Only the Apostles were Predestined
- Thread starter 1stCenturyLady
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I do see your point 1stCenturyLady. In some ways i see how you could be right, but in other ways I disagree. Now I understand the significance of your name: 1st Century Lady. Yet that is inserting yourself as a 1st Century Lady? My husband is so hyper focused on the first century where sometimes I grow discouraged as if NOTHING applies or is helpful for today, where NOTHING speaks for or unto those today but instead it’s all past history…only to those of the first century which then we say we are? While I do agree in the significance of the first century, I also feel we can get tunnel vision to where we exclude today.
You mentioned it being misapplied that no one can snatch them out of His hands ..for they are those(first, and only?) given unto Him of the Father.
Then John 10: 1 where ‘the sheep hear His Voice and he calls his own by name and leads them out’ only allowed to those given unto Him of the Father. —when He bright His own out. Yes He has other sheep not of this fold. he must bring them, also so, there will be One Fold, One Shepherd.
Why separate what God has joined together? Making One Spirit.
John also says ‘ a hired hand who does NOT own the sheep’ this implies Jesus whom is the good shepherd does own the sheep…if we exclude all given unto Jesus of the Father as only twelve apostles and only those can not be snatched out of His hands…then that the thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy is not to us either. For it is the thief who comes to snatch them out from His hand.
You said:
We are those who believed their words, but not predestined as the Apostles were.
I see your point but if “predestined” is in regards to all the Father has given unto Him…would that not include the other sheep He must bring that there be One Fold, One shepherd?
All things are His?? 1 Corinthians 3:21-23 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; [22] Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; [23] And you are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
Not to us? We don’t belong to Christ, given unto Him of the Father? As in when Jesus said none can come to the Father unless it be given? Why write that Hope out of: One Body, One Fold, One Shepherd?
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Earburner
Well-Known Member
What I revealed is a lie?? You are just in denial.
You need to think your own foul concept through, and then just "mirror" it over on to the unsaved. The results?
What you think God DID for the Saved in the positive, is exactly what He did for the Unsaved in the negative.
If God predestinated the Saved to be saved, then by default, He predestinated all the Unsaved to be unsaved.
You can't have one without the other.
For example:
If I knowingly have an apple orchard of 20 trees caught in a violent storm, and I knowingly preselect/predestinate only 5 trees to be saved, did I not knowingly preselect/predestinate the 15 other trees to be destroyed?
Yes, I did, because I knew that I had a total of 20 trees.
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It is your soul and spirit that is born again. They make up our nature. When Jesus cleanses our sin, He didn't leave us with a sin nature, David. What good would that do us? NO! Jesus makes us free from sin with a new nature. Anyone who does not have this freedom from sin has NOT been born again. I know. I went to church for 30 years before I was saved! And you are wrong and duped. Jesus was the first to be sinless out of MANY BRETHREN. Romans 8:29-30, 1 John 3:4-9. We don't keep sinning lawlessly because of some invisibility cloak the blood of Jesus puts over us. NO. Jesus TAKES AWAY our sin in reality. The whole desire!
David, you'll never find truth until you chuck everything you've learned in church and read God's Covenant to us, the New Testament, slowly and deliberately to want to know God and His nature that He had His Son die for us to become conformed to His image. He made it easy by taking away the sin in our nature. We are new creatures.
I saw you quote out of Romans 7:14-25. Have you also been taught that I'm a liar because of 1 John 1:8? What messed up theology you've swallowed, hook, line, and the whole lake of fire.
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
JESUS Says: Thy word is Truth"
Currently you are opposing the words of Christ = The Truth = John 6:43-44
Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
I don't think we will ever lead believers in works salvation,conditional reprieve, in Jesus.
Compound that error with the idea God's laws are void when saved by works, I don't think any passage will assist to correct those compounded errors.
Lawless works salvation is not in the Bible. What is in the Bible is overlooked or wilfully ignored.
God leads us to understanding.
Or,not.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
PLEASE let me know how you understand John 6:43-44
We are in CHRIST and His Spirit is with us when we, with open hearts, seek His Truth
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
To mean exactly what it says my friend .
But the question we all need to be asking is
What jesus has one been drawn too .
Because many have come and have fallen in love
with a jesus , MY OH MY its not JESUS , ITS satan cloaked in wool and love .
We need to be examining what jesus we been in love with my friend .
Any jesus that contradicts TRUTH , His words , scriptures ,
Oh my IT AINT JESUS at all . the real question is
what god or GOD has been who we been following all along .
what jesus OR JESUS has one been following all along .
FOR MORE INFO on what GOD , WHAT CHRIST
THE BIBLE IS FULL OF HIS WORDS . many twist it , many omit and choose parts
and they DO NOT KNOW HIM , DO NOT LOVE HIM and are NOT HIS and are only in deadly danger of damnation .
The TRUTH shall make you free.
John 8:32, 34-36
32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
Free from what, David? SIN!!!
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
David, Jesus is speaking of the 12 disciples. They are the only ones that cannot be snatched out of the Father's hand. Not necessarily to be saved as with Judas, but to do His will.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Sorry but the bible is Gods perspective. We are not granted the privilege of interpreting it according to "our perspective".
2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Your critical thinking skills are flawed by sin- they arenot to be trusted in reinterpreting the Word of God.
Proverbs 16:25
There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Subject: Clarification
Hi Ronald, Just to clarify—since I’ve been open about my thoughts, there isn’t really a private interpretation to consider. It’s a bit amusing when you think about it!
Best regards, Matthew
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
That is your opinion and it is false. All are born lost, god chose who would be saved and left the rest ;lost. He gave the way out, if people choose some other way- they lose.
Your logic is humanly flawed for you forgfet these truths of god:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 4:10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
To use your flawed example, god provided the means to save all 20 trees, but the orchard owner chose to save just 5
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
Your thoughts are admittedly a private interpretation in that those thoughts do not comport with what God says.
What is there to find amusing in that?
Earburner
Well-Known Member
The point of my story (post #143):
Please notice John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
There is NOTHING in verse 16 that reveals any kind of predestination of anyone at anytime.
In fact, the word whosoever reveals that ALL SHALL HAVE EQUAL opportunity to be saved without any persuasion for predestination of any kind by God..
Back to my orchard story #143:
Since 5 apple trees were predestinated to be saved, and 15 were predestinated to be destroyed, none had a say as to how they wanted to end up.
In other words, there was no one who was a "whosoever". All were "slotted" (predestinated) by God, as to how they would end up.
NO!! I do not see predestination your way.
Edit:
Now, in John 3:18 can you see HOW the unsaved were predestinated by God for destruction, ever since Adam and the Garden of Eden?
As a clue, two words give the answer away in John 3:18
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
OK = GREAT
Now go back to John 6:43-44 and SEE something ULTRA IMPORTANT = let me know if you SEE it
Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
@Earburner
This is truth whether you realize it or not. God actually created two groups of people purposely, #1 The vessels of Mercy who were designed in His Eternal Purpose to be recipients of His Mercy, even from everlasting to everlasting Ps 103:17
17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;
Again these are vessels of mercy Rom 9:
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
On the flip side, He also created in His Purpose the vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction. He never designed them for mercy and glory, but wrath and destruction,
So His predestination of the unsaved to hell was more than just by default, its was predetermined, He made them for that, and Himself Prov 16:4
4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Compare to Jer 17:18
Let them be confounded that persecute me, but let not me be confounded: let them be dismayed, but let not me be dismayed: bring upon them the day of evil, and destroy them with double destruction.
This is truth whether you realize it or not. God actually created two groups of people purposely, #1 The vessels of Mercy who were designed in His Eternal Purpose to be recipients of His Mercy, even from everlasting to everlasting Ps 103:17
17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;
Again these are vessels of mercy Rom 9:
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
On the flip side, He also created in His Purpose the vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction. He never designed them for mercy and glory, but wrath and destruction,
So His predestination of the unsaved to hell was more than just by default, its was predetermined, He made them for that, and Himself Prov 16:4
4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Compare to Jer 17:18
Let them be confounded that persecute me, but let not me be confounded: let them be dismayed, but let not me be dismayed: bring upon them the day of evil, and destroy them with double destruction.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
I fully comprehend what you and the scriptures are saying. I am not contesting anyone or scripture. I am contesting the "religious" concept of how "predestination" is being misunderstood, misapplied and misused.
First and foremost, all should know that both Adam and Eve were 100% innocent when God created them.
In my post #156 I pointed all to John 3:18 so that through Adam, all would see how it is that by Adam's fall into sin, WE ALL were predestinated into death by God, aka "condemned already".
Gen. 3
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, LEST HE put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:
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@Earburner
Yep all the time
This is not accurate Jn 3:18 doesnt say anything about predestination, also the vessels of mercy Rom 9 were always predestined to glory Rom 9:23
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Yep all the time
This is not accurate Jn 3:18 doesnt say anything about predestination, also the vessels of mercy Rom 9 were always predestined to glory Rom 9:23
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
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