When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?

[ewq1938]

The words "church", "churches" are not in the text of Revelation 11.

Irrelevant, and that is the fallacy known as the argument from silence.

You are (wrongfully) rationalizing that there are two churches in Revelation 11.

No, I am not. Two candlesticks is symbolism for two churches. It cannot be argued.

 

[Douggg]

Irrelevant, and that is the fallacy known as the argument from silence.

No, it is not an argument from silence.

No, I am not. Two candlesticks is symbolism for two churches. It cannot be argued.

In Revelation 1:20 it is seven candlesticks symbolizing seven churches. Not two candlesticks symbolizing two churches.

Why are you trying so hard to rationalize two churches into Revelation 11 ? Why are you so motivated to do so ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are the one who is attempting to change the meaning of Revelation 11 by trying to insert two churches into the text by wrongful rationalization.

Ridiculous accusation. How am I inserting two churches into the text when I am simply going by how candlesticks are defined in Revelation 1:20? I am being consistent with how candlesticks are defined in the book of Revelation and you are not.

Oh, so you can not see the consistency of grouping the like time expressions together.

That isn't what I'm saying you are being inconsistent about. Good grief, Douggg. It's impossible to have a rational discussion with you.

Yet, you don't provide any alternative diagram of how the 15 time of the end time expressions fit together.

I don't agree with you that the 70th week is unfulfilled, so I, of course, am not going to agree with your assertion that the 42 months and 1260 days relate to Daniel's 70th week. Our views are extremely far apart, so that makes it almost impossible for us to have a reasonable discussion about anything relating to Bible prophecy.

 

[Douggg]

I don't agree with you that the 70th week is unfulfilled, so I, of course, am not going to agree with your assertion that the 42 months and 1260 days relate to Daniel's 70th week. Our views are extremely far apart, so that makes it almost impossible for us to have a reasonable discussion about anything relating to Bible prophecy.

Then make an alternative diagram of how the other 14 time of the end time frames fit together (leaving out the the 70th week of Daniel 9:27).

I annotated Daniel 9:27 as the left hand boundary. In your diagram, just leave that blank.

Before you say you can't make charts, down below I made a diagram with just normal typing.




<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<2520 days - 7 years>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

.........................................................................gentiles trample Jerusalem, (42 months Revelation 11:2......................)Jesus's return day
...............................................................................................the beast's reign, (42 months Revelation 13:5.....................)Jesus's return day
..........................................................................................Satan's persecution (time,times half time Revelation 12:14)Jesus's return day
............................................................little horn changes times and laws (time, times, half time Daniel 7:25.........)Jesus's return day
.......................................................................Daniel's people under duress (time, times, half time Daniel 12:7........)Jesus's return day
............................................................abomination of desolation (the great tribulation 1335 days, Daniel 12:12.)Jesus's return day
little horn actions.......(2300 days Daniel 8:14.......................................................................................................................)Jesus's return day
........................................................................7 years Ezekiel 39:9................................................................................................)Jesus's return day
(7 months Ezekiel 39:12) Israel burying the dead of Gog's armies
(1260 days Revelation 12:6.......................................) Israel fed the word of God
(1260 days Revelation 11:3.......................................) the two witnesses testify in Jerusalem
..............................................................................................(3 1/2 days) the two witnesses bodies lay dead
..................................................................................(1290 days Daniel 12:11.................................................................)
..................................................................................................................(5 months Revelation 9:10) flesh tormenting locust

 

[amigo de christo]

Ah yes, the irony is rich. You lecture about people believing “just about anything”… right after claiming the ten kings in Revelation are Nephilim. That’s quite the spiritual high dive into the deep end of fantasy. Remind me again—where in the text does Revelation 17 or 18 say anything about giants, hybrid beings, or anything remotely connected to Genesis 6? Oh right—it doesn’t. But hey, why let biblical silence get in the way of a good conspiracy theory?

You shout that “the sheep believe the King”—and yet here you are, grazing in a pasture of made-up doctrines with zero exegesis and plenty of imagination. Jesus said, “My sheep hear My voice” (John 10:27), not “My sheep chase after Nephilim-infused prophecy theories.”

If twisting Scripture is your concern, you might want to look in the mirror. Reading Nephilim into the ten kings isn’t just adding to the text—it’s rewriting it. And Revelation has something to say about that: “If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues written in this book” (Revelation 22:18).

So yes, marvel not indeed—because it's quite plain to see that men are capable of believing anything… especially when it’s not in the Bible.

Nephilim . I never said any such thing . You gots to be talking bout someone else .

 

[amigo de christo]

Good night i cannot believe tribulation signs
accused me of even implying to the ten kings are hybrids , nephilims .
HE has got to be talking bout someone else .

 

[TribulationSigns]

Nephilim . I never said any such thing . You gots to be talking bout someone else .

My post was intended as a clear warning to anyone who seriously considers the notion that the ten horns may represent Nephilim as an example is gravely mistaken and needs to reevaluate their understanding of Scripture. Sorry if it came across as though my post was aimed at you -- that wasn’t the case.

 

[ewq1938]

Why are you trying so hard to rationalize two churches into Revelation 11 ? Why are you so motivated to do so ?

The true question is this: Why are you trying so hard to rationalize that there are not two churches in Revelation 11 ? Why are you so motivated to do so ?

 

[Douggg]

The true question is this: Why are you trying so hard to rationalize that there are not two churches in Revelation 11 ? Why are you so motivated to do so ?

In Revelation 1:20 it is seven candlesticks symbolizing seven churches. Not two candlesticks symbolizing two churches.

Why are you trying so hard to rationalize two churches into Revelation 11 ? Why are you so motivated to do so ?

Are you trying to defend your post-trib rapture view ?

 

[ewq1938]

In Revelation 1:20 it is seven candlesticks symbolizing seven churches. Not two candlesticks symbolizing two churches.

In Rev 11, there are two candlesticks and candlesticks are symbolism for churches which means two candlesticks is two churches. The 2W are two churches and two individuals.

 

[TribulationSigns]

In Rev 11, there are two candlesticks and candlesticks are symbolism for churches which means two candlesticks is two churches. The 2W are two churches and two individuals.

Close.

The Two Witnesses are Elect. Or the church of chosen elect. They are the ones who have recieve power with the Holy Spirit to preach Gospel. The corporate believers (professed christians) do not.

Not “two churches” or “two individuals”.

 

[Douggg]

In Rev 11, there are two candlesticks and candlesticks are symbolism for churches which means two candlesticks is two churches. The 2W are two churches and two individuals.

No, that is not what it says.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Verse 4 is taken from Zechariah 4:11-14.

11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

The two anointed witnesses are two olive trees and two candlesticks that will provide light unto the world as they preach the Word of God.

Not two churches, which you can't even identify what two churches.

The two witnesses will be clothed in sackcloth. Churches are not clothed in sackcloth.

 

[Douggg]

The Two Witnesses are Elect.

How many Elect ?

Not “two churches” or “two individuals”.

So what is the purpose of saying "two" witnesses ?

 

[amigo de christo]

How many Elect ?


So what is the purpose of saying "two" witnesses ?

While i do not claim to KNOW who the two witnesses are
Notice it is written in the mouth of two or three witnesses .

 

[Douggg]

While i do not claim to KNOW who the two witnesses are
Notice it is written in the mouth of two or three witnesses .

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

It simply means that each of the two witnesses will have the power to deliver fire from their mouth as a method of defense against any intentions to hurt them.

 

[TribulationSigns]

How many Elect ?

How many Elect in God's Kingdom? MANY!

So what is the purpose of saying "two" witnesses ?

First, what is the purpose of saying "a Lamb as it had been slain, having Seven Horns, and Seven Eyes, which are the Seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth?"

Do you know what the number seven signifies in Scripture? God is NOT talking about seven literal horns, seven literal eyes, or seven literal spirits here! The number seven signifies totality or completeness of whatever is in view. It is the "all-inclusiveness" of a thing. Selah.

Like I said over and over and over again here, the horn signifies POWER, just as the horns of an animal are a figure of his power. So the seven horns signify the totality of God's power. The seven eyes illustrate the totality of the watch of the Holy Spirit. Eyes equate to seeing/knowing. There is ONE Holy Spirit, but the number seven here is numeric symbolism illustrating His presence over the totality of the world. And the same application with the Seven eyes. It illustrates his "total" watch over the Earth where He sees "all". The Holy Spirit of God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent. The number seven illustrates the magnificent totality of this:

(7 horns - Omnipotent) The (totality) of His Power!
(7 spirits - Omnipresent) He is all (totality) everywhere!
(7 eyes - Omniscient) He is all (totality) knowing/seeing!

This is the purpose of understanding what Revelation 5:6 talks about!

Likewise, with the two witnesses of Revelation 11.

What does the number two signify in Scripture? It is the TRUTH!

Numbers 35:30

• "Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die."

Here God is using the minimum number of "two" witnesses to illustrate the corroboration of what is the truth (Deu. 17:6). One witness could not by God's law establish it as the truth. It took at least "two" or three witnesses to establish any accusation as true, that a man could be put to death. This number two signified the agreement or corroboration that established truth. That is precisely why Revelation chapter eleven uses the phrase "two witnesses". It is to signify that these are the truthful or faithful witnesses of Christ who went forth declaring God's Word as TRUTH!

The Witness of Truth. Elect of God! They come with the power of the Holy Ghost as fire coming out of their mouths. Not two literal individual fire-breathing individuals as you think!

 

[amigo de christo]

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

It simply means that each of the two witnesses will have the power to deliver fire from their mouth as a method of defense against any intentions to hurt them.

And yet let us read again
in the prophets .
Whereas GOD told the prophet i will put my words into your mouth .
And what did GOD say those words would be unto those who rejected
AS FIRE that destroyes .
Sounds to me like whoever these two witnesses are
the words they preached , that those who resisted that message in sack cloth and ash
WHICH DARN SURE MEANS they preached JESUS
shall be judged and destroyed by ................................
HE who said , MY WORDS SHALL BE YOUR JUDGE ON THE LAST DAY .
Just as GOD sent teh prophets to warn and unto those who rejected
they were destroyed , cast out
SO TOO NOW in the end HAS HE SENT THE SON , WHO all them propehts sure did point too ,
And who so ever rejects HIM , HIS WORDS
SHALL MEET THEIR FIERY END ON THE DAY OF THE LORD . MY words shall be your judge .

 

[TribulationSigns]

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

It simply means that each of the two witnesses will have the power to deliver fire from their mouth as a method of defense against any intentions to hurt them.

False carnal interpreation! You obviously did not study Scripture to find out what God defined the fire out of the mouths as:

Scripture tells us that the Word of God from the mouth of God's prophets is as a fire which devours His enemies. This is because it is a Word of judgment. Symbolically speaking, as fire is to wood, so is the Word of God to the wicked because it is the declaration of their firey destruction which cannot return void. The Word of God is either a witness of truth unto man for His Salvation, or it is a witness against man unto his judgment.

Again, this is the marvelous symbolic imagery which God uses here to show us that He is not speaking literally. Would those theologians who claim that these are physically two people, also claim that they are literally fire breathing people who roast the wicked with flames from their mouths? Come on! Of course not! For even they understand that this is symbolism. And yet they will inconsistently attempt to draw the conclusion that the two witnesses from who's mouth proceeds symbolic fire, are literally "two people." But inconsistency is the hallmark of error. If they were two literal people, then their mouths are literal, and the fire from it literal. And the mouth is another clue that this fire is 'symbolizing' the Word of God. The very fact that we are told it comes from their mouths, brings clarity to the symbolism. The mouth is where words of fire come from, not literal flames. What words does the faithful Church speak that is like a fire to burn the enemies of God? Clearly, our Lord tells us that it is the Word of God. The Church comes in mourning because they recognize the seriousness of sin, and they know that the world is going to hell in a hand basket. Their Word of testimony to repent and be Saved is as cool waters to those who by Grace of God 'receive' it, but their testimony of sure judgment and God's vengeance upon the unrepentant is as fire to those who do not want to hear it. Man in his destitute heart reviles and scoffs and shows their hatred for the witness to the truth, and when that happens the Word is a witness of judgment upon their heads. These unrepentant are those devoured by the fire from the witness of the Church. For on the one hand God's Word is as cool waters to a thirsty soul to those who will receive it..

Proverbs 25:25

• "As cold waters to a thirsty soul, so is good news from a far country."

..and on the other hand it's like a flaming fire to those who will not receive it. As the Lord spoke in Jeremiah that His Word is symbolically likened unto this fire:

Jeremiah 23:29-31

• "..Is not My Word like a fire saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
• Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
• Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith."

Unambiguously, God is using fire to 'symbolize' His Word to the people. He is declaring that it will judge the false prophets of His congregation for making their own words to be the Word of God. This is spiritual idolatry. In other words, man is making a false god in the Temple by claiming his own words, are God's Words. God's Word is as a fire and will destroy these who do such things. And in verse twenty three of that chapter, God illustrates He will be a God afar off from them. Here is very clear precedence of the Lord speaking of those who come bringing 'His Word,' and He 'signifies' them as His servants who come with fire from their mouths. It's not idle speculation, it is Biblical fact that the judgment of His congregation by His servants coming with the Word, is as them coming with fire from their mouths. Consider wisely:

Jeremiah 5:11-14

• "For the house of Israel and the house of Judah have dealt very treacherously against me, saith the LORD.
• They have belied the LORD, and said, It is not he; neither shall evil come upon us; neither shall we see sword nor famine:
• And the prophets shall become wind, and the word is not in them: thus shall it be done unto them.
• Wherefore, thus saith the Lord God of Hosts, because ye speak this word, behold, I will make My Words in thy mouth, fire and this people wood and it shall devour them."

Selah! The exact same symbolic language which we see in Revelation 11 of the witnesses of God with fire coming out of their mouths whereby the enemies are killed. This fire is symbolizing the Word of God, which by the Spirit is the power of judgment given the Church. These false prophets who think that they are the safe and secure and no evil shall come upon them because they are God's Congregation, will have a rude awakening come the day of judgment. Because the Word which they disdain is the flaming sword of the Spirit which is the judgment which shall light upon them and devour them. Just as God prophesied to the Old Testament congregation that He would bring the nations upon the house of Israel as judgment, so God will also loose the beast who will bring the nations against His unfaithful New Testament congregation who has forsaken Him and done the same wicked and abominable things. For there is nothing New under the Sun.

Selah!

 

[amigo de christo]

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

It simply means that each of the two witnesses will have the power to deliver fire from their mouth as a method of defense against any intentions to hurt them.

My words shall be a fuel of fire and this people as wood .
Now reader take notice
that when , i think it was ezzekial spoke people who resisted didnt immediately go under
the firey judgment of GOD
but unto those who would not repent , OH THEY SURE DID .
So too we have not yet seen those who have long rejected His words , His gospel
lit up with the fire of desruction .
BUT ITS SURELY COMING . and many will fall face first into the lake of fire
on the DAY OF THE LORD , for out of HIS MOUTH that TWO EDGED SWORD
shall destroy them . MY WORDS shall be your judge .
Speakng of that
HOW MANY OF US BEEN TWISTING HIS WORDS , OMITTING HIS WORDS
for mens doctrines . cause that wont bode well either as they twiseted the scrips unto their own destruction .
Just a friendly reminder to us all that its high time we all bible up for ourselves and learn afresh and anew .

 

[amigo de christo]

False carnal interpreation! You obviously did not study Scripture to find out what God defined the fire out of the mouths as:

Scripture tells us that the Word of God from the mouth of God's prophets is as a fire which devours His enemies. This is because it is a Word of judgment. Symbolically speaking, as fire is to wood, so is the Word of God to the wicked because it is the declaration of their firey destruction which cannot return void. The Word of God is either a witness of truth unto man for His Salvation, or it is a witness against man unto his judgment.

Again, this is the marvelous symbolic imagery which God uses here to show us that He is not speaking literally. Would those theologians who claim that these are physically two people, also claim that they are literally fire breathing people who roast the wicked with flames from their mouths? Come on! Of course not! For even they understand that this is symbolism. And yet they will inconsistently attempt to draw the conclusion that the two witnesses from who's mouth proceeds symbolic fire, are literally "two people." But inconsistency is the hallmark of error. If they were two literal people, then their mouths are literal, and the fire from it literal. And the mouth is another clue that this fire is 'symbolizing' the Word of God. The very fact that we are told it comes from their mouths, brings clarity to the symbolism. The mouth is where words of fire come from, not literal flames. What words does the faithful Church speak that is like a fire to burn the enemies of God? Clearly, our Lord tells us that it is the Word of God. The Church comes in mourning because they recognize the seriousness of sin, and they know that the world is going to hell in a hand basket. Their Word of testimony to repent and be Saved is as cool waters to those who by Grace of God 'receive' it, but their testimony of sure judgment and God's vengeance upon the unrepentant is as fire to those who do not want to hear it. Man in his destitute heart reviles and scoffs and shows their hatred for the witness to the truth, and when that happens the Word is a witness of judgment upon their heads. These unrepentant are those devoured by the fire from the witness of the Church. For on the one hand God's Word is as cool waters to a thirsty soul to those who will receive it..

Proverbs 25:25

• "As cold waters to a thirsty soul, so is good news from a far country."

..and on the other hand it's like a flaming fire to those who will not receive it. As the Lord spoke in Jeremiah that His Word is symbolically likened unto this fire:

Jeremiah 23:29-31

• "..Is not My Word like a fire saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
• Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
• Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith."

Unambiguously, God is using fire to 'symbolize' His Word to the people. He is declaring that it will judge the false prophets of His congregation for making their own words to be the Word of God. This is spiritual idolatry. In other words, man is making a false god in the Temple by claiming his own words, are God's Words. God's Word is as a fire and will destroy these who do such things. And in verse twenty three of that chapter, God illustrates He will be a God afar off from them. Here is very clear precedence of the Lord speaking of those who come bringing 'His Word,' and He 'signifies' them as His servants who come with fire from their mouths. It's not idle speculation, it is Biblical fact that the judgment of His congregation by His servants coming with the Word, is as them coming with fire from their mouths. Consider wisely:

Jeremiah 5:11-14

• "For the house of Israel and the house of Judah have dealt very treacherously against me, saith the LORD.
• They have belied the LORD, and said, It is not he; neither shall evil come upon us; neither shall we see sword nor famine:
• And the prophets shall become wind, and the word is not in them: thus shall it be done unto them.
• Wherefore, thus saith the Lord God of Hosts, because ye speak this word, behold, I will make My Words in thy mouth, fire and this people wood and it shall devour them."

Selah! The exact same symbolic language which we see in Revelation 11 of the witnesses of God with fire coming out of their mouths whereby the enemies are killed. This fire is symbolizing the Word of God, which by the Spirit is the power of judgment given the Church. These false prophets who think that they are the safe and secure and no evil shall come upon them because they are God's Congregation, will have a rude awakening come the day of judgment. Because the Word which they disdain is the flaming sword of the Spirit which is the judgment which shall light upon them and devour them. Just as God prophesied to the Old Testament congregation that He would bring the nations upon the house of Israel as judgment, so God will also loose the beast who will bring the nations against His unfaithful New Testament congregation who has forsaken Him and done the same wicked and abominable things. For there is nothing New under the Sun.

Selah!

that is what i just tried to tell him . Much shorter version and i thought it was ezzekial he said it to
but i can now see it was jeremiah .