Learning about Orthodoxy

[Wynona]

I'm really grateful to those of you who gave provided testimonies, resources, and links.

I will continue reading them.

 

[Lizbeth]

I know I don't have authority amongst men as a female. Both by biblical mandate and because men just never took my arguments seriously. As a female, men just see me as someone needing to be taught.

I have no problem with this. I try to avoid arguing salvation doctrine for these reasons.

But I can say I think you and others are giving a knee-jerk reaction based on not knowing about Eastern Orthodoxy or their contribution to all of Christianity.

We don't need authority to have understanding sister. Or to simply discuss what we understand. Unless we think women are excluded from growing into the full stature of Christ....? Should we abdicate our free agency to men....but then I don't know how we can be helpmeets if we remain as children. We are to complement each other....as the women is not without the man, neither is the man without the woman.

I was told recently that I am mentally inferior because I'm a woman. (Gee, I never knew God was looking for mental superiority.) Lol, um, ok, then I will boast in my mental inferiority all the more so that God can be magnified, and His strength made perfect in my weakness. In truth my brain doesn't work so great at my age anyhow, so it's all good. More glory to God. :)

 

[David in NJ]

We don't need authority to have understanding sister. Or to simply discuss what we understand. Unless we think women are excluded from growing into the full stature of Christ....? Should we abdicate our free agency to men....but then I don't know how we can be helpmeets if we remain as children. We are to complement each other....as the women is not without the man, neither is the man without the woman.

I was told recently that I am mentally inferior because I'm a woman. (Gee, I never knew God was looking for mental superiority.) Lol, um, ok, then I will boast in my mental inferiority all the more so that God can be magnified, and His strength made perfect in my weakness. In truth my brain doesn't work so great at my age anyhow, so it's all good. More glory to God. :)

Lol, um, ok, then I will boast in my mental inferiority all the more so that God can be magnified, and His strength made perfect in my weakness. In truth my brain doesn't work so great at my age anyhow, so it's all good. More glory to God. :)

LOVED this

For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

 

[Lizbeth]

Wanna hear another dream i had .
AND you see how well even this dream applies to exactly what is going on around us all .
In the dream i was digging down deep and then i came up into a room
full of many peoples .
They were all talking and discussing things
and then i noticed a message on the TV
and i knew that danger was coming . SO i walked up to a man
and told him , THE church has TO get into the wilderness , we must flee to the wilderness
And all of a sudden the entire countenance of the mans face changed , as if wisdom itself
was alive in him
AND guess what he told me , THE CHURCH ALREADY IS IN THE WILDERNESS .
Ponder on that for a bit sister .
OH yeah , ITS TIME TO COME YE OUT and go outside the camp with JESUS into the wilderness .
That dream was so vivid . I had it years and years ago , i think around two thousand
and eight .

Amen, wow. It's very concerning for many. And may we not be tempted to go back to Egypt as some of them were getting weary of the wilderness and hankering for the leeks and onions of Egypt.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Those following the Lord and His Truth have no issues standing in the fire of disagreement because they know the Lord stands up for His Own Word and those following Him aren't bothered at all if other people disagree with God's Word.

Matthew 7:6
KJ21
“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Matthew 10:14​

​

New International Version​

​

14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.



I will say, I think you presence in this thread is extremely positive, but 180 degree different than you think. Basically people often act as foils for the things they fight against. And your arguing out of your ignorance does much more to help me than I could do by myself. So, thank you for that. :)

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Matthew 7:6
KJ21
“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Yeah, you're right - I should quit trying to help those who have fallen in to the deception of "orthodoxy" by talking about God's Word.

And your arguing out of your ignorance

I'm speaking from the view point of God's Word, scripture so of course those claiming to be "orthodox" who admittedly accept ungodly teachings that come from outside of God's Word would claim those not in agreement with their extra biblical beliefs as being "ignorant"

It's funny that you people don't want to talk about your extra biblical beliefs which demonstrates the Whole Counsel of God is not accepted in so called "orthodox" churches which will end very badly for these folks.

 

[Wynona]

We don't need authority to have understanding sister.

I don't necessarily think authority and understanding are the same thing.

I used to argue Scripture and Doctrine all the time. I just never actually convinced anyone they were wrong and the men just naturally saw me as someone to teach. They weren't always correct. But it's up to men to teach doctrine, so I'm letting go.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I

Yeah, you're right - I should quit trying to help those who have fallen in to the deception of "orthodoxy" by talking about God's Word.






I'm speaking from the view point of God's Word, scripture so of course those claiming to be "orthodox" who admittedly accept ungodly teachings that come from outside of God's Word would claim those not in agreement with their extra biblical beliefs as being "ignorant"

It's funny that you people don't want to talk about your extra biblical beliefs which demonstrates the Whole Counsel of God is not accepted in so called "orthodox" churches which will end very badly for these folks.

For the most part, I don't believe there is truly something that is extrabiblical. When folks claim that it is usually based on a perception and not on the totality of the Bible and all the customs and spiritual principles that can be derived from scripture. I have seen this time and time again no matter what the topic is whether it is Mary, Iconography, Call No Man Father, etc. There often is more going on than just the stuff being brought up by the Protestant.


Probably the best way I can relate this is to compare this to Theories of the US Constitution. There are all kinds of theories and ways of seeing the US Constitution that claim to be Constitutional. I am an Originalist in my take on both Christianity and the American Constitution but even in that basic orientation there are some big differences on "What the Founding Fathers intended" on principle, "Strict Constructionism" etc.

Constitutional theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But as I have pointed out before if you study Church history most groups including heretical groups have a reverence for the Bible and are trying to follow its principles etc. Gnostic Sects, Manicheans, New Agers, and maybe Voodoo being the exception to the rule.


I have already mentioned Snake handling Pentecostals as a vivid example of how a proof text can be used, misused and abused. I will note in passing another one, namely Arianism. Now we cannot really discuss this topic due to terms of service issues but I am going to note in passing one issue of "being biblical", namely that of Proof texting (throwing out a dramatic sounding Bible verse as a gotcha thing vs. the opposite where your position is actually based on a empirical study of the Bible. There is a big difference between the two! Many Protestants like yourself and the ancient Arians tended to be proof texters, while the rest of ancient Christianity were more on the empirical end of things, that if you tied it with other things related to Church history etc.

And by the way things are not just about Tradition, there are other ones as well related to the Church as a Body that is led by the Holy Spirit. I am especially talking about terms like "Binding and Loosening" etc. mentioned in the Bible, "Things being established in the presence of two or three witnesses, and the fact that the disciples actually mentored the first bishops. Christianity is more that the Bible and Me under a Tree, it is actually a group and corporate thing per scripture and that is a fact!

BINDING AND LOOSING - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

www.jewishencyclopedia.com

 

[Pavel Mosko]

PS (edit) I just noticed that Trinitarianism is a topic that now can be talked about once again on the board. That actually is good because of what was mentioned previously regarding the proof texting of Arians.

Maximinus’s Final Discourse (From His Debate With Augustine)

The debate between Augustine and Maximinus is well worth reading in full (see here). That will provide the reader with the larger context of this discourse, which is useful for understanding it. Bu…

nicenefaith.wordpress.com

(new edit)
This is a better link for the scholars that want the full debate. The above link is pro Arian and naturally I'm Trinitarian. It however does make a point, I have tried to make on "Proof texting). The Arians were good debaters because proof texting can be powerful based on how a verse sounds in one language or another. But this is different than other kinds of study like Greek Grammar where Ontology is implied more subtly and intellectually. Besides all this there is the issue of harmonization of the text where you got other verses saying the opposite etc.

https://wesleyscholar.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Augustine-Arian-Other-Heresies-1995.pdf

This famous debate of saint Augustine's is very interesting. Maximinus rails against tradition because of Augustine's Trinitarianism. It is however interesting the things what Maximinus accepts as "scriptural" without question from his actual Arian heritage (historically speaking )namely the bishop, presbyter, deacon hierarchical system, sacraments, including a non-symbolic/ token view of Holy Communion. But other than that you might think he was some kind of Anabaptist, or other Radical Reformation Protestant.


I will also say that Maximinus view of what Scriptural is not unique to him. I see this all the time. I have argued with Protestants on all kinds of stuff when they want to be hawkish on some issue but very open minded on some issue the ancient church was dead set against.
But anyway there is an aspect where the Bible is a bit of a Rorschach Inkblot test, folks see all kinds of stuff in various passages. This is really why Christianity is supposed to be Confessional and historical.


1 Timothy 3:15
KJ21
but if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou ought to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 - Bible Gateway​

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions and instructions which you were taught by us, whether by our word of mouth or by letter

 

[Lizbeth]

I

For the most part, I don't believe there is truly something that is extrabiblical. When folks claim that it is usually based on a perception and not on the totality of the Bible and all the customs and spiritual principles that can be derived from scripture. I have seen this time and time again no matter what the topic is whether it is Mary, Iconography, Call No Man Father, etc. There often is more going on than just the stuff being brought up by the Protestant.


Probably the best way I can relate this is to compare this to Theories of the US Constitution. There are all kinds of theories and ways of seeing the US Constitution that claim to be Constitutional. I am an Originalist in my take on both Christianity and the American Constitution but even in that basic orientation there are some big differences on "What the Founding Fathers intended" on principle, "Strict Constructionism" etc.

Constitutional theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But as I have pointed out before if you study Church history most groups including heretical groups have a reverence for the Bible and are trying to follow its principles etc. Gnostic Sects, Manicheans, New Agers, and maybe Voodoo being the exception to the rule.


I have already mentioned Snake handling Pentecostals as a vivid example of how a proof text can be used, misused and abused. I will note in passing another one, namely Arianism. Now we cannot really discuss this topic due to terms of service issues but I am going to note in passing one issue of "being biblical", namely that of Proof texting (throwing out a dramatic sounding Bible verse as a gotcha thing vs. the opposite where your position is actually based on a empirical study of the Bible. There is a big difference between the two! Many Protestants like yourself and the ancient Arians tended to be proof texters, while the rest of ancient Christianity were more on the empirical end of things, that if you tied it with other things related to Church history etc.

And by the way things are not just about Tradition, there are other ones as well related to the Church as a Body that is led by the Holy Spirit. I am especially talking about terms like "Binding and Loosening" etc. mentioned in the Bible, "Things being established in the presence of two or three witnesses, and the fact that the disciples actually mentored the first bishops. Christianity is more that the Bible and Me under a Tree, it is actually a group and corporate thing per scripture and that is a fact!

BINDING AND LOOSING - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

www.jewishencyclopedia.com

Where is the simple teaching of Jesus in all this.......truth is still hid from the wise and learned and revealed to little children, who we must become as to enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Where is the simple teaching of Jesus in all this.......truth is still hid from the wise and learned and revealed to little children, who we must become as to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Oh, it's there. It is only because of people like you and Big Boy that the elaborate explanations exist from people like me. If you don't like them, then you should stop being a critic of the Faith, because in all actuality this is one of those Shoe Should Be On the other Foot situations.

 

[Lizbeth]

I

For the most part, I don't believe there is truly something that is extrabiblical. When folks claim that it is usually based on a perception and not on the totality of the Bible and all the customs and spiritual principles that can be derived from scripture. I have seen this time and time again no matter what the topic is whether it is Mary, Iconography, Call No Man Father, etc. There often is more going on than just the stuff being brought up by the Protestant.


Probably the best way I can relate this is to compare this to Theories of the US Constitution. There are all kinds of theories and ways of seeing the US Constitution that claim to be Constitutional. I am an Originalist in my take on both Christianity and the American Constitution but even in that basic orientation there are some big differences on "What the Founding Fathers intended" on principle, "Strict Constructionism" etc.

Constitutional theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But as I have pointed out before if you study Church history most groups including heretical groups have a reverence for the Bible and are trying to follow its principles etc. Gnostic Sects, Manicheans, New Agers, and maybe Voodoo being the exception to the rule.


I have already mentioned Snake handling Pentecostals as a vivid example of how a proof text can be used, misused and abused. I will note in passing another one, namely Arianism. Now we cannot really discuss this topic due to terms of service issues but I am going to note in passing one issue of "being biblical", namely that of Proof texting (throwing out a dramatic sounding Bible verse as a gotcha thing vs. the opposite where your position is actually based on a empirical study of the Bible. There is a big difference between the two! Many Protestants like yourself and the ancient Arians tended to be proof texters, while the rest of ancient Christianity were more on the empirical end of things, that if you tied it with other things related to Church history etc.

And by the way things are not just about Tradition, there are other ones as well related to the Church as a Body that is led by the Holy Spirit. I am especially talking about terms like "Binding and Loosening" etc. mentioned in the Bible, "Things being established in the presence of two or three witnesses, and the fact that the disciples actually mentored the first bishops. Christianity is more that the Bible and Me under a Tree, it is actually a group and corporate thing per scripture and that is a fact!

BINDING AND LOOSING - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

www.jewishencyclopedia.com

We should also realize that the scattering of the (true) sheep is scriptural.....God holds the false shepherds (wolves and hirelings) to account for that. And as Paul said wolves would come in not sparing the flock after he departed. What happens then.....the true sheep scatter, once they wise up or grow up enough. Jesus said He sends us out as sheep among wolves....it seems to become part of testing and trying and growing up those who are His.

The only church fathers I recognize are the original apostles...they are the ones who begat the church under Christ and only their teachings are part of the rock solid foundation (along with the prophets and OT saints)........Paul said, "ye have not many fathers".

 

[David in NJ]

I

For the most part, I don't believe there is truly something that is extrabiblical. When folks claim that it is usually based on a perception and not on the totality of the Bible and all the customs and spiritual principles that can be derived from scripture. I have seen this time and time again no matter what the topic is whether it is Mary, Iconography, Call No Man Father, etc. There often is more going on than just the stuff being brought up by the Protestant.


Probably the best way I can relate this is to compare this to Theories of the US Constitution. There are all kinds of theories and ways of seeing the US Constitution that claim to be Constitutional. I am an Originalist in my take on both Christianity and the American Constitution but even in that basic orientation there are some big differences on "What the Founding Fathers intended" on principle, "Strict Constructionism" etc.

Constitutional theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But as I have pointed out before if you study Church history most groups including heretical groups have a reverence for the Bible and are trying to follow its principles etc. Gnostic Sects, Manicheans, New Agers, and maybe Voodoo being the exception to the rule.


I have already mentioned Snake handling Pentecostals as a vivid example of how a proof text can be used, misused and abused. I will note in passing another one, namely Arianism. Now we cannot really discuss this topic due to terms of service issues but I am going to note in passing one issue of "being biblical", namely that of Proof texting (throwing out a dramatic sounding Bible verse as a gotcha thing vs. the opposite where your position is actually based on a empirical study of the Bible. There is a big difference between the two! Many Protestants like yourself and the ancient Arians tended to be proof texters, while the rest of ancient Christianity were more on the empirical end of things, that if you tied it with other things related to Church history etc.

And by the way things are not just about Tradition, there are other ones as well related to the Church as a Body that is led by the Holy Spirit. I am especially talking about terms like "Binding and Loosening" etc. mentioned in the Bible, "Things being established in the presence of two or three witnesses, and the fact that the disciples actually mentored the first bishops. Christianity is more that the Bible and Me under a Tree, it is actually a group and corporate thing per scripture and that is a fact!

BINDING AND LOOSING - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

www.jewishencyclopedia.com

Sounds Great - keep going and share more

Pick a topic and expound

READY - SET - GO

 

[David in NJ]

We should also realize that the scattering of the (true) sheep is scriptural.....God holds the false shepherds (wolves and hirelings) to account for that. And as Paul said wolves would come in not sparing the flock after he departed. What happens then.....the true sheep scatter, once they wise up or grow up enough. Jesus said He sends us out as sheep among wolves....it seems to become part of testing and trying and growing up those who are His.

The only church fathers I recognize are the original apostles...they are the ones who begat the church under Christ and only their teachings are part of the rock solid foundation (along with the prophets and OT saints)........Paul said, "ye have not many fathers".

The only church fathers I recognize are the original apostles

We must be RELATED!!! = by BLOOD and SPIRIT

You are the only other person beside myself that holds to this Truth = that i know of = maybe @amigo de christo as well

 

[Lizbeth]

Oh, it's there. It is only because of people like you and Big Boy that the elaborate explanations exist from people like me. If you don't like them, then you should stop being a critic of the Faith, because in all actuality this is one of those Shoe Should Be On the other Foot situations.

I just know and observe that overthinking things leads astray. The carnal mind is enmity with God, and the natural man can't perceive the things of the Spirit. God's word has a way of avoiding the complex mazes of men's thinking and going directly to the heart of every matter in a simple way, if we have ears to hear and receive it. His wisdom is true wisdom, not like the wisdom of man.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

We should also realize that the scattering of the (true) sheep is scriptural.....God holds the false shepherds (wolves and hirelings) to account for that. And as Paul said wolves would come in not sparing the flock after he departed. What happens then.....the true sheep scatter, once they wise up or grow up enough. Jesus said He sends us out as sheep among wolves....it seems to become part of testing and trying and growing up those who are His.

The only church fathers I recognize are the original apostles...they are the ones who begat the church under Christ and only their teachings are part of the rock solid foundation (along with the prophets and OT saints)........Paul said, "ye have not many fathers".

ug

Christ promised to "build his Church and the Gates of Hell would not prevail against it". If what you believe is true it would mean that God did not keep his Word for 75% of the History of the Church and that is not what the Bible says.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Sounds Great - keep going and share more

Pick a topic and expound

READY - SET - GO

Not really needed. There are already good Orthodox Biblical Apologetics out there for any objection Protestants can raise.
For example, I like this one on Infant Baptism.

Infant Baptism: What the Church Believes

by Fr. John Hainsworth Every night my family gathers around the dinner table. We pray, dish out the food, laugh, argue, and ask and answer questions. The scene is sometimes chaotic, sometimes serious, sometimes silly, but this scene defines our family. This table becomes the heart of our family...

www.greekorthodox-norwich.com

This bit of Conversation reminds me of one I had with an online friend Calvinist pastor on Facebook. Both of us met from another online Calvinist friend Myles Christian of Answering Adventism YouTube channel. One day I was asking "Thunder Lauriston" on when he was going to make an appearance on Myles channel, or on one of the Facebook groups of former Adventists online. Thunder is very well spoken, insightful and humorous and I enjoyed watching him on video and reading his comments and even listening to his Caribbean accent. So, one day when I saw him online and posting a picture online I liked it and gave a comment that I missed him and his input on one of the Facebook groups I sometimes frequented. He was touched by that but said "That debating Adventists wasn't something he really did anymore." And he informed me that he was a new pastor of a new church in the Carribean "and didn't have time for it". Now none of that was news to me, I saw him posting his updates and was not surprised at the fact he would be too busy in the immediate present and future. What I was surprised at was his elaboration that he spent years arguing with Adventists online, "that it isn't very profitable" and that he essentially had better things to do with his time. This is because Thunder had got his start as a Seventh Day Adventist Evangelist, before seeing the light so to speak in his last year of Seminary. Thunder has written very elaborate Apologetics books against the Seventh Day Adventist position on Sabbath and Sunday. I believe he has a Ph.D. in theology, Biblical studies or some other discipline. He also was instrumental helping his friend Myles get his channel online as well. But I understood his answer, it was straight out of the book of Proverbs.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Apparently the so called "orthodox" church believes anyone that is not a member of the so called "orthodox" church is dammed to hell because they believe their denomination is the only true "church"

So for those that have not joined the so called "orthodox" church, you are on your way to hell!

 

[Lizbeth]

ug

Christ promised to "build his Church and the Gates of Hell would not prevail against it". If what you believe is true it would mean that God did not keep his Word for 75% of the History of the Church and that is not what the Bible says.

Yes, the gates of hell will not prevail against HIS church. Which is not the same thing as churches made with hands of man. His kingdom comes not with observation that you may say lo here it is or there.

 

[David in NJ]

Apparently the so called "orthodox" church believes anyone that is not a member of the so called "orthodox" church is dammed to hell because they believe their denomination is the only true "church"

So for those that have not joined the so called "orthodox" church, you are on your way to hell!

Across the street from the 'Orthodox church' are the Seventh Day Adventists with the same claim

Next to them on the same street are the jahovee whitless and next to them is the synagogue and next to them is a mosque