Matthew 18:1

[Aunty Jane]

'The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus,
of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
Until the day in which He was taken up,
after that He through the Holy Ghost
had given commandments unto the apostles whom He had chosen:
To whom also He shewed Himself alive after His passion by many infallible proofs,
being seen of them forty days,
and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:'
(Act 1:1-3)

Yes, I can see that Jesus was in no hurry to return to his Father until he had prepared his apostles and disciples for the rough road ahead…..but they still expected the Kingdom to be manifest on earth, in Jerusalem where the Temple was located, (and the demolition of which he foretold) even though Jesus had on many occasions tried to tell his apostles that he would have to die and be resurrected….Peter, out of concern told his master, that he “would not have that destiny at all”..…so clearly the apostles had yet to grasp the reasons why he had to offer his life for the sins of the world.

Jesus’ words to them as he was about to ascend to his Father were about the knowledge they possessed at the time and the knowledge that they would gain when the Holy Spirit was to empower them for the work ahead.…as he went on to tell them….
”So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction. 8 But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you, and you will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, in all Ju·deʹa and Sa·marʹi·a, and to the most distant part of the earth.” 9 After he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their sight.”

So their limited knowledge was about to change as the Holy Spirit later imparted to them knowledge that reinforced all that he had taught them…..and established that the Kingdom of God was to rule from heaven over redeemed mankind. (Rev 21:2-4) Christ’s elect were to be “chosen from among mankind as firstfruits”, (Rev 14:1-5) which these agricultural people knew well were the pick of the crop….but were followed by a secondary harvest.

With respect, the question asked (Acts 1:6), 'Lord, wilt Thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?' was a perfectly valid one: In the light of the fact that following His resurrection the Lord had spent 40 days teaching His disciples concerning the Kingdom of God: and if the preaching of Peter in Acts 3:19-21 had been heeded, and the people of Israel repented, then the Lord Jesus Christ would have returned, as was promised.

'Repent ye therefore, and be converted,
that your sins may be blotted out,
when the times of refreshing shall come
from the presence of the Lord;
And He shall send Jesus Christ,
which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive
until the times of restitution of all things,
which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets
since the world began.'
(Act 3:19-21)

I’m not convinced that this is true…..God’s promise to Abraham in the beginning was that “all the nations would be blessed” by the promised seed that would come from his lineage. (Gen 22:18)

We can see from the Scriptures that it was around 4000 years from Adam’s sin to the first coming of that seed, so time had to elapse for God’s prophesies to come to fulfillment…..and for the Jews to establish a written record of their conduct in accord with God’s instructions (or even a record of their failures, which were many)…….and here we are almost 2000 years since Christ died, and we are still waiting for his return as judge and executioner of God’s enemies.

Nothing God does is rushed or hasty because he has an unchangeable purpose, and sometimes his enemies will set up roadblocks and he will find a way around them, in order to bring his purpose to a successful conclusion, the outcome of which is already established in prophesy…..a bit like a destination that is reached by another route, when the way you were going to travel is closed to traffic. (Isa 55:11)

So the “restitution of all things” that was foretold, would come about in the stream of time allocated for that to take place. God already knew that his nation would not repent, which is why Jesus told them what he did in Matt 23:37-39. Once the Jews were given all the opportunity that God allowed them to accept his Messiah, he turned to the gentiles to make up the loss. (Acts 15:14) But it was always his purpose to do so.

Salvation began with the Jews, but it did not end with them….it was never going to. (Acts 4:20-23)
We know from the creation account that God brought all things into existence, incrementally….meaning that he allocated certain events for each creative “day“, and was satisfied with each achievement, even though the whole of creation on earth was not yet completed.

God’s view of time allows for many things to take place according to his will and purpose. He tells us what his will and purpose is, and how it is going to be achieved. The sad thing is, not many have any idea what the Bible says about these things.

 

[complete]

Yes, I can see that Jesus was in no hurry to return to his Father until he had prepared his apostles and disciples for the rough road ahead…..but they still expected the Kingdom to be manifest on earth, in Jerusalem where the Temple was located, (and the demolition of which he foretold) even though Jesus had on many occasions tried to tell his apostles that he would have to die and be resurrected….Peter, out of concern told his master, that he “would not have that destiny at all”..…so clearly the apostles had yet to grasp the reasons why he had to offer his life for the sins of the world.

Jesus’ words to them as he was about to ascend to his Father were about the knowledge they possessed at the time and the knowledge that they would gain when the Holy Spirit was to empower them for the work ahead.…as he went on to tell them….
”So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction. 8 But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you, and you will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, in all Ju·deʹa and Sa·marʹi·a, and to the most distant part of the earth.” 9 After he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their sight.”

So their limited knowledge was about to change as the Holy Spirit later imparted to them knowledge that reinforced all that he had taught them…..and established that the Kingdom of God was to rule from heaven over redeemed mankind. (Rev 21:2-4) Christ’s elect were to be “chosen from among mankind as firstfruits”, (Rev 14:1-5) which these agricultural people knew well were the pick of the crop….but were followed by a secondary harvest.

I’m not convinced that this is true…..God’s promise to Abraham in the beginning was that “all the nations would be blessed” by the promised seed that would come from his lineage. (Gen 22:18)

We can see from the Scriptures that it was around 4000 years from Adam’s sin to the first coming of that seed, so time had to elapse for God’s prophesies to come to fulfillment…..and for the Jews to establish a written record of their conduct in accord with God’s instructions (or even a record of their failures, which were many)…….and here we are almost 2000 years since Christ died, and we are still waiting for his return as judge and executioner of God’s enemies.

Nothing God does is rushed or hasty because he has an unchangeable purpose, and sometimes his enemies will set up roadblocks and he will find a way around them, in order to bring his purpose to a successful conclusion, the outcome of which is already established in prophesy…..a bit like a destination that is reached by another route, when the way you were going to travel is closed to traffic. (Isa 55:11)

So the “restitution of all things” that was foretold, would come about in the stream of time allocated for that to take place. God already knew that his nation would not repent, which is why Jesus told them what he did in Matt 23:37-39. Once the Jews were given all the opportunity that God allowed them to accept his Messiah, he turned to the gentiles to make up the loss. (Acts 15:14) But it was always his purpose to do so.

Salvation began with the Jews, but it did not end with them….it was never going to. (Acts 4:20-23)
We know from the creation account that God brought all things into existence, incrementally….meaning that he allocated certain events for each creative “day“, and was satisfied with each achievement, even though the whole of creation on earth was not yet completed.

God’s view of time allows for many things to take place according to his will and purpose. He tells us what his will and purpose is, and how it is going to be achieved. The sad thing is, not many have any idea what the Bible says about these things.

Hello @Aunty Jane,

Thank you for taking the time to make such a considered reply.

Yes, God gave Israel 40 years (a time of probation) during the Acts period, in which they were given every opportunity to come to repentance: Though with His foreknowledge He knew that they would not; Yet opportunity had to be given. Believing Gentiles were grafted into Israel's Olive tree, in Acts 10, with the intent of bringing life to an ailing tree, and to make Israel jealous and seek to emulate them. (Rom. 11:11) For the repentance of Israel is vital to God's plan and purpose, they must, and will ultimately, take up the role allotted to them, as Priests unto God to the nations. 'And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.'

As to Peter's call to Israel to repent in Acts 3:19-21, and the promise of the return of Christ should they do so: I don't believe that was an empty promise, but one that God would have honoured had they done so; but again, God knew the outcome of that preaching before it was spoken, so His will would be done in regard to the Gentile nations, and to Israel itself in due time.

I am so glad that God is all seeing and all knowing, and that there is nothing that He has not already foreseen, and provisioned for: what confidence it promotes, what assurance.

Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Aunty Jane]

For the repentance of Israel is vital to God's plan and purpose, they must, and will ultimately, take up the role allotted to them, as Priests unto God to the nations. 'And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.'

Hey complete……sorry for the length of this, but these are important topics……

I believe that Israel as a nation, lost their place in the Kingdom….because they were serial covenant breakers, giving God the right to declare it null and void.…but God was way ahead of satan in this….he chose a new “Israel” to take their place, and the apostle Paul outlines why he did it…..

If you are familiar with the dissension that arose in the first century, after certain opinionated Jews wanted to enforce Jewish law on gentiles, and mandate circumcision for them according to Jewish law, the apostles made it clear that Jewish law was only for Jews….God’s law was never given to any other nation. So after the matter was presented to the apostles and elders on Jerusalem for a final directive, this is how it played out….
Aimed primarily at the gentiles in their congregations, but giving a strong witness also to the Jewish members, who were either strongly protesting, or wondering whether this ideas had value….a decision based on Holy Spirit, scripture and heartfelt prayers, was made…..their decision silenced all in attendance.

Peter stood up and said…..
”Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.

Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, with the following letter: “The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings.

For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.” (Acts 15:19-20, 22-23, 28-29. ESV)

Acts 15:14 spoke about the inclusion of gentiles into the Christian congregation….
”Simeon (Peter) has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name.” (ESV) Previously, the only nation to carry the name of the one true God, (Yahweh), was the Jewish nation….but now God chose a new “Israel”….a faithful nation, who would obey the teachings of his son.

From that verdict made in Jerusalem, Paul took the matter further….when he spoke of what it meant to be a “Jew”…..not from the human standpoint, but from God’s viewpoint…..
”For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.” (Romans 2:28-29 ESV)

The natural Jews prided themselves on their lineage to Abraham, but ignored the need to exhibit the kind of faith that he did. Jewish history for the most part is a matter of shame in repeated periods of disobedience, and protracted excursions into false worship.

John the Baptist told the Jewish leadership that their lineage didn’t mean much unless they were repentant….

“But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.” (Matt 3:7-10 ESV)

So those waiting for natural Israel to turn to Christ, en masse as a nation, I believe, will be disappointed.
God wants repentance from the heart, not a forced conversion from fear of punishment.

God chose a new “Israel, once his purpose in connection with the descendants of Abraham was fulfilled.
He kept to his side of the covenant, even when they broke their side.

Then he gave them first option to become the “kingdom of priests and a holy nation“ that he promised them….but when they wickedly orchestrated the murder of their own savior, they signed their own death warrant. The axe fell….and it was final. (Matt 23:37-39)

As Paul said….
”But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.” (Rom 9:6-9 ESV)

“The children of the promise are counted as the offspring” of Abraham.

Many individuals from natural Israel did come to Christ in the first century, and still continue to do so, to this day, but “the Israel of God” that Paul spoke about, is made up of those who choose to accept Jesus as their savior, and these can come from all faiths, all nations, and all walks of life, just as those who converted to Judaism did in Bible times….however, all had to leave their former religious beliefs behind them, and accept the teachings of Jesus exclusively.

We have to know then, what Jesus taught, as opposed to what “the church” teaches. Why? Because Jesus said that Satan was going to set up a counterfeit Christianity in order to steal Christians away from God, in much the same way as he did to the Jewish system, resulting in the majority of the Jewish people rejecting Jesus as the “Christ”.
If we cannot tell the difference between “the wheat and the weeds”, then we are in trouble…..but we have the assurance that those who belong to Christ will not perish. He knows them, and they know him on a very personal level.

As to Peter's call to Israel to repent in Acts 3:19-21, and the promise of the return of Christ should they do so: I don't believe that was an empty promise, but one that God would have honoured had they done so; but again, God knew the outcome of that preaching before it was spoken, so His will would be done in regard to the Gentile nations, and to Israel itself in due time.

It’s a promise that God anticipated for the future, and he was one step ahead of the the one whom Jesus called the “father” of the Jewish religious leaders….(John 8:44)

I am so glad that God is all seeing and all knowing, and that there is nothing that He has not already foreseen, and provisioned for: what confidence it promotes, what assurance.

Agree 100%…he wants to save as many as can simply do as they are told…obedience is all he has ever asked of mankind.

 

[complete]

Hey complete……sorry for the length of this, but these are important topics……

I believe that Israel as a nation, lost their place in the Kingdom….because they were serial covenant breakers, giving God the right to declare it null and void.…but God was way ahead of satan in this….he chose a new “Israel” to take their place, and the apostle Paul outlines why he did it…..

If you are familiar with the dissension that arose in the first century, after certain opinionated Jews wanted to enforce Jewish law on gentiles, and mandate circumcision for them according to Jewish law, the apostles made it clear that Jewish law was only for Jews….God’s law was never given to any other nation. So after the matter was presented to the apostles and elders on Jerusalem for a final directive, this is how it played out….
Aimed primarily at the gentiles in their congregations, but giving a strong witness also to the Jewish members, who were either strongly protesting, or wondering whether this ideas had value….a decision based on Holy Spirit, scripture and heartfelt prayers, was made…..their decision silenced all in attendance.

Peter stood up and said…..
”Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.

Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, with the following letter: “The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings.

For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.” (Acts 15:19-20, 22-23, 28-29. ESV)

Acts 15:14 spoke about the inclusion of gentiles into the Christian congregation….
”Simeon (Peter) has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name.” (ESV) Previously, the only nation to carry the name of the one true God, (Yahweh), was the Jewish nation….but now God chose a new “Israel”….a faithful nation, who would obey the teachings of his son.

From that verdict made in Jerusalem, Paul took the matter further….when he spoke of what it meant to be a “Jew”…..not from the human standpoint, but from God’s viewpoint…..
”For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.” (Romans 2:28-29 ESV)

The natural Jews prided themselves on their lineage to Abraham, but ignored the need to exhibit the kind of faith that he did. Jewish history for the most part is a matter of shame in repeated periods of disobedience, and protracted excursions into false worship.

John the Baptist told the Jewish leadership that their lineage didn’t mean much unless they were repentant….

“But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.” (Matt 3:7-10 ESV)

So those waiting for natural Israel to turn to Christ, en masse as a nation, I believe, will be disappointed.
God wants repentance from the heart, not a forced conversion from fear of punishment.

God chose a new “Israel, once his purpose in connection with the descendants of Abraham was fulfilled.
He kept to his side of the covenant, even when they broke their side.

Then he gave them first option to become the “kingdom of priests and a holy nation“ that he promised them….but when they wickedly orchestrated the murder of their own savior, they signed their own death warrant. The axe fell….and it was final. (Matt 23:37-39)

As Paul said….
”But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.” (Rom 9:6-9 ESV)

“The children of the promise are counted as the offspring” of Abraham.

Many individuals from natural Israel did come to Christ in the first century, and still continue to do so, to this day, but “the Israel of God” that Paul spoke about, is made up of those who choose to accept Jesus as their savior, and these can come from all faiths, all nations, and all walks of life, just as those who converted to Judaism did in Bible times….however, all had to leave their former religious beliefs behind them, and accept the teachings of Jesus exclusively.

We have to know then, what Jesus taught, as opposed to what “the church” teaches. Why? Because Jesus said that Satan was going to set up a counterfeit Christianity in order to steal Christians away from God, in much the same way as he did to the Jewish system, resulting in the majority of the Jewish people rejecting Jesus as the “Christ”.
If we cannot tell the difference between “the wheat and the weeds”, then we are in trouble…..but we have the assurance that those who belong to Christ will not perish. He knows them, and they know him on a very personal level.


It’s a promise that God anticipated for the future, and he was one step ahead of the the one whom Jesus called the “father” of the Jewish religious leaders….(John 8:44)

Agree 100%…he wants to save as many as can simply do as they are told…obedience is all he has ever asked of mankind.

'I say then, Hath God cast away His People?
God forbid.
For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham,
of the tribe of Benjamin.
God hath not cast away His People which He foreknew. '
(Rom 11:1-2a)

Hello @Auntie Jane,

Thank you again for the time taken to respond as you have,

But with respect, Paul refutes all thought that God has cast away His people,' For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance'. Romans 11, in it's entirety, shows the wondrous plan of salvation that God has in place for both Gentile and Jew, and the brilliance of it's outworking, quite contrary to that of man. All Israel shall be saved, for God does not break His covenant promises. He is faithful that promised. Israel we are told by the Old Testament Prophets, and by the writers of the New, will come to repentance, and the new covenant will be made with them, and God will forgive all their sins, and be their God, and they will be His People. 'For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.' (Hebrews 8 & Jeremiah 31:31).

Praise God!

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[bdavidc]

But faith alone wont do you a bit of good. If faith was sufficient for salvation it wouldnt need completion by works. AGAIN you people see the word works and you go screaming into the night.

The Bible doesn’t teach that works complete faith in order for someone to be saved. It says, “For we are justified by faith without the deeds of the law” (Romans 3:28). That’s not an opinion; that’s Scripture. In fact, Ephesians 2: 8–9 is even more clear: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.”

The truth is, faith alone saves, but true saving faith never remains alone. If you have no works following salvation, then the faith that supposedly occurred was a fake to begin with. James never taught that works complete salvation. He taught that faith without works is dead (James 2: 17)–in other words, useless, counterfeit, not genuine faith. Like someone who claims to have faith in parachutes but refuses to wear one when jumping out of a plane. You can claim to believe, but your actions will show if it’s real.

Works don’t add to salvation. They are the proof of it. That’s why Jesus said, “Every good tree bringeth forth good fruit… Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them” (Matthew 7:17–20). But don’t confuse fruit with the root. The root is faith. The fruit is obedience. You don’t staple apples onto a dead tree and call it alive. You make sure the tree is rooted in Christ–and the fruit will follow.

So no, we don’t “scream into the night” at the word works. We just know the Bible teaches that they follow salvation, not that they cause it. If you believe your works are earning your way to heaven, then you’re denying the gospel and trusting in yourself. And that road leads to condemnation, not salvation.

“For not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us” (Titus 3:5). That’s the Word of God. Either submit to it, or keep trusting in yourself–and see where that leads you on judgment day.

Either you believe the Bible, or you invent your own version of Christianity. But let’s be clear: a gospel you make up will never save you. Only the truth can.

 

[nedsk]

The Bible doesn’t teach that works complete faith in order for someone to be saved. It says, “For we are justified by faith without the deeds of the law” (Romans 3:28). That’s not an opinion; that’s Scripture. In fact, Ephesians 2: 8–9 is even more clear: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.”

The truth is, faith alone saves, but true saving faith never remains alone. If you have no works following salvation, then the faith that supposedly occurred was a fake to begin with. James never taught that works complete salvation. He taught that faith without works is dead (James 2: 17)–in other words, useless, counterfeit, not genuine faith. Like someone who claims to have faith in parachutes but refuses to wear one when jumping out of a plane. You can claim to believe, but your actions will show if it’s real.

Works don’t add to salvation. They are the proof of it. That’s why Jesus said, “Every good tree bringeth forth good fruit… Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them” (Matthew 7:17–20). But don’t confuse fruit with the root. The root is faith. The fruit is obedience. You don’t staple apples onto a dead tree and call it alive. You make sure the tree is rooted in Christ–and the fruit will follow.

So no, we don’t “scream into the night” at the word works. We just know the Bible teaches that they follow salvation, not that they cause it. If you believe your works are earning your way to heaven, then you’re denying the gospel and trusting in yourself. And that road leads to condemnation, not salvation.

“For not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us” (Titus 3:5). That’s the Word of God. Either submit to it, or keep trusting in yourself–and see where that leads you on judgment day.

Either you believe the Bible, or you invent your own version of Christianity. But let’s be clear: a gospel you make up will never save you. Only the truth can.

Oh brother. If you dont think scripture teaches that works complete faith then with all due respect you cant read or you just ignore what scripture says. Maybe its both I dont know.

Works complete faith. Faith without works is dead.

I actually read the bible. You ignore the passages you dont like and focus on the ones you do like.

You people seems to confuse works with works of the law. They are not the same thing but you're not interested because you hear "works" and your head spins around. Its amazing how far people will go to ignore what they dont like.

 

[Aunty Jane]

with respect, Paul refutes all thought that God has cast away His people,' For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance'. Romans 11, in it's entirety, shows the wondrous plan of salvation that God has in place for both Gentile and Jew, and the brilliance of it's outworking, quite contrary to that of man. All Israel shall be saved, for God does not break His covenant promises.

Romans 11 is an interesting chapter, since Paul was the first apostle chosen to preach to the gentile nations, as well as to Israel, his assignment was a little different to that of the 12. When Jesus walked the earth with his chosen apostles, he was sent only to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”. His audience were exclusively Jewish, even though there were a few exceptional ones mentioned by him in the NT who were from other nations.

The nation of Israel was given first option to become what God had promised them…..”a royal priesthood and a holy nation”…..but their conduct disqualified them, time and again. Whatever repentance they manifested was short lived, and they fell away to apostasy many times, trying God’s patience to the limit.

Paul, as the writer of Romans, said that “all Israel” was going to be saved, but he called these ones “the Israel of God” at Galatians 6:16. This included gentiles. But if the natural Jews in the Republic of Israel today, (as opposed to the descendants of Abraham who could prove their lineage) do not make up “all Israel,” then who are its members? When Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE, all records were destroyed, so no one after that period could prove lineage to Abraham, or to any particular tribe. That means that there is no way to prove that anyone other than Jesus Christ had the necessary credentials to prove his claim to be the Messiah.
So in our day…who is Israel?
This question is an important one, as the natural Jews of today do not know to which of Israel’s 12 tribes they belong. They have rabbis but no priesthood, no high priest on earth, no temple at Jerusalem and no altar there on which to offer sacrifices according to the Law God gave to them through Moses, hence there also is no evidence that the God whose name they refuse to pronounce is with them any longer as a nation.
The situation in the Middle East confirms that the nation of Israel today does not have God’s sanction or blessing….if they did, they would not have to ally themselves with western nations, whose worship they despise.
Yet, the true God does have an Israel on earth, even in this 21st century.
This is spiritual Israel…not fleshly Israel.

He is faithful that promised. Israel we are told by the Old Testament Prophets, and by the writers of the New, will come to repentance, and the new covenant will be made with them, and God will forgive all their sins, and be their God, and they will be His People. 'For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.' (Hebrews 8 & Jeremiah 31:31).

Paul reiterated what the prophets of old had foretold….that only a “remnant“ of natural Israel would be saved.

Rom 9:27-33….
”And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.” What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written,“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

Taking into account all that Paul said….natural Israel’s goose is cooked. That is not to say that individuals from Israel cannot be saved, but as a national collective, I don’t see how God can forgive them, according to Paul’s words only a “remnant” of that nation are going to be saved. It is those who ‘believe in Jesus’ who will not be put to shame…..it is to those people whom God promised not to hold their nations sins against them…..so what of those who have never put faith in him?

Didn't John B say that lineage to Abraham was not as important as the Jews assumed it to be? (Matt 3:9)
Not a soul can prove it anyway.

 

[complete]

Romans 11 is an interesting chapter, since Paul was the first apostle chosen to preach to the gentile nations, as well as to Israel, his assignment was a little different to that of the 12. When Jesus walked the earth with his chosen apostles, he was sent only to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”. His audience were exclusively Jewish, even though there were a few exceptional ones mentioned by him in the NT who were from other nations.

The nation of Israel was given first option to become what God had promised them…..”a royal priesthood and a holy nation”…..but their conduct disqualified them, time and again. Whatever repentance they manifested was short lived, and they fell away to apostasy many times, trying God’s patience to the limit.

Paul, as the writer of Romans, said that “all Israel” was going to be saved, but he called these ones “the Israel of God” at Galatians 6:16. This included gentiles. But if the natural Jews in the Republic of Israel today, (as opposed to the descendants of Abraham who could prove their lineage) do not make up “all Israel,” then who are its members? When Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE, all records were destroyed, so no one after that period could prove lineage to Abraham, or to any particular tribe. That means that there is no way to prove that anyone other than Jesus Christ had the necessary credentials to prove his claim to be the Messiah.
So in our day…who is Israel?
This question is an important one, as the natural Jews of today do not know to which of Israel’s 12 tribes they belong. They have rabbis but no priesthood, no high priest on earth, no temple at Jerusalem and no altar there on which to offer sacrifices according to the Law God gave to them through Moses, hence there also is no evidence that the God whose name they refuse to pronounce is with them any longer as a nation.
The situation in the Middle East confirms that the nation of Israel today does not have God’s sanction or blessing….if they did, they would not have to ally themselves with western nations, whose worship they despise.
Yet, the true God does have an Israel on earth, even in this 21st century.
This is spiritual Israel…not fleshly Israel.

Paul reiterated what the prophets of old had foretold….that only a “remnant“ of natural Israel would be saved.

Rom 9:27-33….
”And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.” What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written,“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

Taking into account all that Paul said….natural Israel’s goose is cooked. That is not to say that individuals from Israel cannot be saved, but as a national collective, I don’t see how God can forgive them, according to Paul’s words only a “remnant” of that nation are going to be saved. It is those who ‘believe in Jesus’ who will not be put to shame…..it is to those people whom God promised not to hold their nations sins against them…..so what of those who have never put faith in him?

Didn't John B say that lineage to Abraham was not as important as the Jews assumed it to be? (Matt 3:9)
Not a soul can prove it anyway.

Hello @Auntie Jane,

I must respectfully disagree with your reasoning.

Thankfully, God knows, and His will, will be done.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Now risen and glorified,
and sat at God's right hand.
Chris

 

[bdavidc]

Oh brother. If you dont think scripture teaches that works complete faith then with all due respect you cant read or you just ignore what scripture says. Maybe its both I dont know.

Works complete faith. Faith without works is dead.

I actually read the bible. You ignore the passages you dont like and focus on the ones you do like.

You people seems to confuse works with works of the law. They are not the same thing but you're not interested because you hear "works" and your head spins around. Its amazing how far people will go to ignore what they dont like.

The Bible is crystal clear: works do not save anyone, but saving faith never remains inactive. Anyone who insists works complete faith in a salvific sense, in that they are necessary in order to be saved, is distorting Scripture and substituting grace with a works mentality. Let’s run through some of what the Bible actually says, in context, not taken out of context and not with an emotional retort.

Ephesians 2: 8–9 plainly reads, “For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.” Full stop. Salvation is by grace, through faith, not of works–period. But then it pivots in the very next verse to show the importance of works by saying, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (Ephesians 2:10). Works do follow salvation, but they are the result, not the requirement.

James 2: 17 says, “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” The result of saving faith is not saving works, but if your faith is alive, it will be evidenced in your works. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness (Genesis 15: 6), before he even went through the test of offering up Isaac. James quotes this in James 2: 21–23 to prove that when we have saving faith it will be evidenced by our obedience. Abraham’s offering of Isaac did not earn him righteousness. It proved his faith was authentic.

Titus 3: 5 even more plainly says, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us.” There is no wiggle room. Your righteous works did not get you saved. Romans 4: 4–5: “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

Salvation is by faith alone and if you’re teaching that works complete faith in order for it to be saving, you are directly opposing the gospel message. Your faith does not require works to get God to accept it. He already has, based on what Christ did. He will require works of you in a perfect world, but those will be the fruit of your salvation, not a requirement of it. Any believer who insists on works as necessary to salvation has not understood grace and is most assuredly preaching a different gospel (Galatians 1:6–9).

Justification before God is one thing, evidence of faith before men is another. God looks at the heart, we see the fruit. If there’s no fruit it is proof there was no root. Works are not a requirement to earn salvation, they are a result of true salvation. If this offends you, fight with the Word of God, not those of us who simply believe and teach what it says.

 

[soberxp]

The disciples asked ‘who is the greatest in heaven?’ I find this a very odd question.
I think in Matthew 5 Jesus explained who the greatest and least are. I’m assuming chronologically Matthew 5 occurred before Matthew 18. Was it Jesus who first brought up the existence of a hierarchy in heaven?
It seems the disciples felt it was not enough to be one of the chosen here on earth, but they must maintain that status in heaven.
Is doing the things that will get me into the kingdom of heaven not enough that I should strive instead to be considered the greatest? Maybe it’s just me, but trying to be holier than thou seems a bit prideful.

If you truly love others then you are the greatest, I think that I am not the one.

 

[nedsk]

The Bible is crystal clear: works do not save anyone, but saving faith never remains inactive. Anyone who insists works complete faith in a salvific sense, in that they are necessary in order to be saved, is distorting Scripture and substituting grace with a works mentality. Let’s run through some of what the Bible actually says, in context, not taken out of context and not with an emotional retort.

Ephesians 2: 8–9 plainly reads, “For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.” Full stop. Salvation is by grace, through faith, not of works–period. But then it pivots in the very next verse to show the importance of works by saying, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (Ephesians 2:10). Works do follow salvation, but they are the result, not the requirement.

James 2: 17 says, “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” The result of saving faith is not saving works, but if your faith is alive, it will be evidenced in your works. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness (Genesis 15: 6), before he even went through the test of offering up Isaac. James quotes this in James 2: 21–23 to prove that when we have saving faith it will be evidenced by our obedience. Abraham’s offering of Isaac did not earn him righteousness. It proved his faith was authentic.

Titus 3: 5 even more plainly says, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us.” There is no wiggle room. Your righteous works did not get you saved. Romans 4: 4–5: “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

Salvation is by faith alone and if you’re teaching that works complete faith in order for it to be saving, you are directly opposing the gospel message. Your faith does not require works to get God to accept it. He already has, based on what Christ did. He will require works of you in a perfect world, but those will be the fruit of your salvation, not a requirement of it. Any believer who insists on works as necessary to salvation has not understood grace and is most assuredly preaching a different gospel (Galatians 1:6–9).

Justification before God is one thing, evidence of faith before men is another. God looks at the heart, we see the fruit. If there’s no fruit it is proof there was no root. Works are not a requirement to earn salvation, they are a result of true salvation. If this offends you, fight with the Word of God, not those of us who simply believe and teach what it says.

I didnt read after the first sentence because you people ALWAYS do this.

I challenge you to go and find something I wrote on this thread or entire forum where I say works save anyone. Then copy it and paste in your very next reply to me. If you dont do that then stop replying to me. I will not engage with you if you dont show where I made such a claim. You people lose any ability to think

 

[Aunty Jane]

If you truly love others then you are the greatest, I think that I am not the one.

Can you clarify that statement? Why are you “not the one”?

We are to love others as Jesus did.....yet he didn’t love everyone....the religious leaders who misled his people into apostasy, were not loved by God, nor were they loved by Jesus....he condemned them to “Gehenna”......which is not “hell” but everlasting death......the opposite of everlasting life.

There are things that God hates.....but they are actions, not the people themselves who can always have a change of heart and become beloved to him. He offers his truth to all, but not all will accept it.

That doesn’t mean that we can be the ones to judge others and demand acceptance to those who disagree with our beliefs. We all have the freedom to believe whatever is in our hearts to accept as truth, but that doesn’t mean that something must be true, just because we believe it to be. God will not alter his truth to suit us...it is we who have to alter our perceptions, thoughts and actions to accept his truth...because it’s the only one that matters.

Jesus had one truth to teach, and he imparted that truth to his disciples with the instruction to pass it on to others.....that is all we are asked to do...to be messengers of that truth. It is offered but not forced.

Jesus corrected those who had any wrong ideas through misconception, because God’s truth was dispensed incrementally to his people, meaning that the “sacred mystery” was revealed gradually over time, and revealed when it was God’s due time to do so. (Rom 16:25-26)
We see the values of the written word in his revelations.....unlike oral traditions that can be altered many times over many centuries, God’s word is his, and no one can alter its message.

Even though Jesus said that love would disappear from the world in these last days, (Matt 24:12) it was never to disappear among his disciples because he said that they would be identified by “the love they have for one another”. (John 13:34-35)
So what does that mean for Christendom?.....”a house divided against itself”. (Matt 12:25)

 

[soberxp]

Can you clarify that statement? Why are you “not the one”?

We are to love others as Jesus did.....yet he didn’t love everyone....the religious leaders who misled his people into apostasy, were not loved by God, nor were they loved by Jesus....he condemned them to “Gehenna”......which is not “hell” but everlasting death......the opposite of everlasting life.

There are things that God hates.....but they are actions, not the people themselves who can always have a change of heart and become beloved to him. He offers his truth to all, but not all will accept it.

That doesn’t mean that we can be the ones to judge others and demand acceptance to those who disagree with our beliefs. We all have the freedom to believe whatever is in our hearts to accept as truth, but that doesn’t mean that something must be true, just because we believe it to be. God will not alter his truth to suit us...it is we who have to alter our perceptions, thoughts and actions to accept his truth...because it’s the only one that matters.

Jesus had one truth to teach, and he imparted that truth to his disciples with the instruction to pass it on to others.....that is all we are asked to do...to be messengers of that truth. It is offered but not forced.

Jesus corrected those who had any wrong ideas through misconception, because God’s truth was dispensed incrementally to his people, meaning that the “sacred mystery” was revealed gradually over time, and revealed when it was God’s due time to do so. (Rom 16:25-26)
We see the values of the written word in his revelations.....unlike oral traditions that can be altered many times over many centuries, God’s word is his, and no one can alter its message.

Even though Jesus said that love would disappear from the world in these last days, (Matt 24:12) it was never to disappear among his disciples because he said that they would be identified by “the love they have for one another”. (John 13:34-35)
So what does that mean for Christendom?.....”a house divided against itself”. (Matt 12:25)

哥林多前书 1 Corinthians 13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
如今常存的有信，有望，有爱；这三样，其中最大的是爱。

 

[Aunty Jane]

哥林多前书 1 Corinthians 13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
如今常存的有信，有望，有爱；这三样，其中最大的是爱。

I don’t know what the word “charity” means in Chinese, but the most common definition of that word in English means “an organization that helps people in need” A “charitable” person is one who gives either materially or offers their services to the disadvantaged, as an act of love without reward.

The word in Greek is “agapē”…. and it is one of the four Greek words that are translated as “love”.

”Charity” in today’s English is not the same as the “love” in love songs…..that is “eros”.….

“Agapē” is basically love based on principle, it is strong and loyal, but not necessarily needing warm affection, but it is an enduring love based on factors outside of personal relationships, unlike the other three Greek words.

“Agape” is a love that you can render even to an enemy, such as Jesus stated in Matt 5:44,

So in the Scripture you quoted, the “charity” is actually strong and abiding love, based on principles rather than just feelings. Love is God’s principal quality….he is the epitome of love.

 

[soberxp]

I don’t know what the word “charity” means in Chinese, but the most common definition of that word in English means “an organization that helps people in need” A “charitable” person is one who gives either materially or offers their services to the disadvantaged, as an act of love without reward.

The word in Greek is “agapē”…. and it is one of the four Greek words that are translated as “love”.

”Charity” in today’s English is not the same as the “love” in love songs…..that is “eros”.….

“Agapē” is basically love based on principle, it is strong and loyal, but not necessarily needing warm affection, but it is an enduring love based on factors outside of personal relationships, unlike the other three Greek words.

“Agape” is a love that you can render even to an enemy, such as Jesus stated in Matt 5:44,

So in the Scripture you quoted, the “charity” is actually strong and abiding love, based on principles rather than just feelings. Love is God’s principal quality….he is the epitome of love.

I know, I know—my mind is coldly rational, and I've become too numb to feel love.

God would rather have me either hot or cold.

BUT.....

 

[Aunty Jane]

I know, I know—my mind is coldly rational, and I've become too numb to feel love.

Cold rationality is sometimes preferable to overworked emotionalism. We need knowledge along with our feelings….knowledge is key, which is why Jesus preached his message and sent his disciples out to do the same. (Rom 10:14-15)

God would rather have me either hot or cold.

BUT.....

Yes, he would rather not have “luke warm” worshippers who are easily swayed by the whims and teachings of men….
If we stick to the Scriptures and reject all those teachings and traditions of men, that pulled the Jews away from Jesus, we can pray for God to direct us, and open our hearts to his truth, which cannot be refuted...only ignored.
There is no “BUT”…..unless we create one.

 

[soberxp]

Cold rationality is sometimes preferable to overworked emotionalism. We need knowledge along with our feelings….knowledge is key, which is why Jesus preached his message and sent his disciples out to do the same. (Rom 10:14-15)

Yes, he would rather not have “luke warm” worshippers who are easily swayed by the whims and teachings of men….
If we stick to the Scriptures and reject all those teachings and traditions of men, that pulled the Jews away from Jesus, we can pray for God to direct us, and open our hearts to his truth, which cannot be refuted...only ignored.
There is no “BUT”…..unless we create one.

I just want to say, but the world made me who I am, I don't know whether to blame the world or myself, but I really live very numb.

It's as if I alone have seen through the very essence of this world and witnessed its inevitable end. Yet people continue living in their so-called happiness and prosperity, blissfully convinced that everything is moving toward a better future—while I already foresee a disastrous conclusion, even though its arrival still seems far away.

"Just as the words of Revelation cannot be altered—this is humanity's inescapable fate."

And I've never had a life in heaven.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I just want to say, but the world made me who I am, I don't know whether to blame the world or myself, but I really live very numb.

Its a world that the devil created, not God. This system of man’s corrupt and unjust rulership is not God’s creation. The life he had planned for us was idyllic…in a paradise where all would love one another and appreciate all that the Creator made to share life with us here. We humans are unique in being made in God’s image….but it gives us pain in our heart when we see what humanity is doing to God’s creation and abusing that creation in so many ways. Greed drives everything and love is almost non existent in man’s dealings with other men.…as Solomon said….”man’s inhumanity to man” reveals the flaws in our character.

But appreciating why we are experiencing the trials of this life, helps is to see the bigger picture.
It is not without purpose that God has exposed us to the evil that was chosen in the garden of Eden.
We apparently could not be told that obeying God was for our benefit, so we had to be shown where disobedience leads us. Will we ever want to live in this kind of godless world again?

It's as if I alone have seen through the very essence of this world and witnessed its inevitable end. Yet people continue living in their so-called happiness and prosperity, blissfully convinced that everything is moving toward a better future—while I already foresee a disastrous conclusion, even though its arrival still seems far away.

I don’t believe that anyone can find genuine happiness in this world apart from the hope God gives us of something better to come. It will be the “restoration of all things” that Jesus foretold….the life we lost will be restored, and the human race redeemed by Christ’s sacrifice will finally live “the real life”, not this poor excuse for an existence, at the mercy of corrupt men with too much wealth and power.

"Just as the words of Revelation cannot be altered—this is humanity's inescapable fate."

God’s Kingdom will “come” and with Jesus and his anointed ones, will destroy all wickedness and those who promote it. (Matt 6:9-10: Dan 2:44) Only then can God’s “will be done on earth as it is in heaven.”

This is the bad news for those who reject the Christ, but it is good news for those who yearn for the life we had taken away from us, so long ago. God’s battle with the devil will continue until the end comes and he is put away for a thousand years. (Rev 20:1-3) In the meantime his attack on those who do not fall for his lies and deceptions will continue to intensify…..but the end will come, right on time, and those who have “endured” will be rewarded. (Matt 24:13)

And I've never had a life in heaven.

God did not create us to live in heaven…..we are created to live forever on earth…and the earth was created to provide all we need to live a wonderful life here as God first intended.