Are you sending your neighbors to Hell?

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Kokyu

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What if that was caused by a translation error?
Are translation errors divinely inspired?

What if the verse I quoted contains a translation error? Does it? I don't know that it does. Do you?

One of the great things about how the Bible has been preserved to today is the vast number of ancient manuscript copies that exist of the Bible (and the NT, in particular). We don't have just one or two of these but many thousands! As a result, we can take a very large sampling of a particular verse and examine the way it most commonly appears in the ancient manuscript copies, and how it appears in the oldest copies, and come to a VERY high degree of certainty about what the original of the verse said.

This comparison analysis has been done with all of the NT by highly-qualified Bible scholars and so, I am very confident that the modern translations of these ancient manuscripts that I use are not suffering from some undiscovered copyist error.

Is God like a wild grizzly bear toward us?

No. Here's what I wrote again:

"The man who denies that there is a grizzly bear charging straight for him, does not, in his denial of the bear, prevent it from killing and devouring him. So, too, those who deny the existence of hell. Their denial does not dissolve hell. It's still there, waiting for all those who pretend a wrathful God does not exist, or will not condemn them to everlasting punishment."

I compared the charging grizzly bear to hell. They are similar in the terrible threat they represent. And just like denying the reality of the grizzly bear doesn't make it disappear, denying the reality of hell doesn't make it vanish, either.
 

St. SteVen

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What if the verse I quoted contains a translation error? Does it? I don't know that it does. Do you?
Glad you asked.

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" or "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" or "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)


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St. SteVen

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One of the great things about how the Bible has been preserved to today is the vast number of ancient manuscript copies that exist of the Bible (and the NT, in particular). We don't have just one or two of these but many thousands! As a result, we can take a very large sampling of a particular verse and examine the way it most commonly appears in the ancient manuscript copies, and how it appears in the oldest copies, and come to a VERY high degree of certainty about what the original of the verse said.
We assume the oldest is the best. (most original)
But that is not always the preference of translators.

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus – Textual Criticism 101

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus - Textual Criticism 101 - Berean Patriot

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St. SteVen

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This comparison analysis has been done with all of the NT by highly-qualified Bible scholars and so, I am very confident that the modern translations of these ancient manuscripts that I use are not suffering from some undiscovered copyist error.
One BIG problem is translator bias.
The western (Latin-speaking) Roman Church gave us our canon of scripture.
(which differs from their personal canon)

Th eastern (Greek-speaking) church however...

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

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St. SteVen

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I compared the charging grizzly bear to hell. They are similar in the terrible threat they represent. And just like denying the reality of the grizzly bear doesn't make it disappear, denying the reality of hell doesn't make it vanish, either.
Who created hell?


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Wick Stick

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Is God like a wild grizzly bear toward us?

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2nd Peter 3:9?
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering like a wild grizzly bear to us-ward, not willing that any should perish survive, but that all should come to repentance.

:confused It doesn't seem quite right to me
 

Kokyu

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Glad you asked.

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" or "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" or "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

Is aionios only ever translated as "age" or "this world" in Scripture? No. According to Strong's, this word in the KJV is translated as "eternal" forty-two times and as "everlasting" twenty-five times. The instances you cite above are, I think, all that there are in Scripture of aionios being translated as "age" or "this (present evil) world." It looks to me, therefore, that you're trying to establish the rule of what aionios means by its exceptions. In my experience, this is done only by those who are trying to find a loophole around a difficult doctrine in Scripture, who want to make Scripture say what they want it to say rather than simply accepting it as its written.

Vine's, Strong's and Thayer's Greek-to-English Lexicons all define aionios as a term meaning either "an undefined but not endless period of time," or "an undefined period of time because it is endless." All of these lexicons agree that Matthew 25:46 is an example of the latter meaning, not the former. Aionios is used in description of God's eternality (Ro. 16:26), His power (1 Ti. 6:16), of the Holy Spirit (He. 9:14), of the future rule of Christ (2 Pe. 1:11), and so on.

There is, then, no good reason that I can see for thinking that Matthew 25:46 is mistranslated. Only if I don't like what it says would I try to twist it's evident meaning into merely "an age." As I said, the parallel given in the verse is clearly violated if one wants to make eternal life truly eternal but eternal punishment only temporary. So, even within itself, the verse defies the idea that aionios refers to a finite span of time.

We assume the oldest is the best. (most original)
But that is not always the preference of translators.

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus – Textual Criticism 101

You'll notice that I gave two bases upon which the correct rendering of a verse is secured:

- the most common rendering across all available ancient manuscripts (i.e. the Majority Text).
- the oldest renderings of the verse.

I didn't indicate that only the "oldest is best."

One BIG problem is translator bias.

Not really. Today there have been many separate groups of translators that have worked upon a proper rendering of the Greek text of the NT into English. The RSV, the NIV, the NASB, the NKJV, etc., all had different translation committees, which has the same effect that the multitude of ancient manuscript copies has, providing a wide common consensus that counters an individual translator's, or a single translating committee's, bias.

So, no, the BIG problem isn't translator bias.

Who created hell?

The Creator.
 

St. SteVen

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It looks to me, therefore, that you're trying to establish the rule of what aionios means by its exceptions. In my experience, this is done only by those who are trying to find a loophole around a difficult doctrine in Scripture, who want to make Scripture say what they want it to say rather than simply accepting it as its written.
Since I believe in an Age of Restoration, I had to answer the dilemma that this verse poses.
Since aionios can mean an age, that answers the question. In reality, only God is eternal.

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

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St. SteVen

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Responsible? In what sense?
If anyone creates something, they are responsible for it.
Christians seem to understand that God created hell, but they make the inhabitants responsible for it.
They claim that God doesn't send anyone to hell, that they send themselves. Nonsense.

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Kokyu

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If anyone creates something, they are responsible for it.
Christians seem to understand that God created hell, but they make the inhabitants responsible for it.
They claim that God doesn't send anyone to hell, that they send themselves. Nonsense.

If a wood-carver makes a knife capable of carving wood, unavoidably he makes a knife capable of penetrating and cutting human flesh, too. His intent in making the knife is to make beautiful works of art out of pieces of wood, however, not to harm human beings. If his knife is stolen and used to murder someone, is the wood-carver guilty of murder? No.

In the same way, God has given us all free agency. His intent is that we would use our freedom to choose to know, love and walk with Him. But genuine free agency requires that we be free NOT to choose to love and walk with our Maker, too. If we decide not to walk with God, we do evil. Our evil choice is no more His fault, though, than it is the fault of the wood-carver that someone has used his knife for a purpose other than to create art from wood.

So, then, it isn't "nonsense" to reject the idea that if someone creates something, they're responsible for it. There are many instances in our own mundane human existence - like the one with the wood-carver - where creation does NOT entail responsibility. Ford Motor Company is not on the hook for murder if a drunk driver of one of its vehicles runs over a young boy and kills him. Levis Jeans has not murdered the woman who dies when her boyfriend uses a pair of her jeans to throttle her to death. The city in which I live is not culpable for murder if a despairing teenager throws himself off one of the many bridges the city has built. And so on.

In any case, I don't hold anyone but God responsible for making hell; but I do hold those in hell responsible for ending up in it. Lots of people go into a cafe near where I live. None of them are responsible for building the cafe, or outfitting the building as a cafe, of course, but every person in the cafe is there because they chose to go into it. It isn't the builder of the cafe, then, who bears responsibility for the presence of customers in the cafe. No one forced them to enter the cafe. So, too, hell and those who end up in it.
 
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Jack

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Perhaps the best evidence that
no one really believes in a forever-burning Hell.
ONLY God knows that. Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell!

Rev 20 They will be tormented day and night FOREVER ...
 

Jack

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"Are you sending your neighbors to Hell?"

If someone is telling them there is no Hell, yes they are! And they will be with them.
 
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St. SteVen

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St. SteVen

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New topic:


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nedsk

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Perhaps the best evidence that no one really believes in a forever-burning Hell.
Or that no one really loves their neighbors. Take your pick.

If you really loved your neighbors, and believed in a forever-burning Hell, you wouldn't send them there.

I can hear the reply coming now. "I didn't send them to Hell, they sent themselves there."
Did you do anything to stop them? Did you convince them otherwise?
Did you live a life that made Christ attractive? I see...

Fortunately for me, I don't believe in a forever-burning Hell. Not really my problem.
Do you believe in a forever-burning Hell? (nope) If you did...

Or maybe you don't really love your neighbors. Seems to go hand-in-hand.

--- PARODY ---

Judgement Day for a Christian neighbor.

God: Welcome to heaven.
Christian: Thanks. This is really great.
God: We have something we need to discuss.
Christian: What's that?
God: Do you remember Jesus telling you to love your neighbor as yourself?
Christian: That sounds familiar.
God: I planted you in a specific neighborhood to reach your neighbors with the good news.
Christian: You did?
God: Yes. Did you succeed, or fail?
Christian: I don't know any of my neighbors.
God: Why not?
Christian: They were all rotten sinners.
God: What were you before you met me?
Christian: Well... I err... not like them. !!!
God: I disagree.
Christian: I didn't send my neighbors to hell, it was their choice.
God: They didn't have a choice, because you failed neighbors them.
Christian: Couldn't they hear from someone else?
God: It was your job to tell them.

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You realize telling people something isn't the same as them heeding what you say to them right? If I say to someone look both ways before crossing the street and they don't look both ways before crossing the street and get run over by a car did I make them get run over by a care?
 

St. SteVen

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You realize telling people something isn't the same as them heeding what you say to them right? If I say to someone look both ways before crossing the street and they don't look both ways before crossing the street and get run over by a car did I make them get run over by a care?
In this case, God is the driver of the car.

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