OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[BreadOfLife]

Well, actually, Jesus is explicit, so "do not add or remove" (Deut 4:2) : He said many would come to Him, and say "Lord, Lord", and try to claim rightness with Him due to supernatural acts they had done, but He will say "No, you do not practice righteousness."

WRONG.
God was telling Israel not to add or remove from His commands:
Deut. 4:2
Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.

He also said to obey His CHURCH (Matt. 18:18) but you refuse to do that.
Show me the verse where He said to obeu ONLY to what was written.

So, how can we do God's will for His glory? Obey His commands--that is righteousness.
What is God's command? "Believe in the Name of His Son and love one another." (1 Jn 3:23,24).
So, if we believe in the Name of His son and love one another, we abide in Christ, and we bear fruit, and this glorifies God (Jn 15; Mt 5), and Jesus will not say "Depart evildoers".

And what does it mean to "bellieve" in Christ?
James 2:19 warns us that even the DEMONS do that much. To believe i christ is to surrender to Him and OBEY.

 

[GracePeace]

No - "Traditions" in the context that Paul is teaching ARE the Word of God.
He places their Oral teachigs (Teaditions) on the SAME level as Scripture.

Well, actually, Jesus is explicit, so "do not add or remove" (Deut 4:2) : He said many would come to Him, and say "Lord, Lord", and try to claim rightness with Him due to supernatural acts they had done, but He will say "No, you do not practice righteousness."

Clearly, the contrast is between supernatural works and righteousness--ie, it is possible to do miracles, but not love (love fulfills the righteous requirement of the Law (Ro 8:4, 13:8-10)), just as Paul says, "if I have faith to move all mountains, but I have not love, I am nothing." (1 Co 13)--those who think glorifying God is by means of performing supernatural works, and those who adhere to the true teaching that it is performing righteousness in peace that glorifies God.

 

[BreadOfLife]

When YOU say "all of those outside our Church are hellbound--and we don't have to defend anything we say using Scripture or reason, you just have to dumbly follow", that's "cutthroat".

I've NEVER said this - nor do I believe it.
Why are you bearing false witness?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yeah, Paul's tradition, as explained, seems to just be Scripture-based practical halachot--the "tradition" he revisits in the epistle to the Thessalonians is "whoever does not work does not eat", and this is traceable to Genesis 3, where God says "by the sweat of your brow you will eat food" (ie, you will only eat if you work--you will not eat if you do not work).

That is an ignorant statement.

Oral Tradition is just that - ORAL. It wouldn't be wriitten doen in Scripture.
Paul was telling them that they shgoul;d hold fast to everything that wasa written as well as what was spoken ORALLY.

 

[GracePeace]

WRONG.
God was telling Israel not to add or remove from His commands:
Deut. 4:2
Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.

Don't you contend that it was Jesus (God) speaking to Israel--but you think that applied ONLY to the Torah, but it's OK for you to add and remove from Jesus's Words today? Are you admitting you're doing that?

He also said to obey His CHURCH (Matt. 18:18) but you refuse to do that.

Again, when Paul wrote the Roman Church, he didn't say "OBEY ME!", he used Scripture and reason to SERVE them by answering their queries and objections to his Gospel--you don't follow his "tradition", you, rather, break from it.

Show me the verse where He said to obeu ONLY to what was written.

I didn't say that--I said that just because there is a word "tradition" there doesn't mean that opens a black hole that can receive every Tom Dick and Harry's opinion.
When Paul mentioned a "tradition" they'd received not by letter but orally he said "our tradition was that whoever didn't work didn't eat", which is traceable to Genesis 3 "by the sweat of your brow you will eat food".
The Pharisees had "traditions", as well--a binding code of behavior, which is, today, referred to as "halacha"--culled from Scripture, whereby they believed they were executing the will of God, thus preserving their connection to God, in their daily lives.
Paul's "tradition", therefore, from what I can see, was Scripture-culled practical rules.

And what does it mean to "bellieve" in Christ?
James 2:19 warns us that even the DEMONS do that much. To believe i christ is to surrender to Him and OBEY.

Yeah, I didn't say "believe", I said "believe and love one another" (1 Jn 3:23,24)--Christ commands "love as I have loved you", so we obey Him if we do that--and "love fulfills the entire law" (Ro 8:4, 13:8-10).

Remember, again and again, I do not hold to "faith alone".

 

[GracePeace]

I've NEVER said this - nor do I believe it.
Why are you bearing false witness?

Yeah, you're saying we have to submit to your Church in all matters, and that we are "disobedient" if not--that's what you told me--but disobedience is rebellion, and rebellion is unrighteousness, and "the unrighteous do not inherit God's Kingdom", so maybe you were saying something you didn't know you were saying.

 

[GracePeace]

That is an ignorant statement.

Oral Tradition is just that - ORAL. It wouldn't be wriitten doen in Scripture.
Paul was telling them that they shgoul;d hold fast to everything that wasa written as well as what was spoken ORALLY.

Who says oral tradition can't ever be written, and written can't be ever be spoken?
You regularly speak the written Word of God, and we can find what you call oral tradition written down.
LOL
Again, Paul revisited, in writing, an oral tradition he had while he was with them--"whoever doesn't work doesn't eat", which is a "tradition" that puts into practice God's Word found in Genesis 3. That is similar to what the Pharisees used to do--they had "traditions" whereby they thought (wrongly) they were putting God's Word into practice, thus retaining their place within God's people, vouchsafing God's presence for themselves (God's presence is only with His people Ex 33:15+).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Who says oral tradition can't ever be written, and written can't be ever be spoken?
You regularly speak the written Word of God, and we can find what you call oral tradition written down.
LOL
Again, Paul revisited, in writing, an oral tradition he had while he was with them--"whoever doesn't work doesn't eat", which is a "tradition" that puts into practice God's Word found in Genesis 3. That is similar to what the Pharisees used to do--they had "traditions" whereby they thought (wrongly) they were putting God's Word into practice, thus retaining their place within God's people, vouchsafing God's presence for themselves (God's presence is only with His people Ex 33:15+).

And WHO is making that claim?
Certainly NOT me.

What I DID say was that Paul was differentiating between the two in 2 Thess. 2:15 and placing them ON PAR with each other. And why do you keep repeating the SAME thought about the one who does not work should not eat? That wasn;t the ONLY thing that Paul taught orally.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yeah, you're saying we have to submit to your Church in all matters, and that we are "disobedient" if not--that's what you told me--but disobedience is rebellion, and rebellion is unrighteousness, and "the unrighteous do not inherit God's Kingdom", so maybe you were saying something you didn't know you were saying.

I've never mnade that statement.
Again - you are bearing FALSE witness . . .

 

[GracePeace]

And WHO is making that claim?
Certainly NOT me.

Yeah, you objected to my citing "whoever doesn't work doesn't eat" on the basis that it had been written down. Here is where you said it:

That is an ignorant statement.

Oral Tradition is just that - ORAL. It wouldn't be wriitten doen in Scripture.
Paul was telling them that they shgoul;d hold fast to everything that wasa written as well as what was spoken ORALLY.

Moving on to your next objection...

What I DID say was that Paul was differentiating between the two in 2 Thess. 2:15 and placing them ON PAR with each other.

Yeah, there is a difference between oral tradition and Scripture--Paul's oral tradition "whoever doesn't work doesn't eat" is not a direct quote from Scripture, but a rule that the community was to live by, BECAUSE Scripture has this principle ("by the sweat of your brow you will eat food") in it.
Scripture contains the raw principle, "tradition" is the practical application.

And why do you keep repeating the SAME thought about the one who does not work should not eat? That wasn;t the ONLY thing that Paul taught orally.

Why? Because it is a case study--this way, we can see the contents of Paul's meaning when he refers to "tradition".
Why is that important? Because I don't want to be told someone else's opinion on the definition of "tradition".
If I let anyone define "tradition", that opens Pandora's Box--anything could be claimed to be "tradition".
This way, however, it prevents you from importing anything you want, and falsely claiming it is "tradition", because it shows what Paul was doing (basically, inventing "halachot" for Christians)--basically, putting Scripture into practice, as so much of what he taught was "as it is written".

 

[Behold]

because he didn't walk in faith in the truth of that love shown to him

A false gospel states that God requires of you, a certain behavior, as a TRADE, for His Son's Sacrifice.

So, that is not True.

See, all come to God as SINNERS........and God saves them "while we were YET SINNERS">....... because God's Salvation is a FREE GIFT.

And so once its taught that you must "do something" to keep the Gift, then you have denied The Cross, because you have denied God's GRACE by substituting it for WORKS.

This is : Galatians 1:8

 

[BreadOfLife]

Don't you contend that it was Jesus (God) speaking to Israel--but you think that applied ONLY to the Torah, but it's OK for you to add and remove from Jesus's Words today? Are you admitting you're doing that?

No - it's just that He NEVER said to hold ONLY to that which was written down.
He also never stated that AL would be revealed in writing . . .

Again, when Paul wrote the Roman Church, he didn't say "OBEY ME!", he used Scripture and reason to SERVE them by answering their queries and objections to his Gospel--you don't follow his "tradition", you, rather, break from it.

But he DID say that to the Thessalonians and the Corinthians.
Was he just "kidding"??

I didn't say that--I said that just because there is a word "tradition" there doesn't mean that opens a black hole that can receive every Tom Dick and Harry's opinion.
When Paul mentioned a "tradition" they'd received not by letter but orally he said "our tradition was that whoever didn't work didn't eat", which is traceable to Genesis 3 "by the sweat of your brow you will eat food".
The Pharisees had "traditions", as well--a binding code of behavior, which is, today, referred to as "halacha"--culled from Scripture, whereby they believed they were executing the will of God, thus preserving their connection to God, in their daily lives.
Paul's "tradition", therefore, from what I can see, was Scripture-culled practical rules.

That was "A" tradition - not ALL Oral Tradition.
You have a child's understanding of the Scriptures . . .

Yeah, I didn't say "believe", I said "believe and love one another" (1 Jn 3:23,24)--Christ commands "love as I have loved you", so we obey Him if we do that--and "love fulfills the entire law" (Ro 8:4, 13:8-10).

Remember, again and again, I do not hold to "faith alone".

That's NOT enough.
You must TRUST in Him, SURRENDER to Him, WORSHIP Him, SERVE Him.

I know PLENTY if peope who say they "believe" in Him and are the most loving peop,e I know.

 

[GracePeace]

I've never mnade that statement.
Again - you are bearing FALSE witness . . .

Yeah, you did...

And that's why you're a disobedient servant.
Time for a Bible Lesson . . .

Jesus gave His Church supreme earthly Authority to speak on HIS behalf:
Matt 16:19
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt. 18:17-18
If he refuses to listen even to the CHURCH, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from US."

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

This is NOT optional.

Not sure why you would try to deny you said I was disobedient, since it is all written down, and I can pull the reference.

 

[GracePeace]

Your false gospel is stating that God requires of you, a certain behavior, as a TRADE, for His Son's Sacrifice.

So, that is not True.

See, all come to God as SINNERS........and God saves them "while we were YET SINNERS">....... because God's Salvation is a FREE GIFT.

And once you try to teach that you must "do something" to receive or keep the Gift, then you have denied The Cross, because you have denied God's GRACE by substituting it for WORKS.

This is : Galatians 1:8

Your complaint, based on your assumption that "faith alone" is true, is duly noted.
Irrespectively, the Scripture stands : the man who does not WALK in truth/Spirit is rejected, his faith is forgotten, and he has to pay his debts by being tormented, revealing the aspect of God's character of wrath, for the glory of God, until he has repaid the debt of glory he owes.

 

[GracePeace]

No - it's just that He NEVER said to hold ONLY to that which was written down.
He also never stated that AL would be revealed in writing . . .

Remember, your gripe was that I quoted "do not add or remove" when referring to Jesus's explanation of why the people were being rejected in Mt 7--you claimed it was because they were doing things their own way, not listening to your Church, and were going through the motions, but Jesus said it was because they thought glorifying God was by means of miraculous signs and wonders, whereas it was through doing righteousness.

But he DID say that to the Thessalonians and the Corinthians.
Was he just "kidding"??

That was "A" tradition - not ALL Oral Tradition.
You have a child's understanding of the Scriptures . . .

The issue is that we have a case study in "tradition"--I don't let you define it, I let Paul define it.
When I look at his definition, I don't find your definition, I find something else.

That's NOT enough.
You must TRUST in Him, SURRENDER to Him, WORSHIP Him, SERVE Him.

Yeah, agreed.

I know PLENTY if peope who say they "believe" in Him and are the most loving peop,e I know.

OK?

 

[GracePeace]

A false gospel states that God requires of you, a certain behavior, as a TRADE, for His Son's Sacrifice.

So, that is not True.

See, all come to God as SINNERS........and God saves them "while we were YET SINNERS">....... because God's Salvation is a FREE GIFT.

And so once its taught that you must "do something" to keep the Gift, then you have denied The Cross, because you have denied God's GRACE by substituting it for WORKS.

This is : Galatians 1:8

Your complaint, based on your assumption that "faith alone" is true, is duly noted.
Irrespectively, the Scripture stands : the man who does not WALK in truth/Spirit is rejected, his faith is forgotten, and he has to pay his debts by being tormented, revealing the aspect of God's character of wrath, for the glory of God until he has repaid the debt of glory he owes.

Notwithstanding, it is obvious that your approach has utility and merit.

You could make an argument that the focus of our trust ought to be Christ, because the servant who did not keep that in mind also did not walk in accordance with that truth about God's love (but, rather, he was unforgiving--did not love as God had loved him), and Peter says those who are not growing in godliness have "forgotten that their former sins were forgiven"--therefore, practically, yes, we should emphasize and magnify the love of God expressed in Christ, HOWEVER, that does not mean that we ignore the reality that men will be repaid eternal life only if the righteous requirement of the Law is being fulfilled in them by God by dint of them walking in the truth ("the Spirit is the truth"). There is a harvest Christ will look for after having sown seed, and some will not yield it (Mt 25).

I'm not saying your approach, imperfect as it may be, does not have good results--it does have good results--only that your explanations fall short, and lead to confusion, and, therefore, do not help. Your argument is bad, but your conclusion (trust God) seems good.

 

[pandaflower]

Peter taught “Error” – or certain things had NOT yet been revealed to him yet?

Careful what you say about the inerrant Word of Almighty God . . .

And that's why you're a disobedient servant.
Time for a Bible Lesson . . .

Jesus gave His Church supreme earthly Authority to speak on HIS behalf:
Matt 16:19
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt. 18:17-18
If he refuses to listen even to the CHURCH, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from US."

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

This is NOT optional.

They've not been careful thus far.

Their agenda is not good.

 

[GracePeace]

A false gospel states that God requires of you, a certain behavior, as a TRADE, for His Son's Sacrifice.

It's interesting that you say that, because, one time, after having spent weeks of fasting, and following the Spirit, preaching on the corner of the street, obeying to the max (well, my max, anyway), God said I was trying to save myself, and what about my sins, and that I couldn't repay Him, but it was just Jesus, which was really confusing.

I really don't understand, because when I try to just trust in Jesus, I never get to be in God's presence, and I am ashamed of not doing good, but walk in shame of my nakedness, but when I do good, I am told God doesn't accept it. What's left? Do good, but do it because God loves you. But I don't feel the love. I always hear "son", "peace", "rest", "relax", but I'm just not the mental shape God wants me to be. Still trying to figure Christianity out.

 

[GracePeace]

They've not been careful thus far.

Their agenda is not good.

So says "Sloppy Joe"... but neither you nor your "enemy of my enemy is my friend" Catholic buddy can prove anything.

 

[GracePeace]

A false gospel states that God requires of you, a certain behavior, as a TRADE, for His Son's Sacrifice.

So, that is not True.

See, all come to God as SINNERS........and God saves them "while we were YET SINNERS">....... because God's Salvation is a FREE GIFT.

And so once its taught that you must "do something" to keep the Gift, then you have denied The Cross, because you have denied God's GRACE by substituting it for WORKS.

This is : Galatians 1:8

I would really love if you could actually make a case, and persuade me of some truth that I am not aware of.

With regard to Galatians 1:6+, no, that doesn't prove your case, because Paul's argument is never "Christ alone", but, as soon as Paul delivers them from bondage to the Law (5:1)--remembering that Pharaoh was told, "Let My people go, that they may serve Me"--he immediately says "serve one another by faith working through love".
Paul doesn't, even once, say "Christ alone", he says "having begun by the Spirit are you now being perfected by the flesh?", so the issue is "how to become perfect", or "how to live as a Christian", and the answer is "serve one another", never "Christ alone"--and we know you're "condemned" if you don't walk in faith (Ro 14:23), which "works by love" (Gal 5), because "each man must be fully convinced in his own mind" (Ro 14:5) (this is how we know we are loving, since "love believes all things", and "faith works by love"), and "God's righteousness [apart from the Law] is revealed from faith to faith" (Ro 1:17).

You really do not have a good handle on Scripture.