we have no life. It does not mean that God requires blood. This idea came from the pagan world who were of the view that the gods were appeased by blood for its own sake.
The OT used blood as a symbol not as a substance that God is particularly fond of as the pagans thought.

Jesus gave his life, it wasn't extracted from him. John 10:18

 

[quietthinker]

You mean like universalism?

You love categorising don't you BBJ. It enables you to short circuit meaning and relieves you of the burden of thinking.....particularly when it comes to deciphering eternal mysteries.

Now let me see you reply to a section of my post here as is your habit (violating its context) because it suits your style.

 

[Lambano]

Was the Cross Always Understood?
It is still not understood today. Large slabs of the 'Christian' world see the cross as appeasing an angry God. They have identified God with the Pagan gods.

Do you not believe in the atoning work that Jesus accomplished on the cross?

A long time ago on a long-defunct forum, I got involved in a discussion about the Atonement initiated by a young man who had come to Christ from a Buddhist background. He loved Jesus and found peace in Him and His teachings, but he couldn't understand the Christian fixation on the Penal Substitution model of the Atonement. The animal sacrifices of the Old Testament are pretty primitive if you think about it (and most people don't). One of the other members had seen an actual Santeria sacrifice of a chicken in Haiti. Yuck. The idea of God being satisfied by human sacrifice was appalling. So, I got some books on the Atonement and dived in.

There are 6 theories of the Atonement: Penal Substitution, Ransom, Satisfaction, Governmental, Moral Exemplar, and Christus Victor. Plus a few fringe theories. Each model is grounded in the Bible. Each one has its problems. That tells me that even the biblical writers themselves struggled to find the meaning of the Cross in the light of the Resurrection.

If we focus only on Penal Substitution, we don't get the full picture, and I suspect there are aspects to the Cross we haven't even thought about. I don't think we understand the Cross at all. Much less do we know what it means to carry it.

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

It does not mean that God requires blood.

Mat 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

 

[quietthinker]

If we focus only on Penal Substitution, we don't get the full picture, and I suspect there are aspects to the Cross we haven't even thought about. I don't think we understand the Cross at all. Much less do we know what it means to carry it.

Here's a statement by EG White, 'The cross will be the science and the song of the redeemed throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity'
If we take this at face value I guess what we understand about the cross today is just the tip of an unfathomably big iceberg.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Was the Cross Always Understood?​

It is still not understood today. Large slabs of the 'Christian' world see the cross as appeasing an angry God. They have identified God with the Pagan gods.
The crucifixion was the result of angry men and demons hating a loving God.

If God were angry he wouldn't have sought and brought Adam and Eve promises and gifts
If God were angry he wouldn't have submitted to being murdered.

So, tell us...how much of a rat's petoot do you give in relation to what the world thinks about your beliefs? Do you really put any stock in what others think about you and your beliefs? Did you really understand what I even said in the OP above in context? I'm finding your comment difficult to track compared to the context of my post.

BTW