Only the Apostles were Predestined

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Earburner

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Ah Yes the typical verbage all people use who reinterpret Scripture. sorry but that is not what is written. So unless you can show the authority you have been given by God to retranslate the Words He inspired, I am going to stick with what He wrote.

I guess Paul is in the shallows as well. After all He wrote this:

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Jesus must be in teh shallows as well:
Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Same with Peter:

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.


If you only knew that you are moouthing the same wordsa that the JW's, Moromons< David Koresh, Jim Jones and other cult leaders and wannabe's have used to try to show they knew better than what is written.
For all of what you impose upon, in that which you have quoted, I can assure you that what God has revealed to me is 100% agreeable to His words by His Spirit, and not that of anything that is of the wisdom of men.

1 Cor. 2
[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

[6] Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect [those who are born again]: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
[7] But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world, unto our glory:
[8] Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

[9] But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
[10] But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
[11] For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
[15] But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
[16] For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
 

rodm777

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People believe it is UNFAIR, for God to chose... What does the bible show us?

Genesis / The Fall, if you think that was an accident, you have a real problem.

No Fall, no Israel, no law, no grace, no Jesus on the cross, no resurrection, no heavenly supper, no Rev Ch1-21... Satan was in the Garden! Why?

Free will vs sovereignty.

David says "Lord I wish to build you a house" God says "NO!"... For you will have a son. This is a prophetic word (future event). Now God says to you... "Watch me fulfill MY OWN WORDS... One day David is on his rooftop, and sees a woman bathing... (You know the rest of the story).

Now could David have arranged these circumstances? NOPE!

How about Moses stumbling upon the burning bush, or seeing the man, who he murdered... Freak accident? Just at the right place accidently, in order to fulfill God's will?

How about Jonah... "Jonah I want you to go to Nineveh" What's Jonah say? NOPE, I will not go.... So if FREE WILL IS KING....

How come God doesn't say "Well OK, if that is what you want, then I can't do anything about it, in fact for me to even try, would be to violate my own law of "FREE WILL"... But we know this is not true, God says to himself, "Oh yes you will go" God arranges a fish.
 

rodm777

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Jesus kind of settles sovereignty vs free will when He says "not my will but thine.

God can be trusted to make all the right decisions, even when it causes us pain or sorrow. This understanding comes from a relationship with God, to protest might betray a lack thereof.
 

rodm777

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Im going by how I understand the scriptures which are the authority. And I dont see the posters comment in the scripture. Im suppose to judge what people say as regars the things if Christ 1 Jn 4

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
Bright I agree.

And it is true the scriptures are a true foundation, and needed just like the OT and NT says....

But I would submit there is another side of the word that people don't always acknowledge.

In fact what did the OT mean by the use of the words "The Word". Most of the time it was spoken "The word of the Lord came unto..."

Also Genesis CH1 God said "Light be and Light became". This is tied directly to John CH1. And that very word/words BECAME (past tense) Flesh. Now we know this doesn't mean the scriptures created the worlds, or became flesh. So the spoken word is as evident as the written text.

How else do we know that its the spoken word that never FAILS?

Well the bible, even in NT times was not readily available, you couldn't just have a copy of the torah in each home, no one could afford it, and who could read it, being poor and uneducated.

This extended all the way until the 14th century, with the development of the printing press.

This means mankind, excluding the spoken word, went centuries without the "Word of God". So did God's Word FAIL? Of course not, God's spirit was at work in the lives of the ecclesia all over the world.
 

1stCenturyLady

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I see you resist the Gospel as well. You resist T in Tulip you resist the Gospel of Gods Grace. Not good
The T of Total Depravity AFTER Jesus takes away our sin and fills us with His presence is heresy. You deny the gospel of the power of God, Romans 1:16-17. Where do you think Jesus takes away our sin? From its source - The sin nature/our old man, Romans 6:5-7. We are clean. John 15:3. Don't forget the circumcision without hand in Colossians 2. What do you think was cut off? From where? It is the sin. From our nature. Placed there when Adam sinned. Sin has no power over us anymore because Jesus defeated the devil. 1 John 3:8-9.

Open your mind to what 1 John 1:8 really means. 1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Open your brain! How much sin is left after Jesus cleanses us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS? And please Read Romans 7 in context. verses 5-6 is freedom from the flesh and the law, so don't try to come back in Calvinistic ignorance of verses 14-25 that are people UNDER the law, and STILL in the flesh BEFORE Christ in the next chapter who are not in the flesh but in the Spirit! Romans 8:1-9

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
 

rodm777

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The T of Total Depravity AFTER Jesus takes away our sin and fills us with His presence is heresy. You deny the gospel of the power of God, Romans 1:16-17. Where do you think Jesus takes away our sin? From its source - The sin nature/our old man, Romans 6:5-7. We are clean. John 15:3. Don't forget the circumcision without hand in Colossians 2. What do you think was cut off? From where? It is the sin. From our nature. Placed there when Adam sinned. Sin has no power over us anymore because Jesus defeated the devil. 1 John 3:8-9.

Open your mind to what 1 John 1:8 really means. 1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Open your brain! How much sin is left after Jesus cleanses us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS? And please Read Romans 7 in context. verses 5-6 is freedom from the flesh and the law, so don't try to come back in Calvinistic ignorance of verses 14-25 that are people UNDER the law, and STILL in the flesh BEFORE Christ in the next chapter who are not in the flesh but in the Spirit! Romans 8:1-9

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
It is true that sin is not the issue, it is unbelief. Sin is in the flesh, not in the new seed. Sin, the flesh and the law were taken to the cross.
 

brightfame52

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The T of Total Depravity AFTER Jesus takes away our sin and fills us with His presence is heresy. You deny the gospel of the power of God, Romans 1:16-17. Where do you think Jesus takes away our sin? From its source - The sin nature/our old man, Romans 6:5-7. We are clean. John 15:3. Don't forget the circumcision without hand in Colossians 2. What do you think was cut off? From where? It is the sin. From our nature. Placed there when Adam sinned. Sin has no power over us anymore because Jesus defeated the devil. 1 John 3:8-9.

Open your mind to what 1 John 1:8 really means. 1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Open your brain! How much sin is left after Jesus cleanses us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS? And please Read Romans 7 in context. verses 5-6 is freedom from the flesh and the law, so don't try to come back in Calvinistic ignorance of verses 14-25 that are people UNDER the law, and STILL in the flesh BEFORE Christ in the next chapter who are not in the flesh but in the Spirit! Romans 8:1-9

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
I see you resist the Gospel as well. You resist T in Tulip you resist the Gospel of Gods Grace. Not good. BTW Total Depravity has to do with man by nature, how we are born into the world.
 

Ronald Nolette

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For all of what you impose upon, in that which you have quoted, I can assure you that what God has revealed to me is 100% agreeable to His words by His Spirit, and not that of anything that is of the wisdom of men.

1 Cor. 2
[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

[6] Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect [those who are born again]: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
[7] But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world, unto our glory:
[8] Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

[9] But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
[10] But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
[11] For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
[15] But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
[16] For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Sorry but that does not refer to retranslating His Word and giving new definitions to what is written. The natural man cannot understand the bible as written, and you have been hoodwinked into believing that God has hidden His Word from His precious children and we need to read between th elines or what it says beneath what is written. That is nothing more than Satans lie he posed to Eve in the garden when he asked Eve' "did God really say"?

Yo uare doing the same by saying what god inspired is not what He meant.

What this is is human pride. You are making yourself some mystical Christian guru who has been given "special revelation", and requiring people to come to you to "really understand" what god meant for wht is written is not what He meant.

This is what Charles Taze Russel, Joseph Smith, Mary Eddy Baker, Father Divine, Sun Yung Moon, David Koresh, Jim Jones et al have done as well as thousands of others in the 2 millennia since the church was born. So many other with these special revelations they got from God disagree with you! Why should we accept your new meanings over theirs and not the words God inspired to communicate His message.

He is not hiding it from His children. You require people have the bible, the Spirit and you to know god. Welcome to the world of cult leader wannabe's
 

Earburner

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Sorry but that does not refer to retranslating His Word and giving new definitions to what is written. The natural man cannot understand the bible as written, and you have been hoodwinked into believing that God has hidden His Word from His precious children and we need to read between th elines or what it says beneath what is written. That is nothing more than Satans lie he posed to Eve in the garden when he asked Eve' "did God really say"?

Yo uare doing the same by saying what god inspired is not what He meant.

What this is is human pride. You are making yourself some mystical Christian guru who has been given "special revelation", and requiring people to come to you to "really understand" what god meant for wht is written is not what He meant.

This is what Charles Taze Russel, Joseph Smith, Mary Eddy Baker, Father Divine, Sun Yung Moon, David Koresh, Jim Jones et al have done as well as thousands of others in the 2 millennia since the church was born. So many other with these special revelations they got from God disagree with you! Why should we accept your new meanings over theirs and not the words God inspired to communicate His message.

He is not hiding it from His children. You require people have the bible, the Spirit and you to know god. Welcome to the world of cult leader wannabe's
As a born again Christian, I have every right and privilege to walk in the Lord according to the words of 1 Cor. 2:5-16, thus proving that the mind of Christ is within me.
For you to rant and rail against it, is your own vain attempt to fulfill it by your own human wisdom.
God's words without the understanding by His Holy Spirit, are just human letters on a page.
 

Ronald Nolette

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As a born again Christian, I have every right and privilege to walk in the Lord according to the words of 1 Cor. 2:5-16, thus proving that the mind of Christ is within me.
For you to rant and rail against it, is your own vain attempt to fulfill it by your own human wisdom.
God's words without the understanding by His Holy Spirit, are just human letters on a page.
As His mind is in me. But that does not give you the right to reinterpret the word of God to suit your own agenda!

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

what you really want isa the right to do what you wish with gods Word and have no one tell you yuou are wrong.

If you would do a little study you would find out you are walking the same path that all false teachers have walked!

1. Special Revelations
2. Spiritual meanings not readily known through His Word.
3. People required to turn to you to find the truth.
4. the words written are not what is really meant.
5. You place yourself beyond judgment ( you grossly misinterpret this passage)

Why should we accept your "special revelations" and reject the hundreds of others.

why should we reject what God inspired the builders of the church wrote in clear instructions to accept your new interpretations????????????????
 

Earburner

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As His mind is in me. But that does not give you the right to reinterpret the word of God to suit your own agenda!

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

what you really want isa the right to do what you wish with gods Word and have no one tell you yuou are wrong.

If you would do a little study you would find out you are walking the same path that all false teachers have walked!

1. Special Revelations
2. Spiritual meanings not readily known through His Word.
3. People required to turn to you to find the truth.
4. the words written are not what is really meant.
5. You place yourself beyond judgment ( you grossly misinterpret this passage)

Why should we accept your "special revelations" and reject the hundreds of others.

why should we reject what God inspired the builders of the church wrote in clear instructions to accept your new interpretations????????????????
1. I have no private interpretations. What I speak of is always backed up by the KJV and the TR Greek text, literally and/or figuratively, as the Greek allows for it.
2. See my answer #1.
3. I present the understanding given to me, whereby people can make their own decision to agree or disagree.
4. What is a parable, or anything that can be understood figuratively?
5. 1 Cor. 2[15] But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Having the mind of Christ, I can only agree with what the Holy Spirit teaches. Therefore judgment falls not on me, but rather on those who choose to ignore it.

I contend with no one but those who are taught doctrines fabricated by "the wisdom of men".
 

Aunty Jane

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People believe it is UNFAIR, for God to chose... What does the bible show us?

Genesis / The Fall, if you think that was an accident, you have a real problem.
In order for free will to be exercised, God’s children have choices, and each choice has it own consequences.
For example, what choices were placed before satan, Eve and then Adam? What choices could have changed the outcome, but still stayed within God’s purpose? Think about it…..

If the devil had had second thoughts about his rebellious course and had a last minute change of heart, no temptation would have been put before Eve, and hence no division of loyalties for Adam, prompting him to side with his disobedient wife instead of obeying his God.
Or….
If Eve had refused the devil’s offer of becoming “like God, knowing good and evil” for herself….Adam would not have joined her in the rebellion, but satan would have received his punishment alone, perhaps in the privacy of heaven, unknown to humans. There could be no forgiveness for his rebellion.
Or….
If Adam had refused the fruit offered by his wife, then Eve would have suffered a penalty along with the one who deceived her, but Adam would not have died. God would have to have given him another mate to continue the human family, the way things were meant to be….to “fill the earth” with their children.

So God having contingency plans for any and all decisions that his children may have made, would still have preserved free will and in the end, completed his purpose for them here on the earth.

Just because God can know the future, doesn’t mean he always creates it.
God acted only once….everything he did after creation was a “reaction” to the choices his children made of their own free will. He warned them about the penalty and thus all were deserving of the punishment.
The innocent ones caught up in this awful outcome were Adam’s, as yet unborn, children. They inherited the imperfection that was now passed on to all of Adam’s offspring. Sin is what causes death, so if Adam had not sinned, he never would have died. It was never God’s intention to take any humans to heaven…which is why he created us to live here on a very carefully prepared planet….which supplied everything that humans would need to live eternally in mortal flesh. “The tree of life” was the guarantee.
It did not include sickness, aging, suffering or death, just wonderful, everlasting life in paradise, with more than enough to entertain us and keep us happily occupied forever, enjoying God’s creation.
No Fall, no Israel, no law, no grace, no Jesus on the cross, no resurrection, no heavenly supper, no Rev Ch1-21... Satan was in the Garden! Why?
Satan was the covering cherub stationed in the garden of Eden as an overseer….a position of responsibility, (Ezekiel 28:13-17) but it exposed him to the possibility that these lower human creatures could see him as a god. The Bible tells us in that scripture that he was once magnificent, but in his rebellious course he defected from the service of his God and decided that he wanted servants of his own who would give him the worship he had come to envy.
That is why satan was in the garden.

So, no satan would mean no need for Israel or it’s laws…..no need for a savior to rescue Adam’s children and no ceremonial things to remind us of his selfless course in dying for us.
Free will vs sovereignty.
Yes, but it didn’t have to happen that way. If the rebels had simply respected God’s Sovereignty, and obeyed his instructions (which imposed no hardship on them whatsoever) they would never have brought pain, suffering and death on the human race, and a third of the angels would not have joined satan in opposing God’s Sovereignty over them either.

No fall would have meant no death, as disobedience was the only cause. There was no natural cause of death mentioned to Adam (Gen 3:19)……but obedience would have resulted in “living forever” right here where God created us. (Gen 3:22-24)
No fall would have meant no reason for Jesus to come to our rescue since there would have been nothing to rescue us from.
If no one died, then the resurrection of the dead would never have been necessary. And since the Kingdom is the means by which “the restoration of all things” was to come about…….what is to be restored?
Everlasting life in paradise on earth….no need for any human to go to heaven to bring us back into reconciliation with our Maker. Look at what we lost….that is what we get back.
David says "Lord I wish to build you a house" God says "NO!"... For you will have a son. This is a prophetic word (future event). Now God says to you... "Watch me fulfill MY OWN WORDS... One day David is on his rooftop, and sees a woman bathing... (You know the rest of the story).

Now could David have arranged these circumstances? NOPE!
Are you serious? You mean to tell us that God arranged for David to commit adultery and murder just so he could have a son to build him a house? Both of his crimes carried the death penalty in Israel, but since God himself conducted David’s legal case, his complete repentance merited God’s forgiveness. The Messiah was to be a son of David. According to James, David allowed his lust to lead him to disobey his God. (James 1:13-15) Could it be that satan used a beautiful woman to tempt David and ruin God’s prophesy concerning him? God arranged the way out…not the way in.
How about Moses stumbling upon the burning bush, or seeing the man, who he murdered... Freak accident? Just at the right place accidently, in order to fulfill God's will?
Did Moses need to stumble upon anything? Right from his infancy, God had a role for him, just as he did for Jacob. God has a way of re-routing his way in order to thwart the devil’s attempts to derail his purpose and those who will play key roles in its outworking.
How about Jonah... "Jonah I want you to go to Nineveh" What's Jonah say? NOPE, I will not go.... So if FREE WILL IS KING....

How come God doesn't say "Well OK, if that is what you want, then I can't do anything about it, in fact for me to even try, would be to violate my own law of "FREE WILL"... But we know this is not true, God says to himself, "Oh yes you will go" God arranges a fish.
There was so much more to Jonah’s story than the fish….All these examples teach us something about God and how he has a way of bringing his will to a completion without overriding free will, which always has consequences.

Humans are unique in that they are the only creatures whom God endowed with imagination. That is the ability to discern past, present and future events and place them in logical order. Even if we have never experienced a penalty, we can know what to expect through someone else’s experience, which we can then mentally transfer to ourselves and use it as a deterrent.

When God told Adam that he would die if he ate the forbidden fruit….Adam had never seen a human die….but since he had in all probability seen animals die, (nowhere does the Bible tell us that animals can live forever) he knew what death meant….it was not the gateway to another life…but the cessation of it.
Life and death are opposites, but the devil’s first lie is still promoted in the idea that you “surely will not die” and hence the belief in an immortal soul….something the Bible does not teach.

We are also endowed with a conscience, that small inner voice that tells us when something is right or wrong…..and woe betide us if we ignore it….trouble will surely follow…..eventually ending in regret.
 
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Earburner

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It is true that sin is not the issue, it is unbelief. Sin is in the flesh, not in the new seed. Sin, the flesh and the law were taken to the cross.
Are you saying that sin is no longer of or in our mortal flesh, and therefore our flesh is no longer capable of sinning because of Jesus dwelling within us? Might I remind you of a situation whereby no man (or woman) permanently abides, but rather is a violator of it daily:
Mat. 5
[28] But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

And how about this one?
[32] But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Here is the wonder, the miracle and the joy of Jesus' sacrificial death and His resurrection.
Through faith in Christ's death for me, I am made to be sin-LESS before the Father. However, as long as I am on this earth in my mortal flesh, I am never going to be sin-FREE.
 

brightfame52

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Country
United States
Gender
Male
Not intended to offend. What is your definition of Grace? Mine is grace is the"power of God," just as the gospel is.
Thats what you did. And as stated, the Truths of TULIP I consider to be elements of the Gospel of Gods Grace.