OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[GracePeace]

You may choose to repeat error as often as you like and excuse why you actually don't know what you're talking about as often as you wish.

As you proceed it is a blessing. Because it lets us know who you are not.

If even Peter taught error (ie, he taught that only Jews could be saved, and that they all had to serve God by means of the Law--up until the corrective vision in Acts 10), who are you to think you have to be 100% correct about everything you assert just because you have the Holy Spirit? Humble yourself--you got this wrong!

 

[pandaflower]

If even Peter taught error (ie, he taught that only Jews could be saved, and that they all had to serve God by means of the Law--up until the corrective vision in Acts 10), who are you to think you have to be 100% correct about everything you assert just because you have the Holy Spirit? Humble yourself--you got this wrong!

My deepest sympathies.

Let me save you some time here.

I cannot be insulted. I do not receive that dark intent sent through lost channels.

 

[GracePeace]

My deepest sympathies.

Let me save you some time here.

I cannot be insulted. I do not receive that dark intent sent through lost channels.

"Deepest sympathies"? As you say, "keep it up--you're letting everyone know what you're made of"! LOL!
You're so obviously in the wrong, and you're uninterested in that fact--you care only about pretending you are right! Your behavior does not differ from the behavior of the Catholics you malign--when you're proven wrong, you don't care (for different reasons, yes, but you don't care)!

You put your foot in your mouth, making a spurious accusation, based on your misreading of my claim, and then attributing to me an argument I never made, and attacking that argument I never made. BRAVO! Now, try attacking the argument I ACTUALLY MADE! The reality is that you're sloppy, and you won't recognize your sloppiness, thinking you're too far above that, and that everything you say comes from God. Newsflash : you are not God, you make mistakes. HUMBLE YOURSELF!

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

By the by, has anyone thought to correct the first giant error in this thread?

Gnostic people did not,do not,believe in eternal salvation ,eternal security, in the first place.

The Gnostics, Gnosis=Knowledge, believe,believed, knowledge saves, saved, them from the trials of the world.


No kinship with our faith at all.

They believe in being saved and going to Heaven, but they follow doctrines of demons so they won't be found in God's Kingdom.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I agree Peter is the Rock the Church is built on, and how the Apostles decide--an example of this is when Paul, who says he is present with them in spirit when they gather together, has passed judgment on the brother, and has delivered him over to satan for the destruction of his flesh.

Oops, it was Paul who confronted Peter to his face that gave those words to Peter. Peter, in Acts, literally copies what Paul told him in Galatians 2. Who is Paul to study the Bible on his own and reject what ever Peter said? LOL And why does Peter submit to Paul?

Also, Peter taught error, unbeknownst to him--eg, that the dietary rules of the Law were to be kept, and that only Jews could be saved--so, even granting your "succession" from Peter assertion, just as Peter, you may be teaching error, unbeknownst to you, and someone else may know better.

Peter taught “Error” – or certain things had NOT yet been revealed to him yet?

Careful what you say about the inerrant Word of Almighty God . . .

Again, though, so that we don't lose the forest for the trees, the issue at hand is that you are impotent to defend your views using reason, so you resort to "my Church says so", which I reject, yet here you are pretending to respect logic, when, at the end of the day, you really ought to just say "my Church says so", because your argument doesn't go any further than that, since any logic that debunks your ignorance is just met with "my Church says so". You do not respect logic, and are not logical. You do not think, so quit pretending to be a thinker.

And that's why you're a disobedient servant.
Time for a Bible Lesson . . .

Jesus gave His Church supreme earthly Authority to speak on HIS behalf:
Matt 16:19
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt. 18:17-18
If he refuses to listen even to the CHURCH, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from US."

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

This is NOT optional.

 

[GracePeace]

Peter taught “Error” – or certain things had NOT yet been revealed to him yet?

Peter unknowingly taught and lived contrary to the ultimate reality / truth of the Gospel--as Paul says, "My conscience is clear, but I am not thereby acquitted, for it is the Lord [the Word of God] Who judges me." So, also, Peter's conscience was clear, and we see this dynamic permitted in Romans 14.
Nevertheless, what this means is that even if you wanted to say you were Peter's successors, the possibility is left open that you teach contrary to the ultimate reality and truth of the Gospel without knowing it--and if someone knows better than your clear conscience permits, they are not constrained to adhere to your teaching which is done in clear conscience, they are constrained, rather, to hold to what they know is true with their clear conscience.

Careful what you say about the inerrant Word of Almighty God . . .

And that's why you're a disobedient servant.

Again, you don't use logic, only "my Church says so", so I don't think I'm talking with a reasonable person.

Time for a Bible Lesson . . .

Jesus gave His Church supreme earthly Authority to speak on HIS behalf:
Matt 16:19
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt. 18:17-18
If he refuses to listen even to the CHURCH, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from US."

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

This is NOT optional.

Again, I only granted your claim to be "Peter's successors" (if such a thing exists) for the sake of argument, but I don't actually grant it--I have known God without you, and God has transformed my life without you, so this idea that I have to obey you, or else I can't have eternal life (know God Jn 17:3) is actually hilarious to me. Also, there are hundreds of millions of believers in the world who serve God through Christ, and you deny they are saved because they don't listen to you. I can't be bothered with this mess.

You really seem like a joke--"You can't know God without us! We declare it!" It's just too late--we already know and serve God!

And again you teach errors (eg, Mary as New Eve), so, no, I'm not going to join error.

 

[GracePeace]

Jesus gave His Church supreme earthly Authority to speak on HIS behalf:
Matt 16:19
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt. 18:17-18
If he refuses to listen even to the CHURCH, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from US."

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

This is NOT optional.

In the Epistle to the Romans, for instance, Paul didn't tell the Roman Jewish believers "OBEY WHAT I TELL YOU!", he reasoned with them--he preempted their Jewish, Scripture-based objections to his Gospel, and answered those arguments using Scripture and reason.

Jesus did the same--He engaged, and debunked his opponents using Scripture and reason, by God's power and grace.

If you really followed in the footsteps of men like Jesus and Paul, you would do the same--not mutely say "Aha, but THE CHURCH says!" No, you would use reason and Scripture. You don't. You do not follow their tradition.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Peter unknowingly taught and lived contrary to the ultimate reality / truth of the Gospel--as Paul says, "My conscience is clear, but I am not thereby acquitted, for it is the Lord [the Word of God] Who judges me." So, also, Peter's conscience was clear, and we see this dynamic permitted in Romans 14.
Nevertheless, what this means is that even if you wanted to say you were Peter's successors, the possibility is left open that you teach contrary to the ultimate reality and truth of the Gospel without knowing it--and if someone knows better than your clear conscience permits, they are not constrained to adhere to your teaching which is done in clear conscience, they are constrained, rather, to hold to what they know is true with their clear conscience.

Again, you don't use logic, only "my Church says so", so I don't think I'm talking with a reasonable person.

Again, I only granted your claim to be "Peter's successors" (if such a thing exists) for the sake of argument, but I don't actually grant it--I have known God without you, and God has transformed my life without you, so this idea that I have to obey you, or else I can't have eternal life (know God Jn 17:3) is actually hilarious to me. Also, there are hundreds of millions of believers in the world who serve God through Christ, and you deny they are saved because they don't listen to you. I can't be bothered with this mess.

You really seem like a joke--"You can't know God without us! We declare it!" It's just too late--we already know and serve God!

And again you teach errors (eg, Mary as New Eve), so, no, I'm not going to join error.

I never said that you had to bey ME. Talk about being unreasonable . . .

And you’re right – there ARE hundreds of milli0ns of people who believe they serve God on their own terms. However - Jesus wants you to serve Him on HIS terms.
Remember what He says to the “faithful” servant in Matt. 7 . . .

Matt. 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

The Body of Christ isn't a cur-throat, "every man for himself" scenario. It's a family setting where wew ALL help each other get there (1 Cor. 12).

 

[GracePeace]

I never said that you had to bey ME. Talk about being unreasonable . . .

And you’re right – there ARE hundreds of milli0ns of people who believe they serve God on their own terms. However - Jesus wants you to serve Him on HIS terms.
Remember what He says to the “faithful” servant in Matt. 7 . . .

Matt. 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

The Body of Christ isn't a cur-throat, "every man for himself" scenario. It's a family setting where wew ALL help each other get there (1 Cor. 12).

1. Yes, you said to obey your Church, and you basically represent your Church, so you're saying to submit to your word, because it is the word of your Church.

2. I agree--but you guys really are cut throat (perhaps not as much after Vatican II), whereas we've been granting that there are actual believers in both Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism from the start of the Reformation.

 

[BreadOfLife]

In the Epistle to the Romans, for instance, Paul didn't tell the Roman Jewish believers "OBEY WHAT I TELL YOU!", he reasoned with them--he preempted their Jewish, Scripture-based objections to his Gospel, and answered those arguments using Scripture and reason.

Jesus did the same--He engaged, and debunked his opponents using Scripture and reason, by God's power and grace.

If you really followed in the footsteps of men like Jesus and Paul, you would do the same--not mutely say "Aha, but THE CHURCH says!" No, you would use reason and Scripture. You don't. You do not follow their tradition.

Paul told the Thessalonians to that the ORAL teachings of the Church to be as binding on them as what is written:
2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from US."

He gave similar instructions to the Corinthians:
1 Cor. 11:2
"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you".

There was a definite hierarchy, as Paul explains:
2 Cor. 5:18-20:
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us.
WE implore YOU on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

1 Cor. 3:9
For WE are co-workers in God’s service; YOU are God’s field, God’s building.

 

[GracePeace]

Matt. 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Yeah, and I already know God--and I'm not relying on doing miracles or wonders.
Jesus's issue, here, is they are not righteous, or seeking after righteousness--they think service to God for God's glory, or glorifying God, or Christianity, consists in doing miracles and other supernatural acts, whereas service to God for God's glory, or glorifying God, or Christianity, consists in knowing God and making Him known by doing what is right. Doing right glorifies our Father in heaven (Mt 5; Jn 15).

 

[GracePeace]

Paul told the Thessalonians to that the ORAL teachings of the Church to be as binding on them as what is written:
2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from US."

He gave similar instructions to the Corinthians:
1 Cor. 11:2
"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you".

There was a definite hierarchy, as Paul explains:
2 Cor. 5:18-20:
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us.
WE implore YOU on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

1 Cor. 3:9
For WE are co-workers in God’s service; YOU are God’s field, God’s building.

Yeah, Paul explains one of his oral traditions to the Thessalonians : "you know our tradition when we were with you was anyone who didn't work didn't eat".

This is Genesis 3, where God says, "From the sweat of your brow, you will eat food" : Paul's "traditions" are similar, then, to the Jews' "traditions" (except Christ rejected Pharisaic "traditions")--ie, practical "halachot" that put the Scriptures into practice. So, again, we're back to "as it is written", and Scripture having primacy. We do not grant that you have carte blanche to fill in the gap ("tradition") with anything you please, just bc he said "tradition"--instead, we, again, resort to Scripture.

 

[BreadOfLife]

1. Yes, you said to obey your Church, and you basically represent your Church, so you're saying to submit to your word, because it is the word of your Church.

I don'tt have ANY Authorty over ANYONE - in OR ouot of the Church other than my children.
I'm simply sharing the truth. If you reject it - that's on YOU - not me . . .

2. I agree--but you guys really are cut throat (perhaps not as much after Vatican II), whereas we've been granting that there are actual believers in both Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism from the start of the Reformation.

And who are YOU to grant ANYTHING when it cones to faith??
That's not for YOU to determine.

 

[GracePeace]

I don'tt have ANY Authorty over ANYONE - in OR ouot of the Church other than my children.
I'm simply sharing the truth. If you reject it - that's on YOU - not me . . .

And who are YOU to grant ANYTHING when it cones to faith??
That's not for YOU to determine.

It's just a commentary on what you said--you claimed I thought Christianity was "cut throat", and I remarked that, rather, you all are the ones who are rather "cut throat".

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yeah, and I already know God--and I'm not relying on doing miracles or wonders.
Jesus's issue, here, is they are not righteous, or seeking after righteousness--they think service to God for God's glory, or glorifying God, or Christianity, consists in doing miracles and other supernatural acts, whereas Christianity is doing what is right.

No - His issue is that they are disobedient and NOT doing His will or the will of the Father.
They're just going through the motions on their OWN terms . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yeah, Paul explains one of his oral traditions to the Thessalonians : "you know our tradition when we were with you was anyone who didn't work didn't eat".

This is Genesis 3, where God says, "From the sweat of your brow, you will eat food" : Paul's "traditions" are similar, then, to the Jews' "traditions" (except Christ rejected Pharisaic "traditions")--ie, practical "halachot" that put the Scriptures into practice. So, again, we're back to "as it is written", and Scripture having primacy. We do not grant that you have carte blanche to fill in the gap ("tradition") with anything you please, just bc he said "tradition"--instead, we, again, resort to Scripture.

No - "Traditions" in the context that Paul is teaching ARE the Word of God.
He places their Oral teachigs (Teaditions) on the SAME level as Scripture.

 

[GracePeace]

No - His issue is that they are disobedient and NOT doing His will or the will of the Father.
They're just going through the motions on their OWN terms . . .

Well, actually, Jesus is explicit, so "do not add or remove" (Deut 4:2) : He said many would come to Him, and say "Lord, Lord", and try to claim rightness with Him due to supernatural acts they had done, but He will say "No, you do not practice righteousness."

So, how can we do God's will for His glory? Obey His commands--that is righteousness.
What is God's command? "Believe in the Name of His Son and love one another." (1 Jn 3:23,24).
So, if we believe in the Name of His son and love one another, we abide in Christ, and we bear fruit, and this glorifies God (Jn 15; Mt 5), and Jesus will not say "Depart evildoers".

 

[GracePeace]

No - "Traditions" in the context that Paul is teaching ARE the Word of God.
He places their Oral teachigs (Teaditions) on the SAME level as Scripture.

Yeah, Paul's tradition, as explained, seems to just be Scripture-based practical halachot--the "tradition" he revisits in the epistle to the Thessalonians is "whoever does not work does not eat", and this is traceable to Genesis 3, where God says "by the sweat of your brow you will eat food" (ie, you will only eat if you work--you will not eat if you do not work).

 

[BreadOfLife]

It's just a commentary on what you said--you claimed I thought Christianity was "cut throat", and I remarked that, rather, you all are the ones who are rather "cut throat".

Tbere's nothing "cut-throat" about the family-setting that Scripture places on the Body of Christ.
It's the Protestant "Me for myself" a d "YOU for yourself" teaching that is unbiblical.

If you're NOT helping as many people get to Heaven as you can - you are NOT doing God's will (Matt. 7:21-23) . . .

 

[GracePeace]

Tbere's nothing "cut-throat" about the family-setting that Scripture places on the Body of Christ.
It's the Protestant "Me for myself" a d "YOU for yourself" teaching that is unbiblical.

When you say "all of those outside our Church are hellbound--and we don't have to defend anything we say using Scripture or reason, you just have to dumbly follow", that's "cutthroat".