Is it possible to lose salvation?
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
the list of what
the works one must do to be saved.
that would be good to know. do you have them?
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
The sinners prayer seems to be popular in television ministries. Yet,it doesn't exist in the Bible.
I think the problem is those who think they must act as coredemptors with God haven't actually read the whole of the new testament.
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
Please stop making a false Christ in your image and likeness.Panda, please stop blaming others for your lack of understanding of Scripture, Christ said a lot more than just a few verses and like a puzzle, you cant see the whole picture if you are missing pieces. you are misquoting scripture in a limited way and also accusing other that try to help you understand
Following Jesus is far more than a simply believing in him, it starts there but you must be transformed by his words and listen to him, to ALL he said.
I have written a little post on this please have a look I simply ask you to keep an open mind and consider what the words of Jesus as a whole truly say. simply believing and doing nothing about it is not the way.
here is the link;
The Way to Salvation
The Way to Salvation Salvation is not a single moment of belief but a journey that begins with God's call and continues with faith, obedience, and endurance until the end. Jesus and His disciples taught that true followers of God would remain faithful throughout their lives. This journey unfolds...www.christianityboard.com
Christians respect God's word. We don't warp it so to turn it on itself and deny Jesus.
Please stop that.
Thank you.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
remember, the pharisee could quote the OT. but they did not know (understand) it
Many people read the bible and can quote verses all over the place. but do not understand what it is they are reading
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
Isn't that in God's word too?
What does 1 Corinthians 2:14 mean? | BibleRef.com
But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. - What is the meaning of 1 Corinthians 2:14?
www.bibleref.com
The natural mind cannot understand the things of God because they are spiritually discerned, meaning that only those with the Spirit of God can truly grasp these truths. This concept is highlighted in 1 Corinthians 2:14, which states that the natural person considers spiritual truths to be foolishness.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
true But I believe with the help of God all people can understand the gospel. so they can make an informed decision to trust God and receive him, or in unbelief reject God and stay condemnedIsn't that in God's word too?
What does 1 Corinthians 2:14 mean? | BibleRef.com
But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. - What is the meaning of 1 Corinthians 2:14?www.bibleref.com
The natural mind cannot understand the things of God because they are spiritually discerned, meaning that only those with the Spirit of God can truly grasp these truths. This concept is highlighted in 1 Corinthians 2:14, which states that the natural person considers spiritual truths to be foolishness.
remember Jesus said you do not see because you do not believe. Yet they witnessed him and heard the same words the believers did.
God did not keep the truth from them
Just more deflection? Well, you're consistent, at least...
Why was Paul writing the above to the Christians at Corinth? Because they were living after the manner of people who had been washed, sanctified and justified by the Holy Spirit (vs. 11)? Obviously, if they had been, Paul's remarks here would not have been necessary. And so, he wonders at their apparent ignorance concerning their sinful living, asking the believers at Corinth if they were unaware that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. He'd already scolded them for being "carnal babes in Christ," partisan and divisive believers fighting over which spiritual leader was greatest (chapter 3), and he'd rebuked them for allowing gross sexual sin in their midst and actually being puffed up about it (chapter 5).
Given the infamy of Corinth, its reputation for temple prostitution, and knowing that those in the church at Corinth had formerly participated in the wickedness of Corinth's many pagan temple rites, Paul takes pains to explain why continuing in such sin was forbidden to Spirit-indwelt believers. Paul writes to the believers at Corinth, however, in a way that strongly implies that, though truly born-again, they were still involved in sexual sin:
1 Corinthians 6:15-20
Do you not know that your bodies are parts of Christ? Shall I then take away the parts of Christ and make them parts of a prostitute? Far from it!
16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.”
17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
18 Flee sexual immorality. Every other sin that a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.
19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
20 For you have been bought for a price: therefore glorify God in your body.
Obviously, Paul is making this explanation to the believers at Corinth because they were not living as those who had been "bought with a price" and made "temples of the Holy Spirit." Certainly, Paul's remarks in chapters 3 and 5 make this very clear. What's pertinent to the thread in all this, though, is that Paul has indicated that Christians can - and do - live in gross sin. Despite their sin, Paul addresses the Corinthian believers as "brethren," God's "field and building," those who "belong to Christ," "temples of the Holy Spirit," and so on. As far as Paul was concerned, the deep sin of the Christians at Corinth had not dissolved their salvation.
But this defies your contention, @GodsGrace, that Christians MUST not sin or their salvation is forfeit. And because your contention is glaringly in error, @GodsGrace, Paul spends much of his first letter to the sinning believers at Corinth instructing them about what they should and should not, be doing.
All of this also highlights the unanswerable problem that the works-salvation crowd has: How much sin dissolves one's salvation? Though the believer's at Corinth were guilty of quite awful sin, Paul still considered them brethren. But, given the moral standard you've been equivocating about, @GodsGrace, you seem to be indicating that these believers could NOT have been saved:
"...those that DO NOT obey God WILL forfeit their salvation."
"...Christians that do NOT obey the Moral Law will not be seeing heaven."
"To remain in Christ means to obey Him and further the Kingdom of God by bearing fruit."
"Faith, without good works, is a DEAD faith.
A dead faith
is
No faith.
No faith.
No salvation."
"Satan's greatest lie is that we could disobey God and still be saved.
Those who believe in God will be saved....
Those who do not obey God will see the wrath of God.
John 3.36"
All of these statements above that you made @GodsGrace, Paul has defied, calling those guilty of gross, persistent sin "brethren," and "in Christ" and "temples of the Holy Spirit." Who has the wrong end of the stick in this matter of sin and salvation? The second greatest contributor to the NT? I think not.
And so, recognizing the indefensibility of your statements above, you equivocate on them:
"What a strawman argument!
Who EVER said anything about being perfect??"
"So if you teach that we don't really need to obey God....
because, gee, that would mean we'd have to be perfect (strawman used by many on these forums)"
It's just bald-faced gaslighting to write what you have above, making unequivocal, unqualified statements like "...those that DO NOT obey God WILL forfeit their salvation" and "...Christians that do NOT obey the Moral Law will not be seeing heaven," then making out like you didn't, claiming your opponents are just Strawmanning you.
Your equivocation on works-salvation highlights how impossible it is to take the radical line you do against OSAS. You've stated that disobedience to God's law forfeits one's salvation but you have no idea how much obedience is enough to retain one's salvation, or how much disobedience unsaves a person. You know perfection is impossible, though you frame your statements as though perfection is the standard; so, then, how much imperfection results in one's salvation being lost? Tell us where the line is. Have you crossed it? How do you know if you have, or haven't? God's standard is perfection. What's yours?
Matthew 5:48
48 Therefore you shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
What makes anyone "clean" enough to stand in God's presence? Only perfection will do (see above). But you've properly indicated that perfection is not possible for any child of God. So, then, what allows the imperfect believer to be accepted by a God who demands perfection?
1 Corinthians 6:11
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
1 Corinthians 1:30-31
30 But it is due to Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
31 so that, just as it is written: “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
Titus 3:5-7
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we did in righteousness, but in accordance with His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He richly poured out upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Hebrews 9:11-14
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things having come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made by hands, that is, not of this creation;
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all time, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,
14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
As I've shown from God's word several times now in this thread, God accepts us, imperfect though we are in-and-of ourselves, because we have been placed "in Christ" by the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:1-13; Ro. 13:14; Ga. 3:27, 2 Co. 5:17), Christ's shed blood cleansing us from the stain of our sin and his cross separating us from the source of all our sin, the Old Self (Ro. 6:1-11; Ga. 2:20; 5:24; Col. 3:1-5). It is SOLELY on this basis that God accepts any of us.
When, then, God in His word enjoins His children to cleanse their lives of sin, He does so because inwardly, spiritually, they are already perfectly sanctified, perfectly "clean" in His Son, Jesus Christ. Their process of practical sanctification is not the means of their salvation, of course, but its effect, enabled only by the indwelling Holy Spirit (Phil. 2:12-13; 2 Co. 3:18; Ro 8:13; Eph. 3:16, etc.).
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Christ’s Perfection in Us
Jesus embodies the perfection that dwells within those who place their faith in Him. His righteousness manifests in the heart of anyone who abides in Him, for apart from Him, we are incapable of accomplishing anything meaningful. Scripture affirms this truth.
As a human being, I cannot attain perfection in the flesh. Scripture also teaches that “no flesh shall glory in the presence of Yahavah.” Even a single act of sin stains me—and that stain is everlasting without redemption. I am wholly dependent on Yeshua to lead me to the Father, for without Him, I cannot reach God.
Everyone has the freedom to choose their path, even if that means walking away from God and the Lord Jesus Christ. God does not compel anyone against their will. His love extends to all—believers and unbelievers alike—and it is His desire that all come to the knowledge of the truth. This truth is found in His Son, who fulfilled what we could never achieve on our own.
Each person is responsible for how they live their life. When human beings begin to impose religious mandates on others, it often replaces divine transformation with human efforts. True change occurs when God works within the heart—not through forced compliance.
Yeshua accomplished everything that we could not. To abide in Christ is to embrace a perfection we could never attain through the flesh. He is that perfection—and it is revealed through the Spirit, not through human effort.
Jesus embodies the perfection that dwells within those who place their faith in Him. His righteousness manifests in the heart of anyone who abides in Him, for apart from Him, we are incapable of accomplishing anything meaningful. Scripture affirms this truth.
As a human being, I cannot attain perfection in the flesh. Scripture also teaches that “no flesh shall glory in the presence of Yahavah.” Even a single act of sin stains me—and that stain is everlasting without redemption. I am wholly dependent on Yeshua to lead me to the Father, for without Him, I cannot reach God.
Everyone has the freedom to choose their path, even if that means walking away from God and the Lord Jesus Christ. God does not compel anyone against their will. His love extends to all—believers and unbelievers alike—and it is His desire that all come to the knowledge of the truth. This truth is found in His Son, who fulfilled what we could never achieve on our own.
Each person is responsible for how they live their life. When human beings begin to impose religious mandates on others, it often replaces divine transformation with human efforts. True change occurs when God works within the heart—not through forced compliance.
Yeshua accomplished everything that we could not. To abide in Christ is to embrace a perfection we could never attain through the flesh. He is that perfection—and it is revealed through the Spirit, not through human effort.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I like romans 4 one of the many passages I gave to @GodsGrace that she will not even acknowledge
4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father[a] has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”
Paul made it clear. God imputes righteousness, while not imputing sign (charging to the persons account) based on Faith, not works.
if we read the account in Gen 15. Abrams faith at that time (he was not named abraham yet) had a weak faith. He questioned God. what heir for I have non)
Minutes later, He believed God and because of this faith, sin was not imputed, but righteousness was.
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
I think Matthew 13 is a good point of study.
Matthew 13:11, Jesus explains that the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven is given to some, but not to others, indicating that understanding is a gift not granted to everyone. This reflects the idea that while some may hear the message, not all will comprehend or accept it.
No, he corrected their bad conduct so that they could enjoy fellowship with God, more and more. It's this fellowship with God that is the point, after all, of being His child.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Corinthians 13:14
14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
1 John 1:3
3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
Revelation 3:20
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
Psalm 36:7-9
7 How precious is Your mercy, God!
And the sons of mankind take refuge in the shadow of Your wings.
8 They drink their fill of the abundance of Your house;
And You allow them to drink from the river of Your delights.
9 For the fountain of life is with You;
In Your light we see light.
In sinning, born-again believers never risk their salvation since it is rests entirely in Jesus, not themselves. But they always suffer the loss of the excellence of fellowship with God when they sin. This is the terrible consequence of their sin. Unfortunately, few Christians these days actually know anything of direct, personal, life-changing fellowship with God. They are caught up, instead, with the sort of impossible moralism that you describe, @GodsGrace and have no idea how great is the loss of fellowship with their glorious Maker.
I have. Many times. But, as you demonstrate here, you've been filtering my posts through the lens of your imagination, assumptions and doctrinal prejudice to such a degree that you cannot actually see what I've been writing. This should disturb you since it's the same thing you've been doing with God's word. And to much the same effect.
See? Here again you've totally ignored what my point was. Did you not understand it? Or are you just feigning obtuseness in an attempt to deflect from a challenge that you can't answer? As I showed, it is obvious in Romans 2 that Paul was speaking to law-keeping Jews within the framework of the Old Covenant, not Christians. His remarks in the chapter, then, cannot be legitimately applied to born-again believers as you tried to do.
Deflection. If you've got no good answer, just say so. This off-point reply is as obvious in its deflecting purpose as the sun is obvious in the sky.
??? You can do as you like. I don't need to respond to what Jesus said, and to who, in the manner you propose here. His words offer no difficulty whatever to what I believe about the eternal security of the believer. This should suggest to you that your thinking on salvation is awry.
No, you don't understand my view well at all. Which is why there are so many examples in our exchange of you misrepresenting/misunderstanding what my view is. It's fine to disagree with my view - but only if you actually know what it is, which you regularly demonstrate that you don't.
But I didn't write this. Your description here of my statments reveals only your own distortion of what I wrote. You've just assumed - wrongly - that my remark must mean what you assert here that it does. But what I wrote by no means necessitates that I think Jesus died only for those who came after his sacrifice on the cross. Again, this is just another of your prejudicial distortions of my view.
Nope. Look it up. Or remain ignorant. Your choice.
I don't think you know what Theology 101 actually is, @GodsGrace. Your posts in this thread have made this very clear.
No, not "anything"; only my view (and a great deal of basic Christian doctrine, too). This sort of hyperbolic misrepresentation of what I wrote doesn't help your cause, or your reasoning, any.
See? Just more mischaracterization. I've only said that good works are not necessary to being saved. This, Scripture states explicitly and repeatedly, as I've already shown from Scripture in past posts. But obedience to God is necessary to fellowship with Him. There is, in fact, a direct correlation between the believer's obedience to God and the depth of their direct, intimate communion with Him.
No, you're the one writing the above, not Jesus. The line of reasoning you've laid out is yours, not his. And for the many biblical reasons I've given in my posts in this thread, your conclusion is grossly false - and obnoxious.
You have no idea what the character of my life is. None.
Quite frankly, you ought to be ashamed of yourself for writing such a thing. Goodness. How far into unChristlike behavior your error has made you go!
But I don't teach this. You IMAGINE or ASSUME this, but it is not what I actually believe, or teach.
Do you honestly believe this sort of rhetorical "lawyering," is going to persuade anyone that you're right and I'm wrong? It's been very... interesting watching you Strawman, jump to conclusions, equivocate, eisegete, gaslight, employ secondhand ad hominem ("Jesus says this, not me") and then project many of these things onto those critical of your view. What's even more interesting, I think, is how much in denial of these things you are. In this, you demonstrate a very...biblical sort of blindness.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Then God is keeping the truth from
People. And then is going to condemn them?
Again I see it as they do not believe so they do not see. God hardens their hearts by proclaiming truth. They more they deny the harder they become
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
1 Corinthians 2:14
King James Version
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.1 Corinthians 1
1 Corinthians 3
Romans 8:5-10
King James Version
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Romans 7
Romans 9
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
Jesus tells us, he spoke in parables while here so not everyone listening would understand and come to repentance.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
again,
God helps the natural man understand the GOSPEL so that the natural man can make a free will chose to chose to receive him (but as many as have received him) or to reject him.
yes. without gods help they can not understand, But God does not keep it from them.. to even think this to me is sickening to my stomach Can I follow a God who states he is a God of love. who demands I loe all people even my enemy no matter what. yet refuses to do the same things himself.
No I could not. in this lifetime or the next
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
Some folks choose what parts of God's words they will accept and believe. They rationalize their choice to do so.
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
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