When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?

[Douggg]

Whatever that might look like, he says. As if you have any idea of what the beast is. You can't even offer a guess. Why should anyone take you seriously at all about anything you say in relation to the beast?

The first beast in Revelation 13 represents the kingdom of the beast-king. The beast-king is the mortally wounded but healed head. Which in the rest of the text of Revelation the king is simply called "the beast".

The second beast in Revelation 13 is the false prophet.

Those two men will be cast alive into the lake of fire in Revelation 19:20 at Jesus's return.

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The mark of the beast will be a physical tattoo like imprintation in to the flesh of the right hand or forehead. As will be the number of the beast, 666, and the name of the beast-king.

 

[Douggg]

It's spiritually called Sodom and Egypt and Babylon because it has things in common with all three. You repeatedly fail to allow scripture to interpret scripture for you.

Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Babylon in Revelation 18 is talking about the mystical kingdom of Satan and his angels. Revelation 18 compares the fall of Satan's kingdom to that of a great trading city.

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

 

[Douggg]

The heavenly Jerusalem is the mother of us all (Galatians 4:26) while spiritual Babylon is the mother of all unbelievers.

Cite the bible verse that has "spiritual Babylon" in it that backs up your statement.

SPIRITUAL BABYLON IN THE BIBLE

See 'spiritual Babylon' instances in the King James Version (KJV).

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

SPIRITUAL ISRAELITE IN THE BIBLE

See 'spiritual Israelite' instances in the King James Version (KJV).

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The first beast in Revelation 13 represents the kingdom of the beast-king. The beast-king is the mortally wounded but healed head. Which in the rest of the text of Revelation the king is simply called "the beast".

The second beast in Revelation 13 is the false prophet.

Those two men will be cast alive into the lake of fire in Revelation 19:20 at Jesus's return.

We've had discussions before about the beast and your understanding is very convoluted. If I recall, you differentiate between the Revelation 13 beast with seven heads and ten horns and the Revelation 17 beast with seven heads and ten horns even though they are the same beast. You also have the ridiculous belief that what you call "the beast-king" is someone who is resurrected from the dead, which is just utterly ludicrous. It's not worth my time to talk to you about all that again.

The mark of the beast will be a physical tattoo imprinted in to the flesh of the right hand or forehead. As will be the number of the beast, 666, and the name of the beast-king.

Do you understand that those who have the mark of the beast end up in the lake of fire (Revelation 14:9-11)? That shows that it's a mark that indicates that someone is not saved and is lost.

How would a physical tattoo have anything to do with whether someone was saved or not? Do you think that people will be forced to have it? Again, those who have it end up in the lake of fire. It's related to salvation. No one can be forced to not be saved because of a physical mark. Salvation is a spiritual thing, not a physical thing. What is it that makes someone unsaved? A physical mark? No. That would never be the case. A person is unsaved when they refuse to repent of their sins and believe. So, what do you think is the relation between someone having a physical tattoo and being an unrepentant, unsaved person?

Do you think the seal of God that is in the foreheads of God's servants is a physical seal?

Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Babylon in Revelation 18 is talking about the mystical kingdom of Satan and his angels. Revelation 18 compares the fall of Satan's kingdom to that of a great trading city.

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Babylon is the great city in Revelation and therefore the great city of Revelation 11:8 also represent Babylon. The kingdom of Satan and his angels is the kingdom of this evil world and it deceives many people. Jesus was crucified in this world as a sacrifice for the sins of the world (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2). It was God's will that He be crucified outside of Jerusalem because He was sacrificing Himself for the whole world and not just for the Jews.

The reason that people around the world can see the bodies of the two witnesses lying in the street of the great city is because the great city is a global entity and the two witnesses represent the church. The two witnesses being symbolically dead represents the silencing of the preaching of the gospel by the church during the little season before Jesus returns, which is symbolically represented as 3.5 days. The gospel will be largely silenced during that time by all kinds of deception and false teaching because of the unrestrained wickedness that occurs during that time which results in the mass apostasy that Paul wrote about in 2 Thess 2:3-12.

 

[Douggg]

How would a physical tattoo have anything to do with whether someone was saved or not? Do you think that people will be forced to have it?

Taking the mark will be a matter of an individual's choice. There will be pressure to take the mark - because of the law that will be passed that to buy or sell, a person must have the mark of the beast, the number of the beast, the name of the beast.

Taking the mark, the number, or the name, likely will include signing an agreement to reject God and Jesus and all other forms of religion except that of worship of the beast-king. Requirement to sign such an agreement is of course speculation on my part. What do you think ? Do you think that may happen ?

 

[Douggg]

The reason that people around the world can see the bodies of the two witnesses lying in the street of the great city is because the great city is a global entity and the two witnesses represent the church. The two witnesses being symbolically dead represents the silencing of the preaching of the gospel by the church during the little season before Jesus returns, which is symbolically represented as 3.5 days. The gospel will be largely silenced during that time by all kinds of deception and false teaching because of the unrestrained wickedness that occurs during that time which results in the mass apostasy that Paul wrote about in 2 Thess 2:3-12.

Spiritualizing the two witnesses as being the church ? The church as being symbolically dead ? In a prior post you said the two witnesses are two churches, a Jewish church and Gentile church.

It is easy to understand why you can't, don't want to, make timeline charts.

 

[Douggg]

If I recall, you differentiate between the Revelation 13 beast with seven heads and ten horns and the Revelation 17 beast with seven heads and ten horns even though they are the same beast.

No, you recall incorrectly. The beast in all three chapters is the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7 - the Roman Empire.

Revelation 17 beast with the seven heads and ten horns is the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7 - the Roman Empire - it's status at the time of John, 1st century.

In Revelation 12, the fourth kingdom the Roman Empire (manifested in the end times as the EU) - its status with 7 years before Jesus returns. Revelation 12:6, the 1260 days, plus Revelation 12:14, the time/times/half time total the 7 years.

In Revelation 13, the fourth kingdom the Roman Empire (manifested in the end times as the EU) - its status with 42 months before Jesus returns. Revelation 13:5, the 42 months rule of the beast-king.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Revelation 17 (status first century)
7 heads - no crowns - the prophecy of the 7 kings incomplete. king 7 yet to come.
10 horns - no crowns - the prophecy of the 10 kings not started.

Revelation 12 (status with 7 years before Jesus's return)
7 heads - crowns - the prophecy of the 7 kings complete, king 7 the little horn person in power.
10 horns - no crowns - the prophecy of the 10 kings started, but no crowns since the little horn person has not become the beast-king yet.

Revelation 13 (status with 42 months before Jesus's return)
7 heads - no crowns - no crowns because the little horn person has been assassinated, ending the prophecy of the 7 kings.
10 horns -crowns - to rule with the beast-king (the little horn person brought back to life) for the 42 months.

 

[ewq1938]

Churches are the body of Christ. Churches are comprised of many members.

The two witnesses in Revelation 11 are two individuals.

No, they aren't. It says the 2W are two churches and two individuals, candlesticks and olive trees. The 2W are not only the two olive trees.

 

[Douggg]

No, they aren't. It says the 2W are two churches and two individuals, candlesticks and olive trees. The 2W are not only the two olive trees.

What two churches ?

 

[ewq1938]

What two churches ?

The two candlesticks.

 

[Douggg]

The two candlesticks.

Be specific. The two witnesses are what two churches in your claim ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Taking the mark will be a matter of an individual's choice. There will be pressure to take the mark - because of the law that will be passed that to buy or sell, a person must have the mark of the beast, the number of the beast, the name of the beast.

You say it will be a physical tattoo, but that could be surgically removed. So, if someone had it removed then they can avoid going to the lake of fire (Rev 14:9-11) since they would no longer have the mark of the beast? Is that how salvation can be determined? Of course not. The mark of the beast is not a physical mark. It's the spiritual counterpart to the seal of God, which also is not physical. The seal of God is the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30). The mark of the beast is the spirit of antichrist that all unbelievers who deny Jesus have (1 John 4:3).

Not being able to buy or sell is not talking about buying or selling food, drink or merchandise. It's talking about buying or selling in a spiritual sense.

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

See how the word "buy" and "sell" can be used figuratively, like in this verse? Having the mark of the beast means someone is loyal to the dragon (Satan) and his beast and means they are someone whose name is not written in the book of life (Rev 13:8) and who will end up in the lake of fire if they don't repent (Rev 14:9-11). So, Revelation 13:17 is talking about not being able to buy or sell their beliefs in a figurative sense unless they have the mark of the beast (unless they are an unbeliever). So, the beast makes war with anyone who tries to buy or sell anything, like the gospel, that does not promote the worship of the dragon and the beast.

Taking the mark, the number, or the name, likely will include signing an agreement to reject God and Jesus and all other forms of religion except that of worship of the beast-king. Requirement to sign such an agreement is of course speculation on my part. What do you think ? Do you think that may happen ?

LOL. No, I don't think that will happen. Imagine the logistics of trying to force literally everyone to sign something like that. That's not even reasonable to think that could happen. But, are you not reading what I'm saying? I am saying it's a spiritual mark that unbelievers have in contrast to the spiritual mark or seal that believers have, which is the Holy Spirit. So, why would you ask me if I think it's a physical mark as you're describing when I have made it very clear that I don't believe it's a physical mark?

You have decided that you should try to interpret the most highly symbolic book in the entire Bible as literally as possible and that is a mistake on your part. Since having the mark of the beast results in someone being condemned to the lake of fire, you should think of what it is in reality that marks someone as one who will end up in the lake of fire. That's someone who refuses to repent of their sins and believe in Christ. So, the mark of the beast symbolically represents that and all unbelievers have that mark while all believers have the seal of God (Holy Spirit).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, you recall incorrectly. The beast in all three chapters is the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7 - the Roman Empire.

Revelation 17 beast with the seven heads and ten horns is the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7 - the Roman Empire - it's status at the time of John, 1st century.

In Revelation 12, the fourth kingdom the Roman Empire (manifested in the end times as the EU) - its status with 7 years before Jesus returns. Revelation 12:6, the 1260 days, plus Revelation 12:14, the time/times/half time total the 7 years.

In Revelation 13, the fourth kingdom the Roman Empire (manifested in the end times as the EU) - its status with 42 months before Jesus returns. Revelation 13:5, the 42 months rule of the beast-king.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Revelation 17 (status first century)
7 heads - no crowns - the prophecy of the 7 kings incomplete. king 7 yet to come.
10 horns - no crowns - the prophecy of the 10 kings not started.

Revelation 12 (status with 7 years before Jesus's return)
7 heads - crowns - the prophecy of the 7 kings complete, king 7 the little horn person in power.
10 horns - no crowns - the prophecy of the 10 kings started, but no crowns since the little horn person has not become the beast-king yet.

Revelation 13 (status with 42 months before Jesus's return)
7 heads - no crowns - no crowns because the little horn person has been assassinated, ending the prophecy of the 7 kings.
10 horns -crowns - to rule with the beast-king (the little horn person brought back to life) for the 42 months.

So, I was right that you don't see them all the same, but you just didn't understand what I was saying. You can't say that the Roman empire of the first century is the same Roman empire that you think exists just before Jesus's return, so what I said is correct that you don't see the beast of Revelation 13 the same as you see the beast of Revelation 17. At least, not in relation to the timing of each.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Spiritualizing the two witnesses as being the church ? The church as being symbolically dead ? In a prior post you said the two witnesses are two churches, a Jewish church and Gentile church.

You have a reading comprehension problem, Douggg. You don't bother to make an effort to read everything I say and/or you don't read everything carefully. I assume you have read Romans 11? Do you understand that Gentile believers, represented in Romans 11 as branches from wild olive tree, have been grafted in with Jewish believers in the one cultivated olive tree that Jewish believers remained in? So, in that sense you could say that the Jewish congregation or church of believers was joined with the Gentile congregation or church of believers into one church. One body of Christ. Like what Paul writes about in Ephesians 2:11-22. That's my understanding of the two witnesses. Jew and Gentile believers preaching the gospel together as one body of Christ throughout the world.

I explained that the symbolic death of the church relates to the silencing of the gospel in the time just before Jesus returns. Don't you believe that there will be a mass falling away from the faith and unrestrained wickedness before Jesus returns, like what Paul wrote about in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12? Don't you think that describes a time during which the preaching of the gospel will be mostly drowned out by false teaching and false religions and so on?

It is easy to understand why you can't, don't want to, make timeline charts.

I have told you the reason for that, so let me tell you the reason instead of you trying to tell me. The reason is that they are not necessary. There are no timeline charts in the Bible and they are not necessary in order to understand the timeline of things writen with words in the Bible without any timeline charts. You may be someone who can't comprehend the Bible timelines without charts, but that is not a problem for me and many others.

 

[Douggg]

So, I was right that you don't see them all the same, but you just didn't understand what I was saying. You can't say that the Roman empire of the first century is the same Roman empire that you think exists just before Jesus's return, so what I said is correct that you don't see the beast of Revelation 13 the same as you see the beast of Revelation 17. At least, not in relation to the timing of each.

The beast in Revelation 17, Revelation 12, Revelation 13 with 7 heads and 10 horns is the Roman Empire, but in the end times has changed in appearance.

Here's an analogy - As a child of ten years old - you had 1 head, 2 arms. As an adult of twenty years old - you have 1 head, 2 arms. As an adult of forty years old - you have1 head, 2 arms. You are the same person, regardless of age. But your appearance has changed.

In my post 1228, I gave a detailed explanation of the 7 heads and ten horns, crowns, no crowns as the beast's appearance changed from Revelation 17, to Revelation 12, to Revelation 13. Just as your appearance changed from ten years old, to twenty years old, to forty years old..... although you are the same person throughout.

 

[Douggg]

You have a reading comprehension problem, Douggg. You don't bother to make an effort to read everything I say and/or you don't read everything carefully. I assume you have read Romans 11? Do you understand that Gentile believers, represented in Romans 11 as branches from wild olive tree, have been grafted in with Jewish believers in the one cultivated olive tree that Jewish believers remained in? So, in that sense you could say that the Jewish congregation or church of believers was joined with the Gentile congregation or church of believers into one church. One body of Christ. Like what Paul writes about in Ephesians 2:11-22. That's my understanding of the two witnesses. Jew and Gentile believers preaching the gospel together as one body of Christ throughout the world.

No, Romans 11 is not saying that there was a Jewish church which a Gentile church joined into being one church.

Romans11 is saying that salvation was offered to the Jews first. Individual Jews who rejected the gospel of salvation were branches that were cut off from God's olive tree. Individual Gentiles who originally were not branches in God's olive tree, were grafted in, once those individual Gentiles embraced the gospel of salvation.

The two witnesses of Revelation 11 are two individuals who will preach the gospel of salvation. Not a Jewish church and a Gentile church.

 

[ewq1938]

Be specific. The two witnesses are what two churches in your claim ?

It's not a claim. Candle sticks are churches. Teh two witnesses are two candlesticks AND two olive trees but you ignore the two candlesticks and think the 2W are only the two olive trees/individuals.

 

[Douggg]

It's not a claim. Candle sticks are churches. Teh two witnesses are two candlesticks AND two olive trees but you ignore the two candlesticks and think the 2W are only the two olive trees/individuals.

No, I maintain that the two witnesses are two individual persons who metaphorically are two candlesticks and two olive trees.

If you maintain that the two candle sticks are two churches. Then what two churches ?

 

[TribulationSigns]

No, I maintain that the two witnesses are two individual persons who metaphorically are two candlesticks and two olive trees.

Nope. Not two individual persons!

If you maintain that the two candle sticks are two churches. Then what two churches ?

The two candlesticks aren't two churches. Just like the two witnesses are not two persons. The Lord is talking about his faithful people coming with TRUTH, which the number two signifies!

Numbers 35:30

• "Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die."

Here God is using the minimum number of "two" witnesses to illustrate the corroboration of what is the TRUTH (Deu. 17:6). One witness could not by God's law establish it as the truth. It took at least "two" witnesses to establish any accusation true, that a man could be put to death. This number two signified the agreement or corroboration that established Truth! That is precisely why Revelation chapter eleven uses the phrase "Two Witnesses". It is to signify that these are the truthful or faithful witnesses (many people) of Christ who went forth declaring God's Word! The Lord does nothing by coincidence and that phrase establishes that their testimony is the true witness. Again, we can see this same principle illustrated when Jesus reiterates this law of God in Matthew.

Matthew 18:16

• "But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."

A minimum of two witnesses would establish the truth. Note it says there "that every word may be established". In other words, a witness to verify the truth of what's been said. Two witnesses symbolize that what's being said is verified true by law. The concept that God ordained from the beginning.

John 8:17

• "It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.."

God's law prescribed that the Testimony of "two" men is a truthful testimony. That number two illustrates God is using the number as the establishment that what is said is the truth. Likewise, when Jesus Christ sent the Seventy out to witness or testify to the truth, not coincidentally, he sent them out by two.

Luke 10:1

• "After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them Two and Two before His face into every city and place, whither He Himself would come."

He sent them out by two and two (two witnesses) and told them that he who hears you, hears Me! In Other words, they went with the unadulterated truth which was God's Word! Indeed, they were the truthful witnesses to it! And he who heard them, heard God's Word of truth, at their mouth! This is the Church sent out "the Two Witnesses." Jesus sending them out by two established in scripture the numerical symbology that they went with the power of the truth of God's Word. Likewise, Jesus did the exact same thing with the twelve disciples because God wants us to know assuredly that His Church declares His word in truth. Indeed, it is the pillar and ground of it! That is what is illustrated by this number two!

Two Candlesticks
Two Witnesses
Two Olive Trees, etc!

God is referring to His faithful Church, empowered by the Holy Spirit to preach the true (Two) gospel of salvation—not some bizarre teaching about two literal fire-breathing individuals. Seriously, stop twisting the Scripture.