Crucifixion Question

[PS95]

i found were i did say ''truly i tell you today, that man though he was put to death as a thief he will live again.''

Your sentence makes no sense. It also doesn't not answer my Q's.

 

[David Lamb]

punished ?? normally when someone is punished its to correct their actions. what you've described is to be torched on and on for doing something wrong. please consider Romans 6:23. (please copy an paste from your favored bible )

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Ro 6:23 NKJV)

True, that verse does not mention punishment, but wages. Other bible verses do indeed talk of God punishing sin. For example:

“then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,” (2Pe 2:9 NKJV)

What you seem to be talking about with the notion of correcting actions is God chastening those whom He loves. An example:

“5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: “My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.” 7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.” (Heb 12:5-8 NKJV)

 

[David Lamb]

i wonder if you realize that thief person did not enter paradise that very day. he like the vast majority of mankind lay dead in the grave .

Are you saying that Jesus lied to the thief, or do you believe English translation are wrong in writing:

“And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”” (Lu 23:43 NKJV)

Some people say that it should read, “And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”” In other words, they say that "today" refers to when Jesus was speaking rather than when the thief would be in paradise. However, that doesn't make sense. When else would Jesus have been speaking? Rather, I agree with Adam Clarke, who wrote in his commentary on this verse: "This saying of our Lord is justly considered as a strong proof of the immateriality of the soul; and it is no wonder that those who have embraced the contrary opinion should endeavor to explain away this meaning. In order to do this, a comma is placed after to-day, and then our Lord is supposed to have meant, "Thou shalt be with me after the resurrection I tell thee this, TO-DAY." I am sorry to find men of great learning and abilities attempting to support this most feeble and worthless criticism. Such support a good cause cannot need; and, in my opinion, even a bad cause must be discredited by it."

 

[Deleted member 26788]

Are you saying that Jesus lied to the thief, or do you believe English translation are wrong in writing:

“And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”” (Lu 23:43 NKJV)

Some people say that it should read, “And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”” In other words, they say that "today" refers to when Jesus was speaking rather than when the thief would be in paradise. However, that doesn't make sense. When else would Jesus have been speaking? Rather, I agree with Adam Clarke, who wrote in his commentary on this verse: "This saying of our Lord is justly considered as a strong proof of the immateriality of the soul; and it is no wonder that those who have embraced the contrary opinion should endeavor to explain away this meaning. In order to do this, a comma is placed after to-day, and then our Lord is supposed to have meant, "Thou shalt be with me after the resurrection I tell thee this, TO-DAY." I am sorry to find men of great learning and abilities attempting to support this most feeble and worthless criticism. Such support a good cause cannot need; and, in my opinion, even a bad cause must be discredited by it."

its a english grammar thing. and BTY the KJV is not really the best .as it reads
“And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”” (Lu 23:43 NKJV)

as it should read
“And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today , you will be with Me in Paradise.””

it looks to be a little thing .its just a comma .but in the wrong place its huge.
Jesus him self did not go off to any type of paradise that very day ,as well the paradise is an earthly mater . the Bible does say when Jesus ascended to heaven .that was many days later .
to get that thief to the paradise earth it will be well after armageddon . at some point after, the resurrections begins . with some work the earth will be transformed into a luscious garden to encompass the whole planet . that is where the one time thief will be found.

 

[David Lamb]

its a english grammar thing. and BTY the KJV is not really the best .as it reads
“And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”” (Lu 23:43 NKJV)

as it should read
“And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today , you will be with Me in Paradise.””

it looks to be a little thing .its just a comma .but in the wrong place its huge.
Jesus him self did not go off to any type of paradise that very day ,as well the paradise is an earthly mater . the Bible does say when Jesus ascended to heaven .that was many days later .
to get that thief to the paradise earth it will be well after armageddon . at some point after, the resurrections begins . with some work the earth will be transformed into a luscious garden to encompass the whole planet . that is where the one time thief will be found.

But it is not just the KJV. I have just checked the verse in 25 English translations. 24 have a comma before the word "Today." The only exception was the Rotherham translation, which has:

And he said unto him Verily, I say unto thee this day: With me, shalt thou be in Paradise.

 

[Deleted member 26788]

But it is not just the KJV. I have just checked the verse in 25 English translations. 24 have a comma before the word "Today." The only exception was the Rotherham translation, which has:

And he said unto him Verily, I say unto thee this day: With me, shalt thou be in Paradise.

24 examples of the blind following the blind.
when the letters were first written there was no punctuation . it was put in by translation writers to make it say what they wanted or were told to make it say.

 

[David Lamb]

24 examples of the blind following the blind.
when the letters were first written there was no punctuation . it was put in by translation writers to make it say what they wanted or were told to make it say.

Not just 24. Most of the translations I mentioned were not the work of one person. Why would Jesus have specified that He was saying the words on that day? When else would the thief have imagined He was saying them? It just doesn't make sense to say that "today" refers to when He spoke the words.

 

[Deleted member 26788]

Your sentence makes no sense. It also doesn't not answer my Q's.

oh really . it took me several minutes to figure out what you had done . miss quoiting and changing the meaning of what was said.

Not just 24. Most of the translations I mentioned were not the work of one person. Why would Jesus have specified that He was saying the words on that day? When else would the thief have imagined He was saying them? It just doesn't make sense to say that "today" refers to when He spoke the words.

you said 24 I just ran with it . yes there are more that have gotten it wrong . I suggest the use of logic . Jesus did not go there that very day. therefore nigher did the thief

 

[PS95]

oh really . it took me several minutes to figure out what you had done . miss quoiting and changing the meaning of what was said.

I did not misquote you. AGAIN You said this-

With death a person pays for there sin. to then say this or that person will or will not receive a resurrection is Presumptuous . just because the thief then makes it does not mean he will stay there ,every one will have to prove their worthiness to remain.

There is a LOT of JW false teaching in your little paragraph. Most don't see it. I DO. Will you answer these questions this time or will the locust scatter?

Would you like to explain WHY the thief will be resurrected?

AND what do you mean by he may not "Stay there?" Where? the 1000 yr JW idea of paradise earth that is to come?
Why does he have to prove his worthiness there?
How will he prove himself worthy? What would make him unworthy?

 

[Deleted member 26788]

I did not misquote you. AGAIN You said this-

There is a LOT of JW false teaching in your little paragraph. Most don't see it. I DO. Will you answer these questions this time or will the locust scatter?

Would you like to explain WHY the thief will be resurrected?

AND what do you mean by he may not "Stay there?" Where? the 1000 yr JW idea of paradise earth that is to come?
Why does he have to prove his worthiness there?
How will he prove himself worthy? What would make him unworthy?

Said it but left auto word which changed it

 

[Deleted member 26788]

Would you like to explain WHY the thief will be resurrected?

one thing is he was told he'd be in paradise another

Acts 24:15​

And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

 

[PS95]

Not just 24. Most of the translations I mentioned were not the work of one person. Why would Jesus have specified that He was saying the words on that day? When else would the thief have imagined He was saying them? It just doesn't make sense to say that "today" refers to when He spoke the words.

hold his feet to the fire.- JWs have their own bible. JWs are taught to use diversion tactics whenever they can't defend a teaching.
Don't let him lead you. lead him back to the issue at hand.. again and again.
He would rather change the subject to anything other than-- death pays his sin debt therefore a sinless resurrection.
A Jw teaches that deeds in this life do not matter since physical death washes sins away... They will not be judged by what they do in this life..

 

[PS95]

one thing is he was told he'd be in paradise another

Acts 24:15​

And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

Would you like to explain WHY the thief will be resurrected? WAS THE THIEF RIGHTEOUS OR UNRIGHTEOUS?

AND what do you mean by he may not "Stay there?" Where? the 1000 yr JW idea of paradise earth that is to come?
Why does he have to prove his worthiness there?
How will he prove himself worthy? What would make him unworthy?

 

[MatthewG]

I understand the story of Jesus—His birth, death, resurrection, and crucifixion. But there's one part I still wrestle with.

I don't fully grasp why God sent Jesus to Earth as a man, or how His death on the cross leads to the forgiveness of sins. I get the basic idea: that Jesus died for mankind’s sins and that His blood somehow secures that forgiveness—but I’m struggling with the actual mechanics behind it. How does His death accomplish that? Why was it necessary?

Everything I’ve found just says, “He died for our sins,” but never explains how that works. It feels more like an analogy than something concrete.

I’m hoping someone can help me understand this more deeply. I’m open to Scripture and conversation—I just want clarity and would really appreciate anyone willing to walk me through it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It’s about what was lost when Adam and Eve fell in the Garden—intimacy with God, peace, and the original design for humanity. But God, in His wisdom, chose a people through whom He would carry out His plan of restoration. And from that chosen nation came Yeshua, who stepped into history to bring everything back to what it was meant to be from the very beginning—just like in the Garden.

That’s my take on it, in a nutshell, @FinnleyGraves



From spiritual loss, to a now spiritually alive state, in and through Yeshua the Messiah whom came to restore what was lost.

 

[Deleted member 26788]

after each ones resurrection there will be an education given to then inform them what happen and why . all because there is going to be a judgment of how they then lived their lives after resurrection . their past life will not be held against them . they have already paid for those sins with there own death

 

[PS95]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It’s about what was lost when Adam and Eve fell in the Garden—intimacy with God, peace, and the original design for humanity. But God, in His wisdom, chose a people through whom He would carry out His plan of restoration. And from that chosen nation came Yeshua, who stepped into history to bring everything back to what it was meant to be from the very beginning—just like in the Garden.

That’s my take on it, in a nutshell, @FinnleyGraves

View attachment 66539

From spiritual loss, to a now spiritually alive state, in and through Yeshua the Messiah whom came to restore what was lost.

Matt, Can you explain to me from the preterist view? IOW is that all restored in a spiritual sense now? New heaven and earth here now?

 

[MatthewG]

Matt, Can you explain to me from the preterist view? IOW is that all restored in a spiritual sense now? New heaven and earth here now?

I would believe faithfully so. Though most do not. It's exactly what I had shared with Finnelygraves. It is indeed seen spiritually, through being born again in Yeshua.

Can I explain it? Probably not all that well other than that nutshell comment.

 

[PS95]

after each ones resurrection there will be an education given to then inform them what happen and why . all because there is going to be a judgment of how they then lived their lives after resurrection . their past life will not be held against them . they have already paid for those sins with there own death

Next time you reply would you mind hitting "reply" so I am sure to see it?
Ok so there is a lot there. Let's begin with the beginning which is your LAST sentence. The rest can wait for now.
You said, "they already paid for those sins with their own death"
So to you, physical death = sinlessness/righteousness/ justification? They all mean the same thing. Do you understand that?

 

[PS95]

I would believe faithfully so. Though most do not. It's exactly what I had shared with Finnelygraves. It is indeed seen spiritually, through being born again in Yeshua.

Can I explain it? Probably not all that well other than that nutshell comment.

I agree we are born anew now. But is that it? Resurrection of the body to come? 1 Cor 15

12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

 

[MatthewG]

I agree we are born anew now. But is that it? Resurrection of the body to come?

Ps95,

I like to think of our spiritual journey as growing from childhood into maturity. Over time, we develop and strengthen our inner, spiritual self, learning and growing closer to God. When someone passes away, I believe they’re lovingly given a new "mansion"—a spiritual home prepared by God. It’s something beautiful and personal that reflects who they’ve become in Him.

Paul speaks about varying levels of glory, just like the different measures of faith we each carry. Some may be deeply close to God, while others might feel a bit more distant—but all are embraced in His grace.

God is both fair and just. He gives to each person what they've truly earned through their life in Yeshua. As we live, we store spiritual treasures in heaven—reflections of the love, faith, and choices held in our hearts. In the end, Yahavah will lovingly judge, offering each person a reward that fits them perfectly.

And yes, God has made space for everyone, even for those who dwell outside the kingdom. Nothing is overlooked in His plan.