Antiochus IV in Daniel 11:21-31 was not time of the end.
Differently, the little horn person in Daniel 8:9-25 is time of the end, Daniel 8:17,
In Daniel 8, 11, and 12, is A4E meant? Or is a future anti-christ meant?
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Differently, the little horn person in Daniel 8:9-25 is time of the end, Daniel 8:17,
First I presented to ChatGPT my view, my thoughts, and how and why I am arriving at what I do. IOW, I wasn't asking ChatGPT questions. I was presenting my view and my thoughts with the expectation that ChatGPT might help me frame this better. Which is exactly what happened when ChatGPT asked me this---Would You Like Help Framing This More Formally? Thus below.
Still my view still my thoughts, thus I am able to think and reason for myself and that I don't require others having to do my thinking and reasoning for me. I'm simply using ChatGPT as a tool to express my view and thoughts more clearly. That is not even remotely the same as me using ChatGPT as my source of theology, like some in the past have falsely accused me of doing.
Daniel 8 and 11: A Consistent Prophetic Vision of the Future Antichrist
Thesis:
The "little horn" in Daniel 8 and the "vile person" in Daniel 11 are not references to Antiochus IV Epiphanes (A4E), but to a future Antichrist. Interpreting one as Antiochus and the other as the Antichrist is inconsistent. Furthermore, Daniel 8 explicitly connects the vision to "the time of the end" and portrays a scope and impact far beyond what A4E ever fulfilled. The vision speaks not of the type (Antiochus), but of the antitype (Antichrist).
I. Consistency Demands the Little Horn and the Vile Person Are the Same Figure
II. Daniel 8 Is Clearly Linked to the Time of the End
III. The Vision Is Sealed Until the End—Ruling Out a 2nd Century Fulfillment
IV. Daniel’s Reaction Proves the Vision Surpassed Historical Understanding
V. The Book of Maccabees Is Historical; Daniel Is Prophetic
Conclusion:
The internal consistency of Daniel 8 and 11, the textual emphasis on the time of the end, the sealed nature of the vision, and Daniel's overwhelming reaction all argue powerfully against identifying these chapters with Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Instead, these texts clearly point to a still-future Antichrist. To claim otherwise is to ignore the plain indicators within the text and to accept an interpretive model that collapses under the weight of its own inconsistencies.
Antiochus IV may have been a type, but Daniel is revealing the antitype—the final enemy of God and His people.
Still my view still my thoughts, thus I am able to think and reason for myself and that I don't require others having to do my thinking and reasoning for me. I'm simply using ChatGPT as a tool to express my view and thoughts more clearly. That is not even remotely the same as me using ChatGPT as my source of theology, like some in the past have falsely accused me of doing.
Daniel 8 and 11: A Consistent Prophetic Vision of the Future Antichrist
Thesis:
The "little horn" in Daniel 8 and the "vile person" in Daniel 11 are not references to Antiochus IV Epiphanes (A4E), but to a future Antichrist. Interpreting one as Antiochus and the other as the Antichrist is inconsistent. Furthermore, Daniel 8 explicitly connects the vision to "the time of the end" and portrays a scope and impact far beyond what A4E ever fulfilled. The vision speaks not of the type (Antiochus), but of the antitype (Antichrist).
I. Consistency Demands the Little Horn and the Vile Person Are the Same Figure
- Daniel 8 and 11 describe parallel figures: Both desecrate the temple, stop sacrifices, and persecute God's people.
- Therefore, they must refer to the same person or the same prophetic role.
- To interpret the little horn (Daniel 8) as the Antichrist but the vile person (Daniel 11) as Antiochus IV is logically inconsistent.
- A consistent reading requires that if one is future, the other is also future.
II. Daniel 8 Is Clearly Linked to the Time of the End
- Daniel 8:17, 19, 23 all explicitly tie the vision to "the time of the end."
- The phrase cannot reasonably be limited to a past event in the 2nd century BC—it denotes a future, eschatological context.
- Therefore, the events of Daniel 8 have not yet been fulfilled.
- If this chapter refers to the end, then it cannot primarily be about Antiochus IV.
III. The Vision Is Sealed Until the End—Ruling Out a 2nd Century Fulfillment
- Daniel 8:26 says the vision is to be "shut up" or "sealed" until the time of the end.
- A sealed vision implies delayed relevance and understanding—not something fulfilled 350 years after Daniel’s time.
- If the vision was about A4E and the Maccabean crisis, it would not need to be sealed.
- Thus, the vision’s true fulfillment lies in the distant future, not in intertestamental history.
IV. Daniel’s Reaction Proves the Vision Surpassed Historical Understanding
- Daniel 8:27 – "And I, Daniel, fainted, and was sick certain days… I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it."
- This extreme reaction—physical collapse, illness, astonishment, and confusion—indicates a vision of profound mystery and gravity.
- It's implausible that Daniel would respond this way to a vision of a political tyrant desecrating the temple centuries later—something well within his theological framework (cf. the Babylonian destruction of the temple).
- Only a truly cosmic and eschatological vision—a revelation of the final Antichrist—justifies this depth of impact.
V. The Book of Maccabees Is Historical; Daniel Is Prophetic
- The events involving Antiochus IV, found in 1 and 2 Maccabees, serve as the type—a foreshadowing.
- Daniel, by contrast, is unveiling the antitype—the ultimate fulfillment of that typology.
- To equate Daniel’s prophecy with the historical record of Maccabees is to confuse the shadow with the substance.
- Daniel points forward to a greater abomination and a more catastrophic fulfillment in the person of the future Antichrist.
Conclusion:
The internal consistency of Daniel 8 and 11, the textual emphasis on the time of the end, the sealed nature of the vision, and Daniel's overwhelming reaction all argue powerfully against identifying these chapters with Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Instead, these texts clearly point to a still-future Antichrist. To claim otherwise is to ignore the plain indicators within the text and to accept an interpretive model that collapses under the weight of its own inconsistencies.
Antiochus IV may have been a type, but Daniel is revealing the antitype—the final enemy of God and His people.
Daniel 11:35 transitions to the time of the end after Antiochus IV and his troops place the (historic) abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31.
To be consistent, the little horn person is time of the end. And the king in Daniel 11:36 is time of the end.
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David, do you really think Daniel 11:30 applies to the end times little horn (Antichrist) person ?
Daniel 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
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Why don't you bother comparing Daniel 11:31-35 with that of Daniel 12:9-11?
Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
How can you ignore that what is recorded in verse 10 in Daniel 12, which you take to be involving end times, is also recorded in in verse 35 where you argue isn't involving end times? You would have us believe that history records Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried, two different times, one fulfilled in ancient history, the other fulfilled in end times?
Plus, you ignore that ch 11 never mentions the amount of time the AOD involves but ch 12 does. You would have us believe, per your inconsistent manner approach of these things, that the AOD meant in Daniel 11 is not the same AOD meant in Daniel 12. Where I come from, maybe not where you come from, it is a major red flag that someone is not interpreting something correctly if they have to resort to being inconsistent about things when it is already plainly obvious that these things are involving the same events, the same era of time.
Daniel 11:35 is a transition verse that covers over 2000 years to the end times. Daniel 11:36 is an end times king.
Everything from Daniel 11:36 through Daniel 12:12 is end times.
No, I do not ignore that. Daniel 11:31 is a historic abomination of desolation by Antiochus and his troops. It does not specify how long the abomination of desolation was in place.
Differently , Daniel 12:11-12 specifies 1290 days and 1335 days which fit within the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9. The abomination of desolation statue image will be removed at Jesus's return, by being brought up into flames and turned to ashes.
TribulationSigns
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Oh yes, the infamous "little horn person" theory—because apparently Scripture wasn’t clear enough and needs modern interpreters to add characters that God never mentioned. Let's be real here: calling the little horn a literal person is not only a weak interpretation, it directly contradicts what the Bible already defines.
Daniel never said the little horn is a man. God already defines the little horn as a power for a short time or short season, not an individual. In Daniel 7:24, it clearly states:
“And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.”
God is speaking about a kingdom represented by the ten horns—ten kings. These kings symbolize the false prophets and false christs who now rule over the unfaithful congregation, because the Two Witnesses—God’s Elect with the faithful Gospel testimony—have been silenced. So no, this is not about some mystery man rising to power. Verse 24 plainly says, “another shall rise”—another kingdom, not a person. Its the spirit of Satan!
Now consider this part of verse 24:
“And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power…”
Exactly! The little horn doesn’t even rise by its own power. This Spirit of Satan gains power from false prophets and false christs, who willingly give their authority to the beast. That’s why Revelation 17:12–13 fits perfectly:
"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast."
These ten kings are not ten literal individuals. They are symbolically the rulers within the congregation—the very people who should have been shepherds but instead betrayed the Church. Since the Cross, they never had true Kingdom authority—it was the Two Witnesses who carried the Gospel of peace. But now, because of deception and lying signs and wonders, have successed killed (silence) the Two Witnesses, and take over as rulers of the congregation, THEY gave up the Church to Satan. Just as the unfaithful church (fallen star) of Revelation 8 with the key (authority) to open the bottomless pit to allow the beast to come out. Humm! Thus, the beast has full access to the temple and silences the daily sacrifice of salvation within!
Now look at Daniel 8:23:
"And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up."
When the transgressors (false prophets and christs) finally have full power over the Two Witnesses which have been killed. That is "WHEN" the little horn rise or stand up! This is the eighth king, who rises from the seven—the kingdom of transgressors. This is King Apollyon and Abaddon of Revelation 9 which is the Messenger of Satan. This is why in Daniel 8:9–12, the little horn "waxed exceeding great"—not physically, but spiritually—against the host of heaven and the daily sacrifice. It’s spiritual warfare. Satan takes over the unfaithful Church through false prophets and christs (the ten kings). This is not about one human figure. It’s a system empowered by Satan—not a solo act.
But again, don’t miss this—it only happens because God allows it. Why? For judgment. As written:
Revelation 17:16–17
"And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."
Yes—God put it in their hearts to give up His Church to the beast. This is God's will and purpose for divine judgment! The very doctrines and deceptions they preach are the instruments of their own destruction!! That’s how God causes them to believe the lie and be judged. He gives the beast rule over His Church—for a short season!
Back to Daniel 7:24 again:
"And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings."
Notice the three subdued kings? This is not talking about remove three men from power. That’s not random. The number three signifies the will and purpose of God. This is what Revelation 17:17 talking about! God allows this final kingdom to rise as judgment on the transgressors in His house. This is the time of the Gentiles—symbolically the UNSAVED —who now rule the corporate Church:
Revelation 11:1–2
"And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."
The measured temple, altar, and worshippers are Christ, His Daily Sacrifice, and Chosen Elect — those still sealed by God. Those in the outer court? Professing Christians in name only—not saved for they are not measured into the True Church. And God gives them up to the Gentiles to trample the holy city underfoot—for 42 months, or the short season of Satan’s rule for the purpose to judging the unfaithful within the congregation of God!
So let’s be clear: this has nothing to do with physical land, city and temple with stones, Antiochus Epiphanes, 70 AD, or some European Antichrist in a future third temple. Blah blah blah. That’s fiction of the premillennialism and pretrism who really do not understand spiritually what God is talking about. This is about His rebellious Church, full of false christs and prophets, who deceive and destroy without the Spirit of Truth. This is the fall of Babylon the Great—and it’s already underway. Yep!
Those who have ears, let him ear!
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David, Daniel 11:35 covers over two thousand years to the end times. There have been multitudes who have turned to Jesus and the gospel of salvation over the past two thousand years. And in the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27 many more multitudes will turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation.
Yes, exactly. The abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 is historic. Differently, the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12:11-12 will take place during the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.
The little horn is a male person referred to as "he" in the text.
Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Why haven't you made any timeline charts or diagrams ?
TribulationSigns
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You're misunderstanding the passage. Yes, the text says "he shall speak great words..." — but that doesn’t automatically mean it’s referring to a specific human king. Remember, God is referred to as "He", and Satan — a spirit — is also referred to as "he" throughout Scripture.
Daniel 7 is not talking about a literal, singular man ruling the world. It speaks of a spiritual power — the spirit of Satan — working through rebellious people, false prophets, false christs, and corrupted systems. That’s what "he" represents.
Why should I waste time making charts for someone who lacks spiritual understanding? If the Word of God alone — as I testify it — isn't enough for you, then no chart will help. Truth isn't revealed through diagrams; it's revealed through the Spirit.
For all I know, the ships of Chittim could be the code for something that might apply to the 21st century? It doesn't necessarily have to be meaning something ancient.
Take Ezekiel 39, for instance, where you take to be involving the 21st century. For example, it mentions the fatlings of Bashan.
Though I am arguing it is involving a future AC, I am arguing it is meaning that spiritually not literally. I am in no way shape or form arguing it's some European Antichrist in a future third temple, in the event you think I am. In Daniel 8:9-14, 23-25, which is the vision in question, the vision shut up and reserved for the time of the end, do I ever take any of that to be involving a literal temple. I take it to be involving Matthew 24:15-26, for one, where I take that to be involving 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4. 9, 11, and what all that involves, such as the 42 month reign of the beast, and that I take none of that, as in zero, to be involving a literal city and a literal temple.
And my guess is that since we might not see all these things exactly the same, that you will dismiss that we are at least close here, and instead insist we are not even remotely close because it's either all your way or no way. As if it makes sense, my view is closer to some European Antichrist in a future third temple than it is to your view.
On a side note, which might not apply to you in this case, what I have to wonder in general, can't some interpreters read things properly at times? In Daniel 8, verses 2-8 are not shut up and reserved for the time of the end, it is verses 9-14, 23-25 that are. After all, verses 2-8 are fulfilled before verses 9-14, 23-25 are. And that's significant since A4E can't be meant in verses 2-8 for certain no matter what. Nor can he be meant in verses 9-14, 23-25 if those verses are shut up and reserved for the time of the end. The days of A4E did not involve the time of the end. To insist they did is absurd.
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Zao is life
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It's not a statue image Paul is talking about in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 but a person - the man of sin / son of perdition making his appearance in the midst of a lawless church (the holy place or sanctuary of God), and rising up out of the lawlessness in the church. The type of this is the idol in the holy place of the physical temple placed there by A4E.
The image of Revelation 13 is the image of the beast. It's not the abomination of desolation in the holy place.
You probably already know this by now, pertaining to my view, that I see this being connected with AI. Since the devolpment of AI and the undeniable fact that it is not going away, that it will still be present when Christ returns, this tells me that AI is connected with this AOD, and that the image in question is likely pertaining to AI. But not in the way @Douggg reasons this image in a literal sense involving a literal temple.
Clearly, AI though still in it's infancy, is already beginning to resemble something that pretty much the entire world is awe stricken about. Except we haven't seen anything yet. Just wait until achieves artifical general intelligence, then artificial super intelliegence, followed by the last stage, Singularity. And that it is then in full control of the world.
And the fact AI robots are already a reality, just imagine a world with billions of these. They are pretty much indestructible. It's not like you are going to be able to shoot them with a gun and it's going to kill them. Maybe you can blow them to pieces with a bomb or something, but who is going to be blowing billions of them to pieces with bombs? Nobody, that's who, since that would contradict everything recorded in Revelation 13. Now imagine if some of these AI robots are used for the purpose of seeking out and killing anyone not wanting to comply with the rules set forth by the beast? None of this is science fiction anymore. These things are already a reality unless one wants to argue there is no such thing as AI robots.
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2Thessalonains 2:4 is the transgression of desolation act of Daniel 8:13, not the abomination of desolation statue image "set up" in Daniel 12:11-12 placed on the temple mount.
Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
You don't make timeline charts and diagrams because you can't. You don't have the computer graphics skills. And don't care to learn.
And you are not able to place events on a timeline in relation to other events, nor fit the fifteen end times times frames given in the bible in proper relation to each other.
Study this critical path (the red line) chart I made. Take note of the placement of the four horsemen of the Apocalypse.
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IOW, according to your logic though the Bible was written with words not charts, no one can then determine any timelines or anything like that unless they use charts to do so? Some of us couldn't care less about charts. Your charts mean absolutely zero to a lot of us, for one thing, because some of us can't even remotely make heads or tails out most of your charts. But even if we could, so what? Your charts prove zero since all they are is just your version of things.
The fact you take most of these things to be involving the literal, plus that you are Pretrib on top of that, you therefore already have zero credibility with a good majority of us. Then look at the way you belittle other believers---You don't make timeline charts and diagrams because you can't. You don't have the computer graphics skills. And don't care to learn.
So what if one doesn't care to learn any of those things. Maybe they have some skills of their own that you don't have. Maybe the reason you have none of those skills is because you don't care to learn them, whatever they might be? That's just reality in general. Not everyone might be interested in the same things. It's not unnatural for someone to not care to learn things that disinterest them.
For example. I don't care to learn to be a airplane pilot. For one thing, I am deathly afraid of heights. But even if I wasn't I still would not nor would ever care to learn to be an airplane pilot. There is nothing wrong with that. But if it comes to making charts, in your mind though, there is something wrong with that person if they have zero desire to learn how to make charts.
When you read someone's posts, do you start at the upper left corner of the text and read through down to the lower right hand corner of the text. And finally the last sentence.
The same method is used in reading this chart, following the red line. Down in the lower right hand corner of the chart is the last sentence equivalent.
I am not Pretrib but anytime rapture view. Anytime before the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist. For comparison, the pre-trib rapture chart is down below this one.
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specifically..... l a z y.
Making timeline charts is essential for understanding and discussing eschatology - the study of the end times - of those who attempt to teach others about the end times.
In high school, did your teachers use a black board ? A chart is like a black board.
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