Will Christ utter new words in a Premil millennium?

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, I'm debunking, in effect, what you erroneously think John Calvin said and thus what Calvinists believe.

You are not. You never are willing to admit what your beliefs imply. You believe that man has no ability, in and of himself, to decide to repent and believe because you believe that all people are born totally depraved. You believe that man can only repent and believe if God gives him repentance and faith. Therefore, you do NOT believe that man has ANY responsibility in relation to salvation and that the responsibility in salvation is ENTIRELY up to God. You don't like how that all sounds, so you don't admit that is what you believe, but it is definitely what Calvinism teaches.

Tell me, do you believe that God expects all people to glorify Him as God and to be thankful to Him? Paul said no one has any excuse for not doing so (Romans 1:18-21). If so, why do you believe that totally depraved people are expected to choose to glorify God as God and be thankful to Him, but at the same time, for some reason, they are not able to repent of their sins and believe in Christ? Why are they able to make some moral choices, but not the one that means the most in relation to their eternal destiny?

Again, among others (I've cited Romans 9:14-18 many times), <smile>

Yes, you have shown how you misinterpret that passage many times. I'm well aware of that. You always ignore that God wants to have mercy on all people (Romans 11:30-32). You clearly don't believe that He genuinely wants to have mercy on all people because you believe that He purposely decided to have mercy only on some people while not giving the rest any opportunity at all to receive His mercy.

As you know, the father of the boy with the unclean spirit (Mark 9:14-29) cries out to Jesus, "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” In that statement, he was acknowledging that Jesus... God... is the one Who makes belief in Christ possible.​

Oops. You are badly twisting that. He said he believes. You just completely ignore that. He believed without being given faith. It doesn't say he didn't believe and was asking for faith. No, he said he believed, but he was asking to have stronger faith than what he had. You act as if he had no faith at all and was asking the Lord for faith. No. He had faith, but he acknowledged it was weak and asked for help to have stronger faith.

This reminds me of how Calvinists try to use Lydia as an example to show that a person can only have faith if God gives it to them. Calvinists see the description of her mind being opened to the gospel, but they miss that she was already a believer and a worshiper of God before Paul preached the gospel to her. Calvinists don't address how she became a believer and worshiper of God in the first place. Paul wasn't led to preach to her randomly for no reason. As Jesus indicated, those who believed Moses would also believe in Jesus (John 5:46).

To be specific, it is the Holy Spirit Who convicts, but of course the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all one in each other. And, as John says, "...to all who did receive Him, Who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13)​

That passage talks about the actual regeneration process that is done by the Holy Spirit. Of course, it's an act only of God and not of man. That has nothing to do with the timing of being born again in relation to faith. You twist passages like that to fit your doctrine over and over again.

I think it's safe to assume that we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit at the same time we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. But, scripture is clear that faith comes first.

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

No, you're just not acknowledging... or accepting, maybe... what it actually is.

I don't acknowledge your false understanding of what faith is.

Again, "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). I've asked this before, but I ask you again, SI ~ rhetorically ~ what... or rather Who... gives us that assurance? And Who convicts us? <smile> So, then,why do we have this faith?

Our faith is our response to hearing the word of God (the gospel) and to the Holy Spirit speaking to our hearts. We aren't made to trust in Christ. How can we be forced or caused to put our trust in Christ? That makes no sense. I'll quote the passage I just quoted above again...

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This clearly shows that our faith is the act of trusting in Christ after hearing "the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation". Over and over again scripture refers to faith as "our faith" or "your faith" or "my faith". In your view it's not our own faith that we put in Christ. What kind of faith is that then? We are nothing more than robots if the faith does not come from our own choice to put our trust in Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sure it does. Because we have this faith, which is the assurance of God that He exists and is Who He says He is and that we are saved and in Christ Jesus.

All people are expected to believe that God exists and is Who He says He is (Romans 1:18-21). So, why is it that some do not believe He exists and/or do not believe Who He says He is? It's because they choose to not believe that. It isn't that they are not capable of believing that or else scripture would not teach that they have no excuse for not believing that (Romans 1:18-21). Assuming you agree that all people are expected by God to glorify Him and be thankful to Him, I have no idea how you conclude that all people are expected to do that and are capable of doing that, but at the same time some are not expected to and not able to repent and believe in Christ.

Faith, SI, by definition, is clearly not putting our confidence and trust in God.

Yes, it is. Again, scrpiture describes is "our faith". I'll quote that passage above one more time...

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

How in the world can you deny that faith is putting our confidence and trust in Christ when Paul explicitly taught that people are sealed with the Holy Spirit after putting their confidence and trust in Christ?

A loaded question, because of the last part of it... "that God does not decide for him." God does not decide for him by any stretch of the imagination. As I have said, over and over again, to you and several others, our decision is the result of the heart... the will always follows the heart.

Who creates people? God. So, if someone has a heart that is not capable of repenting and believing, then who is responsible for that? God. How can someone be blamed for not repenting and believing if they are born with a heart that is not capable of ever doing so? That makes no sense. Yet, God condemns and punishes people for not repenting and believing. He does so for no good reason according to Calvinism. But, if man has free will and is fully capable of deciding to either repent and believe the gospel or to reject it, then it makes sense that God would punish people for not doing what He made them to be capable of doing.

That's what God does for those whom He chooses to have mercy on... he removes the heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh... puts a new spirit in that person... gives him/her His Holy Spirit. Exactly like God says in Ezekiel 11:19-20 and 36:25-27. And then... <smile>

That occurs after someeone repents and puts their faith and trust in Christ. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit AFTER putting our trust in Christ. You have things the other way around. What being given a new heart allows us to do is change the way we live our lives so that we are able to do the good works that God prepares for us and gives us the power to overcome sin. That has nothing to do with one's ability to repent and believe or not. When someone repents and believes they are acknowledging that they can't save themselves and can't atone for their own sins and can't live righteously in their own power and they want God to save them and have mercy on them and to change their lives.

Right. Agree. But you're either missing the point, or skating around it. In that parable, He's talking to a group of people who "trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt" ... who had hearts of stone.

I'm skating around nothing. I'm showing that the idea that man could take credit for his own salvation if he is required to choose to humble himself before God is completely faulty. Humbling ourselves is the exact opposite of taking credit for salvation. We are expected to humble ourselves and acknowledge that we can't save ourselves. Why would we then turn around and give ourselves credit if we receive mercy after doing so? That makes no sense. We ARE saved by grace through faith, but not by works. You equate faith with works, but scripture does not.

Arminians do. By, in effect, making faith out to be manufactured in the self by man.

So what? Faith involves man putting his trust in Christ instead of himself. What is the problem with that? You falsely think man can then take credit for his own salvation. Nonsense. Man is not going to try to take credit for his own salvation after having acknowledged that he can't save himself and needs Jesus to save him.

 

[PinSeeker]

You believe that man has no ability, in and of himself, to decide to repent and believe...

The issue is in what sense one understands that "man has no ability." Just on it's face, it's very true. Man does surely have the ability ~ merely in the sense that man can make a decision between this or that ~ to repent and believe; in that sense, it's quite ridiculous to think man cannot do this, woodenly speaking. But in a different sense, man cannot make this decision rightly because he is abolutely inclined ~ because of the spirit within him, his heart... who his father is ~ to do the opposite.

because you believe that all people are born totally depraved.

And if you understood ~ or you may in fact understand but refuse to acknowledge and accept ~ the concept of total depravity correctly, you would, too. But because of this ~ because of our very different understandings of John Calvin's concept of "total depravity" ~ you do not. To put it very succinctly, "total depravity" is not synonymous at all with "utter depravity." The concept of "total depravity" is not that man is as bad as he could possibly be, but that... every part of a person's being is corrupted by sin, affecting the mind, emotions, and will, leaving no human faculty untouched by sin. It means that all humans are totally estranged from God and incapable of achieving a right relationship with Him on their own merit. In practice, "total depravity" means that there is no human faculty left untouched by sin, even in relative terms. The mind, as well as the emotions and appetites, is biased against God. We need renewal in the whole person ~ to be BORN AGAIN OF THE SPIRIT.

You believe that man can only repent and believe if God gives him repentance and faith.

No, I believe ~ as John Calvin did ~ that man will only repent and believe if he/she is born again of the Spirit. Otherwise, he/she will not... because... see directly above. Yet again, as Jesus told His disciples, "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide" (John 15:16). Was Jesus telling them they did not make a decision? No, of course not. And as He tells Peter in response to Peter's confession ("You are the Christ, the Son of the living God"), "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father Who is in heaven" (Matthew 16:). Was Jesus telling Peter that he did not make a decision? No, of course not.

Therefore, you do NOT believe that man has ANY responsibility in relation to salvation and that the responsibility in salvation is ENTIRELY up to God.

Spiritual Israelite... <chuckles> ...the root word of 'responsibility' is 'response.' Just that should be enough. But God's grace initially comes to us free (else it would not be grace at all). The response ~ yes, from us ~ comes afterwards, and is not just a one-time thing but a continual thing from that time forward, from initial love of God and repentance and belief to good works as the outward evidence of that love of God. And this is why we're born again, the purpose for which we have been born again: "...we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10). We are called by God to respond to Him and His great grace in these ways... even to, as Paul says in Romans 12, "present (our) body as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is (our) spiritual worship (Romans 12:1-2). It is a tremendous responsibility, but one that, because of the Holy Spirit's ongoing work in us ~ what we call sanctification ~ we gladly accept and are empowered to and strive to fulfill. If we are truly born again of the Spirit of God, then we will bear the fruit of the Spirit, which is ~ is, not are; the fruit of the Spirit is a singular thing ~ "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, against (which) there is no law." So, because we belong to Christ Jesus and live by the Spirit, we are also to keep in step with the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-25). Again, it is a tremendous responsibility that God has given us, but again, empowers us in the gifts of the Spirit and upholds us in the power of the Spirit to fulfill. This is how great our God is.

And that should be enough. <smile>

Again, for someone who is so... offended... when someone mispresents what he believes, you sure don't seem to have any problem doing it... <smile> Which makes you... well... yeah that. <smile>

...our faith is the act of trusting in Christ after hearing "the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation".

By saying faith is an act of man, Spiritual Israelite, you are saying in effect that faith is a work of man... which is strange, because this you disavow, but then without a doubt insinuate and even unequivocally say and assert. But no, "...faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible" (Hebrews 11:1-3). Maybe someday you will accept the very definition of faith, which... is what it is; God tells us (through the writer of Hebrews), this is His Word. And yet again, "by grace (we) have been saved through faith, (a)nd this is not (our) own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast... we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Grace and peace to you, Spiritual Israelite. The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The issue is in what sense one understands that "man has no ability." Just on it's face, it's very true. Man does surely have the ability ~ merely in the sense that man can make a decision between this or that ~ to repent and believe; in that sense, it's quite ridiculous to think man cannot do this, woodenly speaking. But in a different sense, man cannot make this decision rightly because he is abolutely inclined ~ because of the spirit within him, his heart... who his father is ~ to do the opposite.

That's what you say, but is that what scripture says? No. Scripture says that no one has any excuse to not glorify God and not be thankful to Him because He has made Himself plain to everyone by what He has made (Romans 1:18-21). How is it that someone who you think is "absolutely inclined" to not repent and believe is expected to glorify God as God and to be thankful to Him? That's contradictory. If someone has no excuse for not glorifying God and being thankful to Him, which scripture teaches is the case, then it makes no sense to think that anyone has any excuse for not repenting of their sins and believing in Christ. But, you give people an excuse because you say man is "absolutely inclined" to not repent and believe and can't choose to do so without God giving them repentance and faith. Their excuse for not doing so then is that God didn't give them the ability and means to do so by giving them repentance and faith. How can that be held against them? That makes no sense. And, yet people are condemned for not believing (John 3:18).

And if you understood ~ or you may in fact understand but refuse to acknowledge and accept ~ the concept of total depravity correctly, you would, too. But because of this ~ because of our very different understandings of John Calvin's concept of "total depravity" ~ you do not.

LOL. Your word salads bore me. Is it too hard for you to be specific about anything?

To put it very succinctly, "total depravity" is not synonymous at all with "utter depravity." The concept of "total depravity" is not that man is as bad as he could possibly be, but that... every part of a person's being is corrupted by sin, affecting the mind, emotions, and will, leaving no human faculty untouched by sin. It means that all humans are totally estranged from God and incapable of achieving a right relationship with Him on their own merit.

Despite our sinful nature, all people are fully expected to glorify God and be thankful to Him and no one has any excuse for not doing so (Romans 1:18-21). So, what is the reason that people don't glorify God and are not thankful to Him despite God making Himself plain to them? It can't be because of total depravity. That would give people an excuse. But, there is no excuse. The only explanation that makes sense for why some people don't glorify God and aren't thankful to Him must be because they have free will and they choose not to do so. That puts the blame completely on man for not doing so without giving him any excuse. But, if he is supposedly totally depraved and unable to glorify God and be thankful to Him, then he would have an excuse. This same concept can be applied to repentance and faith. It makes no sense that someone is expected to glorify God as God and be thankful to Him while at the same time they somehow are not able to choose to repent and believe? They can only make some moral choices, but not when it comes to salvation? That's nonsense.

In practice, "total depravity" means that there is no human faculty left untouched by sin, even in relative terms. The mind, as well as the emotions and appetites, is biased against God. We need renewal in the whole person ~ to be BORN AGAIN OF THE SPIRIT.

Nowhere does scripture teach this. Instead, it teaches that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Not by being born again of the Spirit. By hearing the word of God. Once someone hears the word of God they then have to make a choice of how to respond to it. To accept it and believe it or to reject it.

Joshua told the Israelites to choose who to serve and the choices were either the Lord or one of the false gods of their fathers or of the Amorites (Joshua 24:15). Did he indicate that they could only choose if they were first born again of the Spirit? No, he told them to choose that day.

Calvinism is partly based on a false understanding of what it means to be dead in sins. It has nothing to do with one's ability or inability to repent and believe. Jesus taught that sinners are sick and in need of a physician (Mark 2:16-17) and He calls them to repentance. All people are sinners (Romans 3:23), so He calls all people to repentance. That lines up with God commanding all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). So, sinners, who are considered by Jesus to be spiritually sick, are called to repentance. They are called to acknowledge that they are spiritually sick sinners and unable to heal themselves (unable to atone for their own sins) and they need the physician, Jesus, to heal them (forgive their sins). Sick people are not totally depraved. They are able to recognize and acknowledge that they are sick and can't heal themselves while needing the physician to heal them.

No, I believe ~ as John Calvin did ~ that man will only repent and believe if he/she is born again of the Spirit.

You believe wrongly. That is not taught anywhere in scripture. Show me any scripture which teaches that. You can't do it. But, you're welcome to try if you want.

Otherwise, he/she will not... because... see directly above. Yet again, as Jesus told His disciples, "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide" (John 15:16).

Here we go again with your misinterpretation of that verse. We have talked about this. He was not talking about choosing them to salvation with them not choosing to believe in Him. You're completely missing the context there. They were not chosen to be saved. They were chosen to be His closest disciples and to bear fruit for Him. It wasn't their choice to be among His close disciples, it was His.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Even Judas Iscariot was chosen in that sense, but he ended up betraying Jesus and Jesus called him "a devil". So, you can't use John 15:16 to support your Calvinist doctrine.

Spiritual Israelite... <chuckles> ...the root word of 'responsibility' is 'response.'

No. Really? Wow, you are a genius. I never knew. Come on. What was your point in telling me something everyone knows?

Just that should be enough.

Enough for what? LOL. Certainly not enough to prove your doctrine. You are so vague sometimes. You need to learn to be more specific. Your posts would be half as long in that case.

But God's grace initially comes to us free (else it would not be grace at all).

Right. He graciously and freely offers salvation to all people (Titus 2:11). But, in your doctrine, it's not a genuine offer to all people.

The response ~ yes, from us ~ comes afterwards, and is not just a one-time thing but a continual thing from that time forward, from initial love of God and repentance and belief to good works as the outward evidence of that love of God. And this is why we're born again, the purpose for which we have been born again: "...we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10). We are called by God to respond to Him and His great grace in these ways... even to, as Paul says in Romans 12, "present (our) body as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is (our) spiritual worship (Romans 12:1-2). It is a tremendous responsibility, but one that, because of the Holy Spirit's ongoing work in us ~ what we call sanctification ~ we gladly accept and are empowered to and strive to fulfill.

LOL. I love how you act as if man has responsibility, but at the same time you say that God makes us do what He wants us to do by way of the Holy Spirit. What kind of responsibility is that? Do you think robots have responsibility? Your doctrine makes human beings no different than robots who do what God programs us to do.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If we are truly born again of the Spirit of God, then we will bear the fruit of the Spirit, which is ~ is, not are; the fruit of the Spirit is a singular thing ~ "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, against (which) there is no law." So, because we belong to Christ Jesus and live by the Spirit, we are also to keep in step with the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-25). Again, it is a tremendous responsibility that God has given us, but again, empowers us in the gifts of the Spirit and upholds us in the power of the Spirit to fulfill. This is how great our God is.

Ah, yes. Your version of God is so great that He purposely does not give some (most?) people any opportunity to be saved and instead ensures that they will experience eternal torment.

Again, for someone who is so... offended... when someone mispresents what he believes, you sure don't seem to have any problem doing it... <smile> Which makes you... well... yeah that. <smile>

I don't misrepresent what you believe. You just get very uncomfortable any time I spell out the implications of what you believe.

By saying faith is an act of man, Spiritual Israelite, you are saying in effect that faith is a work of man.

So what? That doesn't make it the type of work that scriptures says we could boast about if salvation was of works. Faith is contrasted with works in Ephesians 2:8-9. We ARE saved by grace through faith but not by works. If faith was the type of work of which we are not saved then scripture wouldn't say we are saved through faith. Saved by believing in Jesus Christ. But, it does.

I can't imagine that if someone asked you how to be saved that you would answer that question the way Paul and Silas did when the jailer asked them what he had to do to be saved. They told him "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved" and indicated that was true for everyone else in their household as well. You clearly don't believe there is anything man has to do to be saved because you think that means man is being saved by his own works. But, faith is not the type of work or else Paul and Silas would not have told the jailer that what he needed to do was "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" in order to be saved.

Faith involves someone humbling themselves and acknowledging that they can't save themselves while putting their trust in Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior instead. How can you think that "faith is a work of man" that he can boast about when it is exactly the opposite of that?

.. which is strange, because this you disavow, but then without a doubt insinuate and even unequivocally say and assert. But no, "...faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible" (Hebrews 11:1-3). Maybe someday you will accept the very definition of faith, which... is what it is; God tells us (through the writer of Hebrews), this is His Word. And yet again, "by grace (we) have been saved through faith, (a)nd this is not (our) own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast... we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Salvation, which is by God's grace through our faith, is the gift of God. Romans 6:23 tells us that eternal life is the gift of God, so that shows it is salvation that is the gift of God. How does one obtain eternal life and salvation? By believing in Jesus Christ (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31). Man is responsible to place his faith and trust in Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior.

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Nowhere does scripture say that saving faith is given to us. Saving faith is described as something we are responsible to do (Acts 16:30-31, John 3:16, John 6:27-29, Romans 10:9-13), not something some receive and some don't for reasons only God knows. We are not given faith that makes us declare and confess that Jesus is Lord while believing that God raised Him from the dead. We have to willingly choose to declare and confess that. We are required to respond to God's call to salvation by either accepting or rejecting the word of God that we hear. God graciously and genuinely offers salvation to all people (Titus 2:11) which was made possible by sending His Son to die for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2) and He commands all people to repent (Acts 17:30) because He wants all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6). In your doctrine, He does not genuinely offer salvation to all people because you believe it is entirely His choice and He only chooses to save relatively few people while ensuring that the rest have no opportunity to be saved.

Grace and peace to you, Spiritual Israelite. The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace.

And you as well. And may the Lord continue to graciously and genuinely offer salvation to everyone in the world since He loves everyone in the world (John 3:16) and wants them all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6).

 

[PinSeeker]

I don't misrepresent what you believe.

You do. Over and over and over again. You either purposely misrepresent it, or you inadvertently misrepresent it because you don't understand it (even though I clearly explain), and often both at the same time. But yes, over and over and over again.

Scripture says that no one has any excuse to not glorify God and not be thankful to Him because He has made Himself plain to everyone by what He has made (Romans 1:18-21).

Agree; nowhere have I denied this or remotely said otherwise.

How is it that someone who you think is "absolutely inclined" to not repent and believe is expected to glorify God as God and to be thankful to Him?

How does one's inclination one way or the other nullify one's obligation to glorify God as God and to be thankful to Him?

If someone has no excuse for not glorifying God and being thankful to Him, which scripture teaches is the case, then it makes no sense to think that anyone has any excuse for not repenting of their sins and believing in Christ.

Right. And they do not.

... you give people an excuse because you say man is "absolutely inclined" to not repent and believe and can't choose to do so without God giving them repentance and faith.

Absolutely not. Here again, this is just your opinion. We agree on Romans 1, pretty much. <smile> Now if ~ if ~ it were my assertion that God is responsible for making us absolutely inclined in this way, then you might have a point. But I would never make that assertion.

Is it too hard for you to be specific about anything?

(Scripture) teaches that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 10:17, yes: "faith..." ~ which is God's (not your own) "assurance of things hoped for..." and the Holy Spirit's "conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1) ~ "...comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." Yes. <smile>

"Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills." (1 Corinthians 12:4-11).​

This is how the Spirit gives us this faith, which is a gift of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:9), through our hearing.

Not by being born again of the Spirit. By hearing the word of God. Once someone hears the word of God...

...then through this, the Holy Spirit comes and works in one's heart... removes the heart of stone and gives the person a heart of flesh. This is our born again experience, whereby God "sprinkles clean water on us... (this is baptism by water and the Spirit; John ), thereby "cleaning us form all our uncleannesses and idols, His giving us a new heart, putting within us new spirit, His putting His Spirit within us." Ezekiel 11:19-20; 36:26-27)

they then have to make a choice of how to respond to it. To accept it and believe it or to reject it.

Absolutely. And if and when the Spirit does this (directly above), they will then... choose wisely. <smile> True wisdom is also a gift of the Spirit...

...you say that God makes us do what He wants us to do by way of the Holy Spirit.

I absolutely do not. What God does, Spiritual Israelite, is, God gives us life in Christ, and because God is then our Father ~ as opposed to previously when our father was the devil and our desire was to do his will (John 8) ~ then, from that point on our desire is to do His will. We will still in this life be imperfect in doing so, but... the Spirit helps us in our weakness. Peter tells us exactly what God causes:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5).​

in your doctrine, it's not a genuine offer to all people.

This is merely your opinion of "my doctrine." And it's wrong. <smile>

Salvation, which is by God's grace through our faith, is the gift of God.

This false assertion, specifically "through our faith," is pretty much the whole problem. God gives us faith, which is... yet again quoting Hebrews 11:1... "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Neither this assurance nor the conviction thereof can come from anyone except God. None of us assures our self of things hoped for or convicts of things not seen. If it were we who assure and/or convict ourselves of things hoped for and not seen, it would be an utterly empty assurance and conviction... worth nothing. But since it is from God, it is of infinite worth. And... it is a gift of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12;9).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You do. Over and over and over again. You either purposely misrepresent it, or you inadvertently misrepresent it because you don't understand it (even though I clearly explain), and often both at the same time. But yes, over and over and over again.

No, I absolutely do not. You just won't admit the implications of your doctrine. To claim that you believe that God does not make a genuine offer of salvation to all people is not a case of misrepresenting your doctrine. You can't reasonably claim that He makes a genuine offer of salvation to those who have no chance whatsoever of being saved because of their supposed total depravity. That's ridiculous. You are clearly not willing to be honest about the implications of what you believe.

How does one's inclination one way or the other nullify one's obligation to glorify God as God and to be thankful to Him?

How is someone who, in your view, cannot repent and believe because of their total depravity, expected to glorify God as God and be thankful to Him while having no excuse for not doing so? Why wouldn't their total depravity also prevent them from glorifying God as God and being thankful to Him? If someone is expected to give glory to God and be thankful to Him with no excuse for not doing so, how can that person also not have any excuse for not repenting and believing in Christ? Your doctrine gives people who are supposedly totally depraved an excuse for not repenting and believing in Christ. In your view they can't repent and believe because of their total depravity that they were born with. But, if that was the case they would have an excuse for not repenting and believing. In your view, they can't repent and believe unless God gives them repentance and faith. How can it be held against them and why are they punished for not repenting and believing when, in your view, they are not even capable of doing so?

Absolutely not. Here again, this is just your opinion. We agree on Romans 1, pretty much. <smile> Now if ~ if ~ it were my assertion that God is responsible for making us absolutely inclined in this way, then you might have a point. But I would never make that assertion.

Who creates people? God, right? So, who else is reponsible for what each person is capable of doing except for God? Hello? Why do you deny something so obvious? Why do some people not repent and believe? In your view it's because God created them in such a way that they can't do so unless He were to give them repentance and faith, which He chooses not to do for some (most?) people for some reason despite wanting all people to repent (Ezekiel 18:23, 2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30) and to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6).

How can someone be held responsible for not repenting and believing if they were born in such a way that they are inclined to not do so without being able to do anything about that? Do you have any explanation for that at all? I highly doubt it, but feel free to try.

Romans 10:17, yes: "faith..." ~ which is God's (not your own) "assurance of things hoped for..." and the Holy Spirit's "conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1) ~ "...comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." Yes. <smile>

LOL. If faith is God's then much of the Bible needs to be rewritten because it repeatedly refers to it as "our faith" and "your faith". James referred to his faith as "my faith" in James 2:18. I guess you must think all of those cases where it indicates that the faith belongs to the person who has faith are misinterpreted.

Jesus said "everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” How can someone humble himself if it's actually God who humbles him? If your doctrine was true, I would think Jesus would have said "he who God humbles will be exalted". But, scripture is clear that people are required to humble themselves. Everyone must choose whether to exalt themselves and think they have no need to confess that they are a sinner who needs Jesus or to humble themselves and confess that they are sinners who need Jesus to save them and provide for the forgiveness of their sins by way of His shed blood.

"Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills." (1 Corinthians 12:4-11).

This is how the Spirit gives us this faith, which is a gift of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:9), through our hearing.

Nope. That is talking about spiritual gifts and not each person receives all of the spiritual gifts. Notice it talks about one person being given the spiritual gift of "the utterance of wisdom" through the Spirit and then it says "to another faith by the same Spirit". That shows that one person can be given the spiritual gift of "the utterance of wisdom" and another person can instead be given the spiritual gift of "faith", which is not referring to saving faith or else it would not talk about not everyone being given that gift of the Spirit. Why did you just ignore that it indicates not all believers are given all of the spiritual gifts and that the gift of "faith" referenced there is not given to everyone? Can you not see that the one who receives the gift of healing is differentiated from the one who receives the gift of working miracles and the one with the gift of prophecy and so on, including the one receiving the gift of faith?

So, since not everyone receives the gift of "faith" mentioned there, it can't be talking about saving faith. So, what is it referring to then? It's just referring to an extra measure of faith needed to do certain things that God has certain people do. This should not be confused with saving faith that all believers have. The passage you quoted, as can be seen in Romans 12 as well, talks about each individual in the church receiving different spiritual gifts and "faith" is listed as just one of several different spiritual gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12 and not all believers have all of the spiritual gifts. So, you cannot use 1 Corinthians 12 as evidence that saving faith is a gift of God. There are many different spiritual gifts of the Spirit and God gives one or more to each person as He sees fit, but does not give all of them to all believers.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

...then through this, the Holy Spirit comes and works in one's heart... removes the heart of stone and gives the person a heart of flesh. This is our born again experience, whereby God "sprinkles clean water on us... (this is baptism by water and the Spirit; John ), thereby "cleaning us form all our uncleannesses and idols, His giving us a new heart, putting within us new spirit, His putting His Spirit within us." Ezekiel 11:19-20; 36:26-27)

That happens AFTER someone has repented and put their faith and trust in Christ. That's why Paul said we are sealed with the Holy Spirit AFTER first putting our faith and trust in Christ.

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This false assertion, specifically "through our faith," is pretty much the whole problem.

It's not a false assertion. It illustrates your problem of not acknowledging that it's "our faith" even though scripture calls it "our faith", "your faith", "my faith", etc. Faith involves someone putting their trust in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior instead of in themselves. How can that just be given to someone? If God basically causes us to repent and have faith, why is our faith described as "trust"? We are not trusting in Christ if faith is just given to us. To put out trust in Christ involves making a decision to not trust ourselves and to trust Him instead. We are not robots. If faith is just given to us and not something we can exercise of ourselves then we are nothing more than robots, but scripture never gives the impression that we are just robots. We can reason, we can understand the difference between right and wrong and so on.

Why does scripture talk about Paul persuading people to believe (see Acts 17:1-4 and Acts 18:1-4) if faith is given to people? Why would any persuasion be necessary if the choice to believe or not does not come from man and is instead given to man? Does God need to be persuaded to give people faith if that's how faith works? Of course not. And, yet, scripture talks about people needing to be persuaded to believe. That completely contradicts your understanding of how faith works. Also, scripture talks about faith as something that people are required to do and not something that God does for us (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, John 6:27-29, etc.).

God gives us faith, which is... yet again quoting Hebrews 11:1... "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Neither this assurance nor the conviction thereof can come from anyone except God. None of us assures our self of things hoped for or convicts of things not seen. If it were we who assure and/or convict ourselves of things hoped for and not seen, it would be an utterly empty assurance and conviction... worth nothing. But since it is from God, it is of infinite worth. And... it is a gift of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12;9).

To try to claim that saving faith is a gift of the Spirit requires you to ignore that not all believers receive all of the gifts of the Spirit. The one that you think refers to saving faith is not given to all who are saved just as the gift of healing is not given to all who are saved, the gift of prophecy is not given to all who are saved and so on. You just completely ignore the context of 1 Corinthians 12:9 and many other scriptures.

 

[PinSeeker]

You are clearly not willing to be honest about the implications of what you believe.

What was it, now, that you said about "word salads?" <chuckles>

What you suppose to be the implications are the issue. They're false implications, not in the sense that you are lying or anything like that, but that the supposed implications themselves are invalid. Nor do I mean you are misrepresenting anything I believe in the sense of lying or being dishonest; the more correct thing would be to say misstating, and that because of misunderstanding. And with that, I'm not insulting your intelligence in any way, but... it is what it is. But then there's this thing called obstinance... <smile>

How is someone who, in your view, cannot repent and believe because of their total depravity, expected to glorify God as God and be thankful to Him while having no excuse for not doing so?

Yet again, the key word in your question here is 'cannot.' All of us cannot, in our natural state, and that 'cannot' is not in the wooden sense of not being able to but rather not willing to do it, and rather absolutely inclined not to do it... absolutely inclined otherwise. This is the natural human condition, to do the will of his or her father the devil (John 8). In Romans 1, Paul says:

"...for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions..." (Romans 1:18-26)​

These are all acts of volition, SI. They willingly do these things, and they cannot ~ in the sense that they will not do these things because they, in and of themselves, are absolutely inclined not do these things and in fact wholly inclined to do the exact opposite.

And then in Romans 8:

"For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:5-8).​

Think of it this way, SI. I think I've said this before to you, but maybe not; go with me, here: A bunch of men wrote the Bible across several centuries, right? But it is the Word of God. But the men actually wrote it, so how is it God's Word? I know you know the answer; Paul says it in 2 Timothy 3, right? "All Scripture is breathed out by God..." So likewise, we believe because ~ if we are born again of the Spirit ~ the Holy Spirit is in us. Paul says it in Romans 8:

"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of Him Who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He Who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit Who dwells in you."​

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

If faith is God's then much of the Bible needs to be rewritten because it repeatedly refers to it as "our faith" and "your faith".

Nobody I know ~ especially not me ~ ever said "faith is God's." Who ever said that? Yeah, not me... Faith is God's assurance to us of our salvation in Christ. Yes, we have it, and it is our assurance from God of these things. And, some have a greater measure of it than others, but this does not make them "less Christian."

I guess you must think all of those cases where it indicates that the faith belongs to the person who has faith are misinterpreted.

No, I don't... <smile> If God assures you, then you are assured, and you have His assurance... and He will not rescind it... <smile> The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (Romans 11:29)...

How can someone humble himself if it's actually God who humbles him?

Why cannot both be true? Because they are... Yeah:

"Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, Who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross" (Philippians 2:5-11)

AND SO...

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12-13).

That is talking about spiritual gifts...

Yes...

and not each person receives all of the spiritual gifts.

They do. Not all are gifted in the same way... not all are apportioned to the same degree in any or all of the gifts of the Spirit. This is why God has given us each other, to encourage one another... for the common good, as Paul says... "to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good" (1 Corinthians 12:7).

Why did you just ignore that it indicates not all believers are given all of the spiritual gifts...

I didn't ignore anything, I just dismissed your saying that... <smile> ...because that's not what Paul is saying; it doesn't indicate that. But you know it's not terribly important that we agree on this particular thing...

... it can't be talking about saving faith.

That's the only kind of faith Paul talks about. Wow.

So, what is it referring to then?

Saving faith. <smile> Goodness gracious.

...you cannot use 1 Corinthians 12 as evidence that saving faith is a gift of God.

Even though God, by His Spirit, gives it... <chuckles>

There are many different spiritual gifts of the Spirit...

There are, but it's one Spirit that empowers them all.

and God gives one or more to each person as He sees fit, but does not give all of them to all believers.

Yes, He does. He apportions them differently, according to His will. Paul mentions the gifts individually, and what he's saying in that is that some are stronger in this one or that one. and this is by design... His design. He designed us to need each other, and so that we might all be one, as He ~ the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ~ are one. Back to this in a moment...

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

SIGH...

That happens AFTER someone has repented and put their faith and trust in Christ.

As Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.... Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

That's why Paul said we are sealed with the Holy Spirit AFTER first putting our faith and trust in Christ.

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Sure, we are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit upon believing. Absolutely. But being born again of the Spirit ~ which is not His sealing ~ comes first. Otherwise, we cannot be sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. And our being predestined for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ comes long, long before that... <smile> ... even before the foundation of the world, according to the purpose of God's will, as Paul has just said a few verses before Ephesians 1:12, in verses 4 and 5.

Still, you either cannot or will not acknowledge that the issue is the heart, not the will. It is the heart, the spirit, that drives the will. And if God does not give one a new heart/spirit, he will not come to belief in Christ. He will instead, in the natural spirit, continue to walk according to the flesh, live according to the flesh, and set his mind on the things of the flesh, will remain hostile to God, and will not submit to God’s law; indeed, he cannot... those who are in the flesh cannot please God... exactly as Paul says in Romans 8.

Why does scripture talk about Paul persuading people to believe...

You brought it up before, SI... faith ~ which, again, is God's assurance given to us ~ comes through hearing (Romans 10:17). This is the vehicle through which God works. Man hears, for sure, and, as Isaiah quotes God Himself as saying, His Word does not return to Him empty, but always accomplishes that for which He purposes and succeeds in the thing for which He sends it (Isaiah 55:11). If you read Isaiah 55 (or just remember), God talks about the sower in verse 10. Jesus tells the parable of the sower, right? That's us. You agree with that, I think. But now think of what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3. Speaking of himself (Paul) and Apollos, he says he planted, and Apollos watered, so we are to do this without discrimination. But as Paul says there, it is only God Who gives the growth. In this way, we are God's fellow workers (which is absolutely awesome), but still, it is only God Who gives the growth... or not, in view of the fact that God's Word does not return to Him empty, but always accomplishes that for which He purposes and succeeds in the thing for which He sends it.

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

And finally, back to 1 Corinthians 12...

To try to claim that saving faith is a gift of the Spirit requires you to...

...believe Paul was actually right in 1 Corinthians 12:9... <smile> ...and I do...

...not all believers receive all of the gifts of the Spirit.

"All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, Who apportions to each one individually as He wills." What you say here is not true for at least two reasons:

1. All the gifts are of the Holy Spirit, and if one has the Holy Spirit ~ as all Christians do ~ then he has all these things, at least in some measure. The Spirit is wholly present in each believer. And this leads us to number 2...​

​

2. The Spirit apportions ~ not grants ~ these things individually as he wills, which is to say that some of us are stronger in some gifts than others, not that we have some and don't have others.​

The one that you think refers to saving faith...

You mean even though Paul specifically says faith? <chuckles>

... is not given to all who are saved...

Hmmm, well, Paul does say that by God's grace we are saved through faith. And as you know (I think...), Jesus said all it takes is faith like a grain of mustard... Again, faith is God's assurance given to us. Do you somehow think some are saved but not assured by God that their sins are forgiven, that they have eternal life, and... such...?

You just completely ignore the context of 1 Corinthians 12:9...

Your misunderstanding of it, yes. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Nicodemus. I mean... SI... <chuckles>

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What was it, now, that you said about "word salads?" <chuckles>

What you suppose to be the implications are the issue. They're false implications, not in the sense that you are lying or anything like that, but that the supposed implications themselves are invalid. Nor do I mean you are misrepresenting anything I believe in the sense of lying or being dishonest; the more correct thing would be to say misstating, and that because of misunderstanding. And with that, I'm not insulting your intelligence in any way, but... it is what it is. But then there's this thing called obstinance... <smile>


Yet again, the key word in your question here is 'cannot.' All of us cannot, in our natural state, and that 'cannot' is not in the wooden sense of not being able to but rather not willing to do it, and rather absolutely inclined not to do it... absolutely inclined otherwise. This is the natural human condition, to do the will of his or her father the devil (John 8). In Romans 1, Paul says:

"...for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions..." (Romans 1:18-26)​

These are all acts of volition, SI. They willingly do these things, and they cannot ~ in the sense that they will not do these things because they, in and of themselves, are absolutely inclined not do these things and in fact wholly inclined to do the exact opposite.

And then in Romans 8:

"For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:5-8).​

Think of it this way, SI. I think I've said this before to you, but maybe not; go with me, here: A bunch of men wrote the Bible across several centuries, right? But it is the Word of God. But the men actually wrote it, so how is it God's Word? I know you know the answer; Paul says it in 2 Timothy 3, right? "All Scripture is breathed out by God..." So likewise, we believe because ~ if we are born again of the Spirit ~ the Holy Spirit is in us. Paul says it in Romans 8:

"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of Him Who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He Who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit Who dwells in you."​

Continued...

So, you're saying the reason that people don't glorify God as God and aren't thankful to Him is that they cannot be willing to do so? That can't be true because that would give people an excuse for not doing so. Surely, someone can't be blamed for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and not glorifying God and being thankful to Him if they cannot be willing to do so. But, Paul said they have no excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and not glorifying God as God and being thankful to Him. Why are you trying to give people an excuse for that when Paul said they are without excuse?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

SIGH...

Here is one thing you said I could not possibly agree with more.

As Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.... Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Yeah, and this proves what exactly in relation to what we're talking about?

Sure, we are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit upon believing. Absolutely. But being born again of the Spirit ~ which is not His sealing ~ comes first.

And, you base this on what exactly?

Otherwise, we cannot be sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

Huh? I see no basis for thinking that being born again of the Holy Spirit comes before faith when the sealing of the Holy Spirit comes after faith. Where are you seeing that?

And our being predestined for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ comes long, long before that... <smile> ... even before the foundation of the world, according to the purpose of God's will, as Paul has just said a few verses before Ephesians 1:12, in verses 4 and 5.

God predestined that anyone who would believe in Christ would be adopted as His children.

Still, you either cannot or will not acknowledge that the issue is the heart, not the will. It is the heart, the spirit, that drives the will.

You cannot or will not acknowledge that someone can be willing to repent and believe in the heart/spirit without having to first be regenerated by the Spirit.

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Notice here that Jesus talked about the spirit being willing, but at the same time the flesh is weak. So, someone can be willing to repent and believe in their spirit even while the flesh is telling them not to do so. And God can see that.

And if God does not give one a new heart/spirit, he will not come to belief in Christ.

That is not taught anywhere in scripture. We are given a new heart/spirit in order to do the good works God has prepared for us AFTER we become saved by grace through faith. Nowhere does scripture say we need a new heart/spirit in order to humble ourselves and acknowledge that we can't save ourselves and need Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

He will instead, in the natural spirit, continue to walk according to the flesh, live according to the flesh, and set his mind on the things of the flesh, will remain hostile to God, and will not submit to God’s law; indeed, he cannot... those who are in the flesh cannot please God... exactly as Paul says in Romans 8.

If this was true, Jesus would never have said that "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak". You say that someone spirit can't be willing to repent and believe unless they are given a new spirit, but scripture does not teach that.

You brought it up before, SI... faith ~ which, again, is God's assurance given to us ~ comes through hearing (Romans 10:17). This is the vehicle through which God works. Man hears, for sure, and, as Isaiah quotes God Himself as saying, His Word does not return to Him empty, but always accomplishes that for which He purposes and succeeds in the thing for which He sends it (Isaiah 55:11). If you read Isaiah 55 (or just remember), God talks about the sower in verse 10. Jesus tells the parable of the sower, right? That's us. You agree with that, I think. But now think of what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3. Speaking of himself (Paul) and Apollos, he says he planted, and Apollos watered, so we are to do this without discrimination. But as Paul says there, it is only God Who gives the growth. In this way, we are God's fellow workers (which is absolutely awesome), but still, it is only God Who gives the growth... or not, in view of the fact that God's Word does not return to Him empty, but always accomplishes that for which He purposes and succeeds in the thing for which He sends it.

It's not God's purpose to not give some (most?) people no opportunity to be saved. That blatantly contradicts the fact that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2) so that all people would have the opportunity to be saved, as God desires (1 Timothy 2:3-6). God graciously offers salvation to all people (Titus 2:11) and it's a genuine offer for all people that all people are capable of accepting, but they must choose to accept or reject it. You have God condemning and punishing people for not believing in Christ (John 3:18) for no reason because you those people could not be willing to do so. God does not punish people for no reason. He punishes people for not doing what He commands them to do and what they should have done, but did not (Matthew 22:1-7, Matthew 23:37-38).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nobody I know ~ especially not me ~ ever said "faith is God's." Who ever said that? Yeah, not me... Faith is God's assurance to us of our salvation in Christ. Yes, we have it, and it is our assurance from God of these things. And, some have a greater measure of it than others, but this does not make them "less Christian."


No, I don't... <smile> If God assures you, then you are assured, and you have His assurance... and He will not rescind it... <smile> The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (Romans 11:29)...


Why cannot both be true? Because they are... Yeah:

"Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, Who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross" (Philippians 2:5-11)

AND SO...

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12-13).


Yes...


They do. Not all are gifted in the same way... not all are apportioned to the same degree in any or all of the gifts of the Spirit. This is why God has given us each other, to encourage one another... for the common good, as Paul says... "to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good" (1 Corinthians 12:7).


I didn't ignore anything, I just dismissed your saying that... <smile> ...because that's not what Paul is saying; it doesn't indicate that. But you know it's not terribly important that we agree on this particular thing...


That's the only kind of faith Paul talks about. Wow.


Saving faith. <smile> Goodness gracious.


Even though God, by His Spirit, gives it... <chuckles>


There are, but it's one Spirit that empowers them all.


Yes, He does. He apportions them differently, according to His will. Paul mentions the gifts individually, and what he's saying in that is that some are stronger in this one or that one. and this is by design... His design. He designed us to need each other, and so that we might all be one, as He ~ the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ~ are one. Back to this in a moment...

How can you not even discern that not all of the spiritual gifts are given to all believers? Do you have the gifts of prophecy, ministry, teaching, exhortation, giving, leading, mercy, the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, faith, healing, working of miracles, discerning of spirits, speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues? No, you don't. No believer does. Each believer has one or more spiritual gifts, but no one has all of them. You are twisting 1 Corinthians 12:9 to fit your doctrine while ignoring the obvious, which is that each believer has his or her own spiritual gift(s) with not all believers having all of the spiritual gifts.

 

[PinSeeker]

So, you're saying the reason that people don't glorify God as God and aren't thankful to Him is that they cannot be willing to do so?

No. They are not willing to do so. They are only willing to do the devil's will. This is true of all people unless and until they are born again of the Spirit. It was true even of you and me at one time; we were children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God...

Why are you trying to give people an excuse for that when Paul said they are without excuse?

I am not; that's just you trying (in vain) to foist that upon me.

Yeah, and this proves what exactly in relation to what we're talking about?

Jesus's use of the word "unless," Spiritual Israelite, leaves no doubt that on thing must happen before the other so that the other can ~ and in that case does ~ happen.

And, you base this on what exactly?

Various passages of Scripture, Old Testament and New, which I've cited very clearly... over, and over, and over again.

I see no basis for thinking that being born again of the Holy Spirit comes before faith when the sealing of the Holy Spirit comes after faith.

Okay, fair enough. We disagree.

Where are you seeing that?

See above.

God predestined that anyone who would believe in Christ would be adopted as His children.

So in saying this, you're saying that God's will regarding our salvation depends on our will. Which is not true, according to the Word of God.

You cannot or will not acknowledge that someone can be willing to repent and believe in the heart/spirit without having to first be regenerated by the Spirit.

Oh, I've heard many folks say they're willing to believe but see no evidence of God, or Jesus, or the Gospel being true, and therefore believe it all to be foolishness... and I believe them...

That is not taught anywhere in scripture.

It is. Yet again... and not an exhaustive list:

• God says, "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules." (Ezekiel 11, 36)
• Jesus says, "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide..." (John 15:16)
• John says, "to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).
• Paul says:

• "...it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy" (Romans 9:16).
• "God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew... So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace" (Romans 9:16).
• "...He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will..." (Ephesians 1:4-5).
• "...you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:4-10)
• "I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Philippians 1:6).
• "...you were also raised with Him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our trespasses" (Colossians 2:12-13).
• "...we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction" (1 Thessalonians 1:4-5).
• "...formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 1:13-14).

• Peter says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5).
• The writer of Hebrews gives us the very definition of faith, "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (11:1), and then says, "let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith" (12:1-2).

We are given a new heart/spirit in order to do the good works God has prepared for us AFTER we become saved by grace through faith.

Nope. See directly above. Most clearly, "when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:4-10).

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

God graciously offers salvation to all people (Titus 2:11) and it's a genuine offer for all people that all people are capable of accepting, but they must choose to accept or reject it.

I have never argued against this.

You have God condemning and punishing people for not believing in Christ (John 3:18) for no reason...

In your opinion. I get it.

because you those people could not be willing to do so.

Yet again... "could not" in what sense, SI? Again, "could not" in the sense that they will not do so, and will thus purposely do the opposite... rather than "could not" in the sense that they are incapable of "being willing to do so" ~ which is kind of a clunky way to put it, but I'll go with it... <smile>. The fact is, everyone gets exactly as he/she chooses. Not that anyone chooses to be punished, of course, but that's not the choice.

God does not punish people for no reason. He punishes people for not doing what He commands them to do and what they should have done...

Have never argued with this either...

How can you not even discern that not all of the spiritual gifts are given to all believers?

I would ask you the same question, Spiritual Israelite, but that all the gifts are given to all believers, of course. Disagreement on this particular thing is very minor, it seems to me. But, I say, If we have the Spirit, then we have all His gifts. Some will be more dominant than others, and probably much more, even to the point one or more of His gifts not really being evident to others or even ourselves, or at least the point of us saying, "Yeah, I'm not good at (insert spiritual gift here) at all," or "I'm not as gifted with (insert spiritual gift here) as other Christians are..." or "I'm not as gifted with (insert spiritual gift here) as I'd like to be." But... we have the Spirit, Who, as Paul says, "apportions to each one individually as He wills" (v.11).

Do you have the gifts of prophecy, ministry, teaching, exhortation, giving, leading, mercy, the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, faith, healing, working of miracles, discerning of spirits, speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues?

Not all in the same proportion or to the same degree. That's a good list; let me ask you, do not all have faith? <wide eyes>

Each believer has one or more spiritual gifts...

One or more dominant spiritual gift. And, more gifted than others in certain things.

, but no one has all of them.

In your opinion. This is not a hill to die on, though, for either of us.

...each believer has his or her own spiritual gift(s) with not all believers having all of the spiritual gifts.

I understand your position.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

That blatantly contradicts the fact that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2) so that all people would have the opportunity to be saved, as God desires (1 Timothy 2:3-6).

Yes, and we've been here a thousand times. He did die for the sins of the world, and everyone in the sense of sufficiency... and even to make it possible for everyone. But... <smile> ...God gave Jesus who He gave Him; not all are His sheep, and of His sheep, given to Him by the Father, He will lose not one, but raise them up on the last day.

If this was true, Jesus would never have said that "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak". You say that someone spirit can't be willing to repent and believe unless they are given a new spirit, but scripture does not teach that.

Jesus was talking to his disciples there in Matthew 26, Spiritual Israelite. Do you suppose they were not yet saved at this point? Surely not...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No. They are not willing to do so. They are only willing to do the devil's will. This is true of all people unless and until they are born again of the Spirit. It was true even of you and me at one time; we were children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God...

You believe that they are not able to be willing to do so without being born again, right? So, how do you explain them not having any excuse for not doing so then? If the are not able to be willing to do so unless God makes them willing to do so, then that would be a very legitimate excuse for not doing so.

So in saying this, you're saying that God's will regarding our salvation depends on our will. Which is not true, according to the Word of God.

Yes, it is. God's will is that all people be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6), so the only way that can be a genuine desire is if all people are given a legitimate opportunity to be saved and if it's possible for every person to be saved. God chose to make man responsible to choose. Man had no say in how salvation would work. God alone determined that. Your doctrine makes God's desires for all people to repent and to bve saved disingenuous and that's not acceptable.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, and we've been here a thousand times. He did die for the sins of the world, and everyone in the sense of sufficiency... and even to make it possible for everyone. But... <smile> ...God gave Jesus who He gave Him; not all are His sheep, and of His sheep, given to Him by the Father, He will lose not one, but raise them up on the last day.

If it's not possible for everyone in the world to believe, as your doctrine teaches, then it can't be said that He died for the sins of the whole world. This sufficiency thing you talk about makes no sense whatsoever since you believe all who are not His sheep don't even get any opportunity at all to be saved.

Jesus was talking to his disciples there in Matthew 26, Spiritual Israelite. Do you suppose they were not yet saved at this point? Surely not...

Come on. He was speaking of what is generally true of everyone there. The spirit can be willing to repent and believe, but the flesh is weak and says no, keep sinning all you want and don't submit to God.