The "watch rapture view"

[covenantee]

They are the builders just like us. What temple did they build who have rejected the cornerstone OF THAT BUILDING? Who was the cornerstone of thst building before the fall at the cross?

Unlike the True Church, never were they described as spiritual stones.

There is only One Builder of the True Church, and He is Christ. Matthew 16:18, 1 Corinthians 3:9

 

[Davy]

While I somewhat agree with you about some of this, the following undeniably proves that Luke 21:20-23 is pertaining to the first century leading up to 70 AD---and shall be led away captive into all nations(Luke 21:24).

Not correct, only a portion of what Jesus covered in Luke 21 involved events back in the 1st century A.D.

The not one stone atop another prophecy was also given in Christ's Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13. And the prophecy was never completely fulfilled. To this day there are still huge stones from the old temple complex standing in Jerusalem, called the Wailing Wall. And... the Muslim Dome of The Rock built with stones also is standing on the temple mount today. These FACTS signal only a PARTIAL FULFILLMENT of the not one stone atop another prophecy by Jesus.

But the devil and his servants definitely want... us to believe all of Christ's Olivet discourse Scripture has already been fulfilled back in 70 A.D., simply because that's a way to prevent Christ's servants from obeying His command for us to be 'watching' at the end of this world, as those SIGNS Jesus gave there are for the END of this world.

How does the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple fit in though? The not one stone atop another prophecy serves as a DUAL FULFILLMENT type prophecy. And if you don't know how God's Word includes 'dual' prophetic events, then maybe you need more Old Testament Bible study.

The following Scripture is about the last day, the "day of the Lord" when the tribulation will be ended with Lord Jesus' coming...

Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
KJV

"That all things which are written may be fulfilled"? That's definitely NOT about 70 A.D. That is about the very END of this world with Christ's future 2nd coming. At Lord Jesus' future return is when all things written regarding this present world, will be fulfilled.

In Luke 4 when Jesus began His Ministry, He read from the Book of Isaiah 61:1-2, but He closed the Book before He got to the Isaiah 61:2 phrase, "... and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;...". Reason He stopped and did not read that is because last phrase is for His future 2nd coming, His return.

And that... is what the timing of the above Luke 21:20-22 Scripture is about.

 

[Davidpt]

Not correct, only a portion of what Jesus covered in Luke 21 involved events back in the 1st century A.D.

The not one stone atop another prophecy was also given in Christ's Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13. And the prophecy was never completely fulfilled. To this day there are still huge stones from the old temple complex standing in Jerusalem, called the Wailing Wall. And... the Muslim Dome of The Rock built with stones also is standing on the temple mount today. These FACTS signal only a PARTIAL FULFILLMENT of the not one stone atop another prophecy by Jesus.

But the devil and his servants definitely want... us to believe all of Christ's Olivet discourse Scripture has already been fulfilled back in 70 A.D., simply because that's a way to prevent Christ's servants from obeying His command for us to be 'watching' at the end of this world, as those SIGNS Jesus gave there are for the END of this world.

How does the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple fit in though? The not one stone atop another prophecy serves as a DUAL FULFILLMENT type prophecy. And if you don't know how God's Word includes 'dual' prophetic events, then maybe you need more Old Testament Bible study.

The following Scripture is about the last day, the "day of the Lord" when the tribulation will be ended with Lord Jesus' coming...

Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
KJV

"That all things which are written may be fulfilled"? That's definitely NOT about 70 A.D. That is about the very END of this world with Christ's future 2nd coming. At Lord Jesus' future return is when all things written regarding this present world, will be fulfilled.

In Luke 4 when Jesus began His Ministry, He read from the Book of Isaiah 61:1-2, but He closed the Book before He got to the Isaiah 61:2 phrase, "... and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;...". Reason He stopped and did not read that is because last phrase is for His future 2nd coming, His return.

And that... is what the timing of the above Luke 21:20-22 Scripture is about.

Let's try and meet somewhere in the middle then. Maybe the following is what Jesus was ultimately meaning, which, BTW, hasn't been fulfilled yet.

Ezekiel 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.


The text says every wall, not just 'some walls' but not other walls, it says every wall. Is the Wailing wall a wall? Of course it is, obviously. Will it still remain standing when verse 20 is fulfilled? Of course not, obviously.

 

[Douggg]

The following Scripture is about the last day, the "day of the Lord" when the tribulation will be ended with Lord Jesus' coming...

Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
KJV

"That all things which are written may be fulfilled"? That's definitely NOT about 70 A.D. That is about the very END of this world with Christ's future 2nd coming. At Lord Jesus' future return is when all things written regarding this present world, will be fulfilled.

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Davy, verse 22 is referring to all things written about the destruction of the city (Jerusalem) in Daniel 9:26.

@Davidpt was correct that verse 21-23 led up to the destruction of the city (Jerusalem) 70ad. And that verse 24 was about the Jews being led away captives into all nations.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The Jews were led away captive into all nations, and a big portion of the Jews are still in the nations all around the world.

Jerusalem has been under Gentile control until 1967, when the Jews regained possession of Jerusalem. As the time of the Gentile control of Jerusalem ended in 1967. So verse 24 is long term.

Here are the verses of the Luke 21 parallel to the Olivet Discourse, where they fit.

 

[Davy]

Let's try and meet somewhere in the middle then. Maybe the following is what Jesus was ultimately meaning, which, BTW, hasn't been fulfilled yet.

A warning: I don't compromise the simplicity of written Bible Scripture. That doesn't mean I fully understand all Scripture, it simply means the simply written Scripture there is no excuse to reject it as written.

Ezekiel 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.


The text says every wall, not just 'some walls' but not other walls, it says every wall. Is the Wailing wall a wall? Of course it is, obviously. Will it still remain standing when verse 20 is fulfilled? Of course not, obviously.

Yes, that is correct. The mountains and hills will shake on that "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns, and the islands will be moved.

That is what the days of vengeance is about in Luke 21, because of that phrase, "... that all things which are written may be fulfilled."

Thus the greater fulfillment of the not one stone atop another won't be just for the structures at the temple mount, but for the whole earth. See also the end of Hebrews 12.

 

[Davy]

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Davy, verse 22 is referring to all things written about the destruction of the city (Jerusalem) in Daniel 9:26.

No, no, no. Luke 21:22 is about the last phrase of the Isaiah 61:2 verse which Jesus closed the Book before He got to it, because that day of vengeance is about His future 2nd coming. Only His 1st coming was fulfilled when He read from Isaiah 61:1 and the first phrase of verse 2.

And to believe what you are saying means you have LEFT... the simplicity of that Luke 21:22 Scripture when it says, "... that all things which are written may be fulfilled." That is nowhere giving a reference about 70 A.D., it is a reference about ALL THINGS WRITTEN being fulfilled. What all things? All Bible prophecy for this PRESENT WORLD TIME. That is when God's vengeance upon this present world is going to happen, i.e., on the day of Christ's future coming.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There are only 3.5 years left in the 70th week of Daniel. The one year of wrath in Isaiah 34 is part of those 3.5 years.

I think the beast of the earth comes to power first as the 7th king who gives His power to the eighth king, the beast of the sea. The beast of the earth causes the world to worship the eighth king

3.5 years for the two witnesses.
3.5 years for the Antichrist.
3.5 left in the 70th week of Daniel.

These are three timelines. They are not all the same period of time. They overlap, but all begin at a different point in time.

Well I cannot argue with allegorical opinions because they are just what you think but do not have a solid basis in Scripture.

As for the 3.5 years, we do not know the start and finish of the two witnesses. We make best guesses which we shouldn't do.

But the antichrist and the last half of the 70th week are the same as per Daniel 9 and REv. 11-13

 

[Douggg]

And to believe what you are saying means you have LEFT... the simplicity of that Luke 21:22 Scripture when it says, "... that all things which are written may be fulfilled." That is nowhere giving a reference about 70 A.D., it is a reference about ALL THINGS WRITTEN being fulfilled. What all things? All Bible prophecy for this PRESENT WORLD TIME. That is when God's vengeance upon this present world is going to happen, i.e., on the day of Christ's future coming.

Luke 21:20 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Davy, verse 20 says that Jerusalem will be made desolate.

Verse 20 cannot be referring to the end times that we presently live - because Jesus is returning to Jerusalem, that will be full of people and activity.
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22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

The days of vengeance in verse 22 is referring to the vengeance that the Romans took out on the Jews who were rebelling against Roman rule and occupancy. The Romans in their vengeance destroyed Jerusalem and the temple - as written in Daniel 9:26.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Unlike the True Church, never were they described as spiritual stones.

There is only One Builder of the True Church, and He is Christ. Matthew 16:18, 1 Corinthians 3:9

Of course. But you only answered one of the two questions. So let me ask again: What temple did the Jews—as the builders—build, with Christ as the cornerstone, even before the fall? Hmm? What building was it that had the stone the Jews rejected? Was Christ a literal stone? No? Then the Jewish builders weren’t literal stones either. They were spiritual stones of the Old Testament congregation that had fallen.

 

[covenantee]

Of course. But you only answered one of the two questions. So let me ask again: What temple did the Jews—as the builders—build, with Christ as the cornerstone, even before the fall? Hmm? What building was it that had the stone the Jews rejected? Was Christ a literal stone? No? Then the Jewish builders weren’t literal stones either. They were spiritual stones of the Old Testament congregation that had fallen.

The True Church of God is described in cited Scriptures as spiritual stones.

In Matthew 24:2 et al, stones are destroyed.

But the True Church was not and will never be destroyed.

Thus Matthew 24:2 does not refer to the spiritual stones of the True Church.

It refers to the physical stones of the physical temple.

Destroyed in 70 AD.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The True Church of God is identified in cited Scriptures as spiritual stones.

In Matthew 24:2 et al, stones are destroyed.

But the True Church was not and will never be destroyed.

Thus Matthew 24:2 does not refer to the spiritual stones of the True Church.

It refers to the physical stones of the temple.

Destroyed in 70 AD.

Nope.

The True Church—made up of chosen Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ—is built with spiritual stones that will never fall. These are the faithful from both the Old and New Testaments. In God’s eyes, they are gold, silver, and precious stones, enduring and eternal. Together they are one True Church of Christ, the bride of Christ.

But there is another group: those who profess to believe but are not truly saved—unfaithful Jews and Gentiles alike. They are the wood, hay, and stubble—spiritual stones that have fallen. The Jews fell first at the Cross. The Gentiles will fall at the end.

Matthew 24:2 is not about the physical destruction of the temple in 70 AD. It speaks of the spiritual fall of unfaithful Israel—the Old Testament congregation—whose rejection of Christ sealed their judgment. The kingdom was taken from them at the Cross, not from literal temple stones, but from the rebellious people who were meant to represent God. And in three days, just as Christ said, it was handed over to the New Testament Church, the true spiritual temple.

Selah!

 

[covenantee]

Nope.

The True Church—made up of chosen Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ—is built with spiritual stones that will never fall. These are the faithful from both the Old and New Testaments. In God’s eyes, they are gold, silver, and precious stones, enduring and eternal. Together they are one True Church of Christ, the bride of Christ.

But there is another group: those who profess to believe but are not truly saved—unfaithful Jews and Gentiles alike. They are the wood, hay, and stubble—spiritual stones that have fallen. The Jews fell first at the Cross. The Gentiles will fall at the end.

Matthew 24:2 is not about the physical destruction of the temple in 70 AD. It speaks of the spiritual fall of unfaithful Israel—the Old Testament congregation—whose rejection of Christ sealed their judgment. The kingdom was taken from them at the Cross, not from literal temple stones, but from the rebellious people who were meant to represent God. And in three days, just as Christ said, it was handed over to the New Testament Church, the true spiritual temple.

Selah!

Nothing to do with Jews and Gentiles. Israel was comprised of both throughout its history. God is not a racist. He has never dealt with individuals according to their DNA, but rather according to whether they are or are not in faithful obedient covenant relationship with Him.

Those who are not are fallen.

Those who are, are the spiritual stones of His True Church.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Nothing to do with Jews and Gentiles.

Oh yes!

God is not a racist.

LOL. No one here said He is.

He has never dealt with individuals according to their DNA

Huh?! DNA. What are you talking about?! Where did your get this from.

, but rather according to whether they are or are not in faithful obedient covenant relationship with Him.

And? I said they are choosen Elect.

Those who are not are fallen.

Where did I said the chosen are fallen?

Those who are, are the spiritual stones of His True Church.

So were the Jewish Elect of the Old Testament. They are part of one covenant tree.

Do you really read what I wrote carefully?

 

[covenantee]

Oh yes!

Not.

LOL. No one here said He is.

Then stop racializing Him.

Huh?! DNA. What are you talking about?! Where did your get this from.

I got it from "seed" in Genesis 17:12. Would you prefer I use that instead of "DNA"?

And? I said they are choosen Elect.

How did they become the chosen Elect?

Where did I said the chosen are fallen?

The fallen are not chosen. The faithful obedient are.

So were the Jewish Elect of the Old Testament.

The OT Elect were both Jews and Gentiles in faithful obedient covenant relationship with God.

Do you really read what I wrote carefully?

Do you understand what you write?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Not.

Then stop racializing Him.

I got it from "seed" in Genesis 17:12. Would you prefer I use that instead of "DNA"?

How did they become the chosen Elect?

The fallen are not chosen. The faithful obedient are.

The OT Elect were both Jews and Gentiles in faithful obedient covenant relationship with God.

Do you understand what you write?

You have no clue what you are talking about. You don't even know how the Old Testament Elect was chosen. It's in the Scripture so that will be your homework.

I am done for the day.

Good night!

 

[covenantee]

You don't even know how the Old Testament Elect was chosen.

Faith and obedience. Same as the NT Elect.

Ever hear of those?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Faith and obedience. Same as the NT Elect.

Ever hear of those?

I said it is in the Scripture, and it is your homework to find it. Chapters and verses on how OT Saints became Elect.

 

[covenantee]

I said it is in the Scripture, and it is your homework to find it. Chapters and verses on how OT Saints became Elect.

Romans 1
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Hebrews 5
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Hebrews 11
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Hebrews 11
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You're making a shallow assumption by claiming that Jesus was merely referring to the physical stones of the temple buildings in Matthew 24:1–2, as if that were the central focus of His prophetic warning. But that interpretation misses the deeper spiritual truth He was declaring. When Jesus said, “There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down,” He wasn’t simply speaking about Herod’s temple or even the destruction of the city itself — He was symbolically referring to the people of the Old Testament congregation. They were the "stones" being cast down, representing the fall of a covenantal system that had rejected its Messiah.

Of course, the disciples, still operating with an Old Covenant mindset and without the full enlightenment of the Holy Spirit (which came at Pentecost), misunderstood Him and assumed He meant the literal temple structure. That’s why they asked, “When shall these things be?” Their question revealed their confusion, not Jesus’ intent.

Christ’s prophecy in the first two verses of Matthew 24 was not merely about the destruction of a physical building, but about divine judgment upon His unfaithful Old Testament congregation. The rest of the Olivet Discourse shifts focus to the New Testament congregation, especially in the end times — when spiritual warfare intensifies.


The “wars and rumors of wars” speak to the ongoing conflict between the Word of God and the lies of Satan, delivered through their respective messengers. The “famines” and “pestilences” refer to spiritual droughts and spiritual sickenss where locusts strike men without seal of God within a rebellious house whose foundation has been shaken. It is in this context that the abomination of desolation is set up in the holy place — and on this side of the Cross, the only holy place is the New Testament Church, which received the kingdom after it was taken from Israel (Matthew 21:43). 70AD temple does NOT qualify, no matter how hard you try to defend it!


This has nothing to do with the physical destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. — period. Christ was pointing forward to a spiritual crisis within His Church, not backward to the fall of Jerusalem’s stones.

I'm sorry, what were you saying? Oh, the same old hyper-spiritualized nonsense. Got it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think you misunderstood Luke 21:22-24.

I think you misunderstand almost everything.

Yes, Luke these verses do speak of great judgment — but it’s not primarily about the physical destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. with many Jews being physically killed and held away captive into physical nations as you think.

Yes, it is. You try to turn simple things into a convoluted mess and it makes me feel sorry for you.

Rather, it's a prophecy of spiritual judgment upon the New Testament congregation — the visible Church — during the end times.

Nope. Ridiculous interpretation.

“Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck…” (Luke 21:23)

This is symbolic language. Those “with child” and “that give suck” represent people within the congregation — the Church — who are seeking spiritual nourishment or trying to raise up others in Truth, but can no longer find it.

LOL. This is just ludicrous. You have clearly decided that you are not on to take seriously, so I won't take you seriously. Let me know if you ever decide to not try to needlessly spiritualize every verse of scripture you come across.

Why? Because the Church (pictured as the woman) has become apostate, and truth is no longer being faithfully proclaimed within her walls. That is the woe — the spiritual famine in a once-holy place. When people are desire to be saved or seek one, but no longer find "death" in Christ in order to be saved. They does not realize it, but we see the signs of this when we obviosily see false prophts and christs ruling in their congregation with false doctrines and lying signs and wonders. Why?

Because it is the God's “Wrath upon this people…”

The church is only comprised of true believers. If someone is not a true believer then they are not in the church. There is a heavenly Jerusalem, which you apparently think Luke 21 is referring to, but that does not include any false prophets and false Christs. You are very confused.

This wrath is not upon national Israel or unbelieving Jews per se which it already took place at the Cross,

Do you just not believe in anything physical? Is there no such thing as physical wrath in your mind? I have to wonder if you believe that the flood in Noah's day was an actual physical flood of physical water that went over the entire physical earth. Do you believe that or not? It would not surprise me if you didn't. I wonder whether or not you believe that the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by physical fire? It would not surprise me if you did not even believe that. I think you need to join us in physical reality where physical things actually happen instead of thinking everything is spiritual.